Interference Random Movie Talk X: Dogs and Cats Living Together... Mass Hysteria!

[lazarus]

Cool, thx. I'm not sure what it has on the back yet; the thing should arrive in the mail sometime next week.

 

[LMP]

I just tried watching 88 Minutes (awful) and it got me thinking - has Al Pacino done a decent movie this decade? I can't think of one. What's the deal? Has he lost it, has he decided to quite acting, anyone?

Insomnia was pretty good, that was in 2002.

 

[deep]

"Angels in America"

he did a good Roy Cohn-
Cohn was 'over the top' in real life, too.

 

[LMP]

Guys, I've been working on a major "What If?" scenario regarding the entire Batman series. Yes, it's geeky as hell, but I may unveil it soon and see what you think. It'll have the theoretical cast, synopsis, director, and general explanation attached.

 

[lazarus]

What if Alec Baldwin had been cast instead of Michael Keaton? Well you would have had a believable Bruce Wayne and not some wild-eyed freak that would never be taken seriously as a high society figure, that's for sure.

 

[Dalton]

Forgive me if I already posted this recently, but are the indoor shots in the Godfather II ridiculously dark? Obviously it's an amazing movie, but I watched it the other day for the first time in HD and was surprised at how dark everything still was.

Thoughts?

Also no one adequately addressed the Pacino (and DeNiro) question. Is there a reason why they haven't been getting cast in better movies or better parts? I'm thinking they could both be filling the same kind of role that Nicholson played in The Departed. Yes?

 

[mad1]

Im going to watch Terminator Salvation tonight and it better be fuking good!

 

[LMP]

What if Alec Baldwin had been cast instead of Michael Keaton? Well you would have had a believable Bruce Wayne and not some wild-eyed freak that would never be taken seriously as a high society figure, that's for sure.

I like Alec Baldwin a hell of a lot, but the one guy who I've really latched onto is Mel Gibson. Talk about someone who could not only be an intimidating Batman, but a fantastic Bruce Wayne as well. Like we've discussed before, Keaton would've been a fantastic Joker.

One of the biggest gripes I have with the initial run of Batman films is how much of a simpering toady Commissioner Gordon is. Seriously? Pat Hingle is the best that they could do? Fuck that shit, two words for you: Paul Newman. Offer him Brando money and you've got part of your major veteran presence and a similar amount of gravitas as Nicholson's Joker, since he'd be replaced by Keaton.

Forgive me if I already posted this recently, but are the indoor shots in the Godfather II ridiculously dark? Obviously it's an amazing movie, but I watched it the other day for the first time in HD and was surprised at how dark everything still was.

Thoughts?

Also no one adequately addressed the Pacino (and DeNiro) question. Is there a reason why they haven't been getting cast in better movies or better parts? I'm thinking they could both be filling the same kind of role that Nicholson played in The Departed. Yes?

Yeah, Gordon Willis lit those scenes extremely dark. The one scene that comes to mind is when Michael's speaking to his mom by the fireplace.

DeNiro was supposed to play Nicholson's part in The Departed, but was too busy working on The Good Shepherd.

I made the mistake of watching Righteous Kill in its entirety. It's a lame thriller by every stretch of the imagination, and seeing two of the greatest actors of their generation choose that as their co-starring project makes it even worse. Good lord.

Im going to watch Terminator Salvation tonight and it better be fuking good!

In short, it's not.

 

[mad1]

why? is it Bale or the whole movie Lemon?

FUK!

 

[LMP]

Almost everything. Don't let me deter you from seeing it, there was a decent-sized group of people who enjoyed it.

 

[Lancemc]

Guys, I've been working on a major "What If?" scenario regarding the entire Batman series. Yes, it's geeky as hell, but I may unveil it soon and see what you think. It'll have the theoretical cast, synopsis, director, and general explanation attached.

Kind of makes me want to remake my old "Fantasy Filmmaker" thread. Never quite figured out the best way to do it though. Would be something totally free-form and casual if it happened again, but it could still be fun.

 

[LMP]

Kind of makes me want to remake my old "Fantasy Filmmaker" thread. Never quite figured out the best way to do it though. Would be something totally free-form and casual if it happened again, but it could still be fun.

That thread and a discussion I had with a friend spurred this whole idea. Alright, here it goes:

Let's say it's 1986 and I'm a producer at Warner Bros. After working on a string of hits, I'm given full reigns to pick any property I want and develop it. The Dark Knight Returns has just come out and re-ignited everyone's interest in a serious Batman film. I know that Batman's the crown jewel of DC's canon and want to treat it with the utmost respect, so I hire a group of consultants: comic book writers, DC execs, any major players to pitch a Batman story. In an unprecedented move, I plan to make a 6-film Batman series, one being released every three years, with a consistent arc and vision, and the ability to sign actors and directors on for the long-term.

The one director I set my eyes on to at least carry out the first two films is a guy who's becoming a master of the crime genre. At its roots, Batman is a gritty noir, and it'll retain that '40s-style pulp, but try and capture some of the edge that the character gathered in the late '70s/early '80s. The only man for the job is Michael Mann. Think of his approach to Manhunter: the methodical and brilliant Graham puts himself in the shoes of the killers he tracks down, questions his sanity along the way, and has to face a guy as fucked up as The Tooth Fairy? That feels similar to Batman in a way, no?

And here we go:

BATMAN (Dir. Michael Mann, 1989)

Starring:
Mel Gibson as Bruce Wayne/Batman
Michael Keaton as The Red Hood/The Joker
Sean Young as Vicki Vale
Paul Newman as Commissioner Jim Gordon
Denzel Washington as Harvey Dent
Albert Finney as Rupert Thorne
Michael Caine as Alfred Pennyworth

Like I said before, I think that Gibson is the perfect pick to capture the duality of Bruce Wayne and Batman. He can be both brutal and vulnerable, unsure of why he's begun this path in his life, but feeling that it's the right thing to do. He'd be suave as hell as Bruce while being believable enough to kick ass as Batman, plus, he would play up being the master detective as he is in the comics and animated series. Lethal Weapon coming out in '87 turned him from a cult icon into a megastar, and I understand why Warners didn't want to cross-pollinate two of their franchises with the same guy (and Lethal Weapon 2 hit in the same summer), so let's just say that he can co-exist as the lead in both if they come out at different times.

Keaton should've been the Joker to begin with, so there's that.

Sean Young was originally cast as Vicki Vale, and I think he's a better fit for the part anyway. She'd be less glamorous, sure, but probably play it from a more intellectual standpoint than Basinger (Bay-singer, Bass-inger?) did, not a simpering toady.

Speaking of toadys, again, fuck Pat Hingle. Like Superman before it, this Batman's idea of a formative veteran presence would be rounded out with two fucking awesome actors: Newman as Gordon, and Caine as Alfred. Newman's Gordon would have a more formative role due to the bigger emphasis on the mob activity in this film. Caine's at the perfect age at this time to be Alfred, who should be in his late '50s/early '60s and you know he'd sign on to do it.

Comic-staple Rupert Thorne would replace the Carl Grissom role and would be set-up as a foil to idealistic D.A. Harvey Dent. Miller's Crossing hasn't come out yet, but goddamn if Albert Finney isn't a sweet choice to play the biggest mob boss in town. I also love the idea of Denzel as Harvey, who has the charisma to pull it off, but also the fiery personality to set-up the duality of his future alter-ego; plus, I think he'd work off of Gibson fairly well. It's conceivable for him to do both this and Glory in '89, too, so that's cool.

This film would follow a story fairly close to Batman '89, but with some key differences apart from what I mentioned above:

+ Harvey Dent is set-up in this film to have a huge dramatic arc similar to his counterpart in The Dark Knight (You could argue that this was almost done in the Burton series, but that got done fucked up real quick...)
+ The Joker doesn’t die, sent to Arkham Asylum; like his character in The Dark Knight, tries to control the mob, but the old guard is not ready to let go of control.
+ The Red Hood, a low-level criminal employed by the mob, inspired by “The Batman,” becomes The Joker after falling into a vat of chemicals; He also doesn't kill Batman's parents. (!!!)
+ The Joker in the end is sent to Arkham Asylum, which becomes a major player later on in the series

The only problem I have with these ideas is that they're influenced by stuff like Dark Victory, The Long Halloween, etc... which wouldn't have been released yet. Really what this is serving to do is trying to adapt a similar tone and seriousness of the Nolan series with the aesthetic of the comics and Animated Series. Maybe audiences wouldn't have been ready for that yet, but there's no way that a Mann-directed Batman film wouldn't at the very least have been intriguing.

 

[If you shout...]

What if Alec Baldwin had been cast instead of Michael Keaton? Well you would have had a believable Bruce Wayne and not some wild-eyed freak that would never be taken seriously as a high society figure, that's for sure.

Two or three years ago, a good friend of mine was in a campus bar at Illinois State University and talking casually to a chick he already knew. Like, just talking about class and so forth--no funny business of any kind. Everybody had had a few to drink, though, by this point, and her boyfriend (who was meeting her at the bar) didn't know who my friend was or why he and the girlfriend were separated from the group of friends, further down the bar, talking and laughing by themselves. Again, all parties were quite drunk.

Well, my buddy's back was to the entrance, and he didn't see the boyfriend come in, take stock, stalk towards them, grab my friend by the shoulder, turn him around, and blast him in the face with a right hook. Relatively unfazed and without missing a beat, my boy gets up, grabs his beer bottle, smashes it on the bar, points it at the dude, and shouts, "YOU WANNA GETS NUTS??? LET'S GET NUTS!!!"

Before anything else could happen, he was bumrushed by a cadre of employees/security types/level-headed folk and ejected from the bar. The guy who punched him in the face suffered no such fate.

For this story alone, I will forever love Michael Keaton as Batman.

 

[LMP]

So Batman was a commercial and critical smash, and Mann's satisfied enough to want to go ahead and work on the sequel, but no further. Instead, he'll put out the next one, then start working on Heat. Sure, this timeline fucks with Last of the Mohicans, which sucks, but it's worth it.

The reverberations of The Joker's actions really shake up Thorne and mob, and with the mayoral elections coming up, Thorne believes that putting one of their own in office would go a long way to assure their safety within Gotham. Dent knows that they're crooked, but has no way to prove it. Thorne puts up his eccentric associate, Oswald Cobblepot, aka The Penguin, as the candidate for mayor, and he wins. Meanwhile, Bruce begins romancing Selina Kyle, not knowing that she's also the elusive burglar, The Catwoman, so that's all playful and cool.

Dent exposes Cobblepot and Thorne for election fraud, and just when he's about to convict them, gets a face-full of acid and goes apeshit and becomes Two-Face. His spree of vigilantism can only be stopped by Batman, but Batman can't stop Two-Face from wreaking havoc at the traveling circus, killing a family of trapeze artists known as The Flying Graysons. The youngest son, Dick, survives, and keeps following Batman around town. Batman, realizing the parallels between himself and Dick, takes him as his ward as Bruce, and Dick doesn't know he's Batman.

Shit goes down, Two-Face eventually kills Rupert Thorne and Batman stops him before he kills Cobblepot. Appealing to his humane side, Batman's able to talk Two-Face down and allow him to turn himself in and be committed to Arkham, along with Cobblepot, who's sent there for a bullshit reason. Bruce and Selina find out each other's identities and realizing that they've become sworn enemies, can't be with each other anymore.

By the end of the film, the mob's been wiped out and there's a vacuum of power to be filled, and it kind of indicates that more of these crazies will start showing up soon.

BATMAN: THE CAPED CRUSADER (Dir. Michael Mann, 1992)
Mel Gibson as Bruce Wayne/Batman
Denzel Washington as Harvey Dent/Two-Face
Michelle Pfieffer as Selina Kyle/Catwoman
Christian Bale as Dick Grayson (He's the right age and fits the Robin/Nightwing mold better than Batman; this series would be so awesome and conclusive that it wouldn't require a Nolan reboot, so keep that in mind)
Albert Finney as Rupert Thorne
Bob Hoskins as Oswald Cobblepot/The Penguin
Paul Newman as Commissioner Jim Gordon
Michael Caine as Alfred Pennyworth

At this point, the title of Batman is there for promotional purposes. The film would open with the logo and The Caped Crusader acts as the real title.

 

[lazarus]

Sounds interesting, but the third installment will wind up being a major letdown like in every other film saga (with the exception of LOTR).

 

[LMP]

That's what I'm trying to avoid. The third installment would mark the final shift toward the old, mob-enforced Gotham to one dominated by the supervillains and such, but it's not a definitive end by any means. The films sort of bleed into each other, and if anything, act as couples as opposed to trilogies.

Since Gotham is making this shift, I think it's fair to bring in Burton to handle the next two films, which focus way more on the Arkham side of things. As Gotham continues to get more fucked up, Bruce's outlook on everything begins to skew as well. Bruce's life continues to be consumed by Batman, and you barely see him outside of detective mode. The Riddler's introduced as the main villain, who acts as a Zodiac-type figure, threatening the city with a series of riddles, conundrums, etc... It's actually close to in-line with what The Joker did in TDK, but from a colder, more intellectual standpoint. The Riddler doesn't necessarily "team-up" with Two-Face, although he springs him suspiciously from Arkham as a part of a mad scheme that he has to get Batman. Dick Grayson discovers Bruce's secret identity and becomes Robin. Vengeance as a major theme comes into play between Dick and Two-Face, and plays out a hell of a lot better than in Forever. Hugo Strange is introduced as the head physician of Arkham, who shows signs of being a major asshole, but isn't suspected of anything yet. The other psychologist roles are either hinted at or shown briefly at the end.

BATMAN: THE DARK KNIGHT (Dir. Tim Burton, 1995)
Mel Gibson as Bruce Wayne/Batman
Kevin Spacey as Edward Nygma/The Riddler
Denzel Washington as Two-Face
Christian Bale as Dick Grayson/Robin
Paul Newman as Commissioner Jim Gordon
Ben Kingsley as Dr. Hugo Strange
Michael Caine as Alfred Pennyworth
Nicole Kidman as Dr. Pamela Isley
Helena Bonham Carter as Dr. Harleen Quinzell
Gary Oldman as Dr. Jonathan Crane

This leads into the next film, which is essentially a movie version of both the comic and video game of Arkham Asylum. After Jim Gordon's kidnapped, Batman is lured to and trapped in Arkham and has to wrestle not only with his foes, but also his own sanity. So yeah, this is going to be dark as shit, but hella exciting, too. Hugo Strange is the mastermind of everything, with his subordinates (Poison Ivy, Scarecrow) and other inmates (The Joker/Harley Quinn, The Riddler) controlling different portions of the hospital. Barbara Gordon's introduced, and she's incredibly resourceful, helping Robin get into Arkham and ultimately save Batman from himself and do awesome shit.

BATMAN: ARKHAM ASYLUM (Dir. Tim Burton, 1998)
Mel Gibson as Bruce Wayne/Batman
Ben Kingsley as Dr. Hugo Strange
Christian Bale as Dick Grayson/Robin
Michael Keaton as The Joker
Kevin Spacey as The Riddler
Paul Newman as Commissioner Jim Gordon
Charlize Theron as Barbara Gordon
Gary Oldman as Dr. Jonathan Crane/Scarecrow
Nicole Kidman as Dr. Pamela Isley/Poison Ivy
Helena Bonham Carter as Dr. Harleen Quinzell/Harley Quinn
Michael Caine as Alfred Pennyworth

This one sounds like it's on the verge of a character, or at least, a villain, overload. If they're treated in a similar capacity as how Scarecrow is in Begins, I think it has a chance of working. The Arkham device does allow for a character like The Joker to come back and have a fairly prominent role again, and that leads into the following film which I'm still trying to work with right now.

 

[lazarus]

You lost me at Tim Burton. I don't care what the story is focusing on, his style is too overt to blend well with whatever Mann began. Someone with a more consistent track record of solid films would make more sense. Hell, if it's coming out in 1995, why not use Fincher? He certainly knows how to do the twisted stuff. Seven came out the same year, and it's better than anything Burton ever made, or will make.

 

[powerhour24]

Sounds interesting, but the third installment will wind up being a major letdown like in every other film saga (with the exception of LOTR).

The Bourne Ultimatum?

 

[lazarus]

I know it was very well-received, but personally I felt what was fresh in Supremacy got kind of old by this film. I liked it, but I wasn't over the moon.

And I also like the first film the most.

 

[LMP]

You lost me at Tim Burton. I don't care what the story is focusing on, his style is too overt to blend well with whatever Mann began. Someone with a more consistent track record of solid films would make more sense. Hell, if it's coming out in 1995, why not use Fincher? He certainly knows how to do the twisted stuff. Seven came out the same year, and it's better than anything Burton ever made, or will make.

God, cannot believe I forgot about Fincher. I guess I left him out because of Seven, but Mann's filmography can be skewed a bit, so can Finch's. Good call, holy shit. Apart from that, what do you think of the story, casting, etc...?

 

[powerhour24]

I know it was very well-received, but personally I felt what was fresh in Supremacy got kind of old by this film. I liked it, but I wasn't over the moon.

And I also like the first film the most.

Supremacy is my favorite far and away, but Ultimatum was still an excellent thrill ride, well above most Hollywood sequels.

 

[lazarus]

God, cannot believe I forgot about Fincher. I guess I left him out because of Seven, but Mann's filmography can be skewed a bit, so can Finch's. Good call, holy shit. Apart from that, what do you think of the story, casting, etc...?

I can't believe you agree with me. And what's ironic is that you cast Spacey in the villain role and Seven still didn't come to mind!

I like what you've done very much. And Burton would certainly give things some visual panache. But I feel he it would also undo the aesthetic that Mann would bring to the table, whereas Fincher would be able to move things from the hyperreal to the more distorted vibe of the next two films with more subtlety.

Arkham Asylum is one of my fav graphic novels, so I'm definitely on-board with that. And to get back to Burton, his imagination is a bit too sanitized and high school goth for me; it's dark in color only, never dirty enough to suggest something truly disturbing. Whereas Fincher took a real world setting and showed things slowly slipping into chaos and madness.

 

[LMP]

I can't believe you agree with me. And what's ironic is that you cast Spacey in the villain role and Seven still didn't come to mind!

I like what you've done very much. And Burton would certainly give things some visual panache. But I feel he it would also undo the aesthetic that Mann would bring to the table, whereas Fincher would be able to move things from the hyperreal to the more distorted vibe of the next two films with more subtlety.

Arkham Asylum is one of my fav graphic novels, so I'm definitely on-board with that. And to get back to Burton, his imagination is a bit too sanitized and high school goth for me; it's dark in color only, never dirty enough to suggest something truly disturbing. Whereas Fincher took a real world setting and showed things slowly slipping into chaos and madness.

First of all, thanks for the feedback.

I had the nagging feeling that I was leaving a director out, since that was a last-minute sort of approach. His film would be a blend of Seven and Zodiac... double face-palm for me.

Burton kind of lingered as a choice due to his visual acumen, like you said, and since it's still in the period where he was at least a viable filmmaker, he deserves to be in the conversation, not that you discounted him totally. Great point on the Mann to Fincher shift.

A combination of taking a class on Gothic lit and discussing Burton's work with friends has made me come to a similar conclusion as well. I'll stand by a handful of his films based on their enjoyment level, but really the only two that have succeeded in conveying strong complex emotional statements are Returns and Ed Wood; it's a shame that weren't as highly regarded when they first came out... another major "What If?" scenario.

So I guess now's as good of a time to talk about the final two films in this hypothetical series. The follow-up to Arkham details the apparent death of Batman at the hands of his arch-nemeses, The Riddler (the mastermind), The Joker (the wildcard), and The Penguin (the benefactor). Imagine the one-sheet being Batman's tattered cape over a gravestone, how ominous would that be? Dick and Barbara, who's now become Batgirl, are left to try and rid the town of this new evil team. Here's where this idea gets awesome, in my mind: It opens with the death of Batman, and in a Godfather Part II-esque non-linear style, details Bruce's time in the League of Shadows, under the tutelage of Ra's al-Ghul, and Dick's attempt at following in Batman's footsteps as the protector of Gotham. Talia al-Ghul is a major figure, too, and she and Bruce fall in love. The biggest component here is the introduction of The Lazarus Pit, which was used to resurrect Ra's after Bruce apparently kills him in the flashback, and by Talia to bring back Bruce from the grave. One director who I'd not only love to see do a superhero film, but is a master of a cohesive non-linear narrative, is Interland favorite Steven Soderbergh.

The two main problems I have with this is that I still want to keep Gibson as Bruce, but want to flashback to a time before the first film, so he'd have to appear at least 10-15 years younger; also, I have absolutely no idea who to cast as Talia.

BATMAN: REBORN (Dir. Steven Soderbergh, 2001)
Mel Gibson as Bruce Wayne/Batman
Christian Bale as Dick Grayson/Robin/Nightwing
Jeremy Irons as Ra's al-Ghul
Jennifer Connelly??? as Talia al-Ghul
Kevin Spacey as The Riddler
Michael Keaton as The Joker
Bob Hoskins as The Penguin
Charlize Theron as Barbara Gordon/Batgirl
Paul Newman as Commissioner Jim Gordon
Michael Caine as Alfred Pennyworth

The next film would detail the al-Ghul's return into Bruce's life and serve as the closing chapter in this story of Batman. Ra's plans destruction on a global scale, starting with his nemeses home-town, the twisted mess that is Gotham. Talia's torn between her love for Bruce and allegiance to her father. Meanwhile, brilliant scientist Dr. Victor Fries (Daniel Day-Fucking-Lewis) searches for a cure to his wife's degenerative disease, but in the process turns himself into Mr. Freeze. His vengeance towards figures in Gotham, who shut down his research funding, serves as a way for him to meet with Ra's, who promises to save his wife via The Lazarus Pit and wishes to exploit Freeze's technology for his personal gain. In some fight, Barbara's paralyzed and becomes Oracle. In the end, Bruce finally comes to terms with balancing his life between that and being Batman, at least as much as he can, and does it in a badass fashion.

THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS (Dir. Steven Soderbergh, 2004)
Mel Gibson as Bruce Wayne/Batman
Christian Bale as Dick Grayson/Nightwing
Jeremy Irons as Ra's al-Ghul
Daniel Day-Lewis as Dr. Victor Fries/Mr. Freeze
Jennifer Connelly??? as Talia al-Ghul
Charlize Theron as Barbara Gordon/Batgirl/Oracle
Paul Newman as Commissioner Jim Gordon
Michael Caine as Alfred Pennyworth

I'm not sold on the title, but wanted to use it somewhere within the series. Maybe someone else has a better idea, but yeah, that's what I've got.

 

[lazarus]

At some point, wouldn't you want to see Miller's graphic novel with that title filmed itself? Since it inspired the whole resurgence of Batman in the first place?

 

[LMP]

Possibly. The thing I like the most about the Nolan series is that it pulls from so many different sources or storylines without adapting one singular text - a little Dark Victory/Long Halloween here, a little Killing Joke there, and so on. If something like TDKR were to happen, it would have to be after the DC Universe has asserted itself as a viable film series. I can't imagine it without the presence of Superman or Green Arrow, but you'd have to have it fit their chronology as well.

Plus, it was the best title I could think of for that particular film, which is by no means definitive.

 

[mad1]

 

[phillyfan26]

I feel like there's going to be a movie sometime about how every sports writer in this era is an egotistical douche, and if that does happen, Patton Oswalt needs to play Jay Mariotti.

/random

 

[lazarus]

Good call on that casting. I used to be a huge, huge Mariotti fan when he first started and I was still living in Chicago. Mainly because he wasn't your typical idiotic Chicago sports fan who finds no fault with the city's teams. He openly criticized Ditka (and arguably spearheaded the man's eventual firing), as well as the Bulls during their championship runs.

A breath of fresh air in that city in the early 90's, believe me. Though he certainly seemed to have turned into a caricature when I later saw him regularly on Around the Horn.

 

[Dalton]

This lengthy discussion about Batman has left me with one question: did someone remove all the porn from the internet?

 

[UberBeaver]

This lengthy discussion about Batman has left me with one question: did someone remove all the porn from the internet?

That sounds like the work of: