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When did Hillary ever have a cult-like adoration?


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You don't think the likes of Lena Dunham or people such as Peter Daou didn't have a cult-like adoration of Hillary? Yes, it was also very evident with Trump. I don't think there should be any issue with admitting this.
 
he hasn't got it yet - him and Valls are thru to the next round of voting which is on the 29th! hopefully he will though...

it's a nightmare, what with Valls coming over as a "Blairite" and Fillon as a "Thatcherite" it would feel like re-living some of the worst in British politics - i've been thru that once, don't want to again LOL

Valls and Fillon could physically merge and it wouldn't make a difference. :lol:
 
You don't think the likes of Lena Dunham or people such as Peter Daou didn't have a cult-like adoration of Hillary? Yes, it was also very evident with Trump. I don't think there should be any issue with admitting this.


Well Daou was a former advisor, so I can understand loyalty, but no I really never saw it.

Honestly I saw that more in Trump and Sanders supporters than anything else. Hell, maybe that's what Hillary was missing? Obama's support was always labeled 'cult-like', 'celebrity', or whatever, so maybe that's the only way to win in modern day America. But Hillary never had that, and if she did she didn't have enough. I think for the most part Hillary was looked at as a practical vote, a safe vote compared to Trump, we know what we're getting type of vote. If Hillary didn't have the baggage(deserved and fabricated) she would have easily won.

That being said, I think moving forward the party needs a young combination of Biden/Sanders/Obama in order to excite.


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You don't think the likes of Lena Dunham or people such as Peter Daou didn't have a cult-like adoration of Hillary? Yes, it was also very evident with Trump. I don't think there should be any issue with admitting this.
But who gives a crap about Lena Dunham?

The only candidate with "Cult like adoration" in this election is our new orange leader. He can do no wrong and tell no lies in the minds of many of his supporters. Just look at the recent polling numbers from PPP amongst trump supporters

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That's some crazy shit right there.

Do I think Hillary was a perfect candidate? Absolutely not. Should she have not taken the rust belt for granted? Absolutely.

She also dominated every debate, and won the popular by a 3 million vote margin, and was winning in every poll going into election day.

She also had to deal with unwarranted, baseless attacks coming from all angles, including the director of the FBI 10 days before the election. Make no mistake, the Comey letter brought the election back within range for Trump to pull off the upset. All the polling numbers back this up.

And let's not understate that her opponent did things that would disqualify almost every other candidate in the history of the republic... and still won.

And his margin of victory in the rust belt combined couldn't fill Michigan's football stadium. He threaded the needle through a combination of increased rural voting, decreased urban voting, gerrymandering and voter supression.

If you were to pick a generic candidate, tell the party base that the candidate was going to win all three debates by healthy margins and lead in every single poll going into election day... every single member of that party would sign up for that on day 1.

Best candidate? Probably not. Mistakes made? Always. Worst campaign ever? Not even close.

The Dems do have issues; mainly in their continued fractured base that is still fighting the primary.

But also in that they allowed the Republicans to set the rules of the game over the past 6 years. They allowed districts to be redrawn, and yes, as a party, didn't do enough for rural Americans who have been struggling mightily due to deindustrialization. They need to find a better way to speak to this group of people.
 
Well Daou was a former advisor, so I can understand loyalty, but no I really never saw it.

Honestly I saw that more in Trump and Sanders supporters than anything else. Hell, maybe that's what Hillary was missing? Obama's support was always labeled 'cult-like', 'celebrity', or whatever, so maybe that's the only way to win in modern day America. But Hillary never had that, and if she did she didn't have enough. I think for the most part Hillary was looked at as a practical vote, a safe vote compared to Trump, we know what we're getting type of vote. If Hillary didn't have the baggage(deserved and fabricated) she would have easily won.

That being said, I think moving forward the party needs a young combination of Biden/Sanders/Obama in order to excite.


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I think at the very least there was an attempt to build this sort of personality for Hillary. In the case of Daou, his support bordered (or even passed) the hysterical - in his case, unhinged as far as his devotion went (and I loved his constant lawyer threats whenever someone brought up his fascist militia past).

There's so much bombast in the US election season that perhaps the 'cultification' of main party candidates is inevitable.
 
I truly hope the gains in smaller government will justify surrendering basic human rights and dearly held and communicated Christian principles.

'Protecting the unborn' is touted as a 'Christian' principle, yet it does not seem to apply to refugee children facing certain death, or for that matter, adults. Very Christian like.

Trumpists, what is your explanation/excuse for this?

I'm willing to engage in a good debate. But if you ignore this as you have all other posts asking you questions, you will confirm my suspicions that you're perfectly ok with supporting a blatant racist.
 
But who gives a crap about Lena Dunham?

The only candidate with "Cult like adoration" in this election is our new orange leader. He can do no wrong and tell no lies in the minds of many of his supporters. Just look at the recent polling numbers from PPP amongst trump supporters

C3D_q3tVYAACiBQ.jpg


C3D_q3wUEAE1U4F.jpg


That's some crazy shit right there.

Do I think Hillary was a perfect candidate? Absolutely not. Should she have not taken the rust belt for granted? Absolutely.

She also dominated every debate, and won the popular by a 3 million vote margin, and was winning in every poll going into election day.

She also had to deal with unwarranted, baseless attacks coming from all angles, including the director of the FBI 10 days before the election. Make no mistake, the Comey letter brought the election back within range for Trump to pull off the upset. All the polling numbers back this up.

And let's not understate that her opponent did things that would disqualify almost every other candidate in the history of the republic... and still won.

And his margin of victory in the rust belt combined couldn't fill Michigan's football stadium. He threaded the needle through a combination of increased rural voting, decreased urban voting, gerrymandering and voter supression.

If you were to pick a generic candidate, tell the party base that the candidate was going to win all three debates by healthy margins and lead in every single poll going into election day... every single member of that party would sign up for that on day 1.

Best candidate? Probably not. Mistakes made? Always. Worst campaign ever? Not even close.

The Dems do have issues; mainly in their continued fractured base that is still fighting the primary.

But also in that they allowed the Republicans to set the rules of the game over the past 6 years. They allowed districts to be redrawn, and yes, as a party, didn't do enough for rural Americans who have been struggling mightily due to deindustrialization. They need to find a better way to speak to this group of people.





This was also the first election in 50 years that happened without the Voting Righrs Act.

Kinda interesting how three brutal GOP governors and their crackdown on black voters in WI, FL, and NC were the states that made the difference.
 
It's forbidden by the Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment to which the US acceded in 1994. Tellingly, the US are not party to the Optional Protocol to the Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment (OPCAT) of 2006. Nonetheless, there as an absolute abolition of torture worldwide.
So right now they are openly discussing breaking UN conventions in ways not even the Bush administration did.

Convention against Torture

Currently, the US are the largest contributor to the UN Voluntary Fund for Victims of Torture. Will be interesting to see if they keep their commitments in the future: http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Issues/Torture/UNVFVT/ListOfDonors.pdf


Thanks for the clarification.

Disgusting.


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So according to Connedville the Democrats got 5 million "illegals" to vote for Hillary?

But they weren't smart enough to put them in the proper states?

But wait aren't these the people angry because the "illegals" are stealing their jobs?

So all that wall shit was just about what then?


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A Twitter war with Mexico now, a US ally?! A war with someone is coming around the corner absolutely no doubt if this continues. What a complete mess.
 
A Twitter war with Mexico now, a US ally?! A war with someone is coming around the corner absolutely no doubt if this continues. What a complete mess.

i'm genuinely frightened about how our country will respond in the face of a crisis.

say what you will about George W Bush. in the immediate aftermath of 9/11, Bush did a tremendous job calming the nation's frayed nerves. the lead up to afghanistan was calculated, planned out, and, at least at first, executed well. of course it all fell apart from there with Iraq, but at the very least, in our country's greatest moment of need since Pearl Harbor, our President acted Presidential.

the fuck is Trump gonna do?
 
Yeah, but no.

She won by 3m votes. She basically performed to expectations, she was as good a candidate as the Dems had (which may indicate structural errors, but she was not uniquely bad), she decisively won 3 debates.

Obviously, mistakes were made, but no one -- no polls, anywhere -- foresaw the Trump wave amongst exurban white voters, how these voters were voting as if they were a minority. And keep in mind, Trump trounced an entire GOP field. You can say that some are letting Hillary off the hook, but blaming Hillary ignores what might be a very ugly truth about your friends and neighbors. And what is a very ugly truth about 21st century America.

I think the only candidate who would have beaten Trump in the EC would have been Obama.
I'm not naive enough to think there is only one reason Trump won, but in my view Hillary lost that campaign the minute she decided the best counter to "Make America Great Again" was "America is already great!" The economy as a whole has rebounded, but many, many voters in swing states haven't seen the benefits of that. Income inequality is part of that, the loss of manufacturing jobs to automation is another. And she's extolling the virtues of how great America is. Is that what those voters wanted to hear? It was all they got to hear, in many cases she didn't even bother to campaign in those areas.

Democrats need to recalibrate here in the worst way, and instead all I'm seeing is "Hillary ran a great campaign and nothing could be done to defeat Trump." Which is fucking insane.
When did Hillary ever have a cult-like adoration?
From a significant portion of the pundit class, for one. Daou, Marcotte, Eichenwald, Doyle, etc. Primarily in response to legitimate criticisms of Clinton from the left. That's where the whole "Bernie bro" thing started, if you remember.
 
i'm genuinely frightened about how our country will respond in the face of a crisis.

say what you will about George W Bush. in the immediate aftermath of 9/11, Bush did a tremendous job calming the nation's frayed nerves. the lead up to afghanistan was calculated, planned out, and, at least at first, executed well. of course it all fell apart from there with Iraq, but at the very least, in our country's greatest moment of need since Pearl Harbor, our President acted Presidential.

the fuck is Trump gonna do?
Bush was tame compared to Trump. This guy is well on his way to a world war and I'm not saying that out of hyperbole. Unless some of the GOP can reign him in (which really doesn't look likely) , I think some sort of war is inevitable. The South China Sea is a major flash point for example. Mexico is a US ally and he's treating them like shit. It's not even being done through diplomatic or private channels, he's trying to publicly humiliate another country on Twitter for God's sake!
 
i'm genuinely frightened about how our country will respond in the face of a crisis.



say what you will about George W Bush. in the immediate aftermath of 9/11, Bush did a tremendous job calming the nation's frayed nerves. the lead up to afghanistan was calculated, planned out, and, at least at first, executed well. of course it all fell apart from there with Iraq, but at the very least, in our country's greatest moment of need since Pearl Harbor, our President acted Presidential.



the fuck is Trump gonna do?


This. This so much.

I'm just desperately hoping that the next four years go by without a terrorist attack or an economic crisis.


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I'm not naive enough to think there is only one reason Trump won, but in my view Hillary lost that campaign the minute she decided the best counter to "Make America Great Again" was "America is already great!" The economy as a whole has rebounded, but many, many voters in swing states haven't seen the benefits of that. Income inequality is part of that, the loss of manufacturing jobs to automation is another. And she's extolling the virtues of how great America is. Is that what those voters wanted to hear? It was all they got to hear, in many cases she didn't even bother to campaign in those areas.



Democrats need to recalibrate here in the worst way, and instead all I'm seeing is "Hillary ran a great campaign and nothing could be done to defeat Trump." Which is fucking insane.



The electoral calculus -- which ultimately proved to be wrong -- was that Hillary would pick off the centrist GOP voter, which she did, and the black vote would pull her through in the rust belt states and the Hispanic vote in FL and NC. There's much more to the electorate than the WWC.

I'm not sure if a Democrat -- any Democrat -- would have won the WWC away from Trump, as they could not possibly have manipulated nostalgia and (implicitly white) nationalism in the way that he did (would alienate voters of color) and the WWC is hardly historically welcoming to redistributionist economics, Medicare for all, and free college for the kids in the economic rung just above them.

I also think we're emphasizing the WC part of his base a little too much -- although that was the difference in the rust belt -- and we need to think about how he was able to rally the W, and what that means.

There's a lot to be learned, and the D's can't wait for another black messiah to save them. I'd like to hear a redistributionist pitch that is going to work, but I think we run into racial divides that have historically been used to pitch the nearly poor against the poor.

Maybe a Biden could have done that? He speaks blue collar like W spoke Jesus? And retains the respect of the business class because they don't think he'll actually take away their second homes?

Dunno.
 
I'm not naive enough to think there is only one reason Trump won, but in my view Hillary lost that campaign the minute she decided the best counter to "Make America Great Again" was "America is already great!"
Trump said at least 15 things that would be more like likely to implode a campaign than that.
I don't think Hillary was the (main) problem.
 
The electoral calculus -- which ultimately proved to be wrong -- was that Hillary would pick off the centrist GOP voter, which she did, and the black vote would pull her through in the rust belt states and the Hispanic vote in FL and NC. There's much more to the electorate than the WWC.
That right there is one of the huge problems. The instinct is always to run to the middle, to "pick off the uncomfortable GOP voter" instead of rallying the base.

We've talked about it before, but the GOP has been excellent at moving the center further right at every turn. And the Democratic Party has been more than happy to follow. That's the part of the formula that needs to be changed, and it's the one that Democrats won't acknowledge.
 
That right there is one of the huge problems. The instinct is always to run to the middle, to "pick off the uncomfortable GOP voter" instead of rallying the base.



We've talked about it before, but the GOP has been excellent at moving the center further right at every turn. And the Democratic Party has been more than happy to follow. That's the part of the formula that needs to be changed, and it's the one that Democrats won't acknowledge.


My perspective may be a bit biased because I'm a centrist Democrat who would legitimately stand a chance of being turned in an election that was something like Huntsman or Romney or maybe Kasich vs. Sanders or Warren.

But... I honestly have a hard time buying that the DNC has really been following the GOP to the right. The DNC platform last year was markedly to the left of any previous DNC platform - more left than I really liked, though I was obviously still thrilled to support Hillary over the buffoon. Stuff that is mainstream DNC fodder now was not even remotely close to that 10 years ago, or certainly in the 90s. A Democratic president signed DOMA. Same-sex marriage wasn't even fully a mainstream Democratic position before 2012 or so. There were significant numbers of anti-abortion Democrats until recently. $15/hour national minimum wage (or its inflation-adjusted equivalent) would have been laughed at 10 years ago. Trade deals were still mostly universally supported in the DNC 10 years ago. Et cetera.


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I think a lot of voters felt the Democratic Party cares more about gender roles than terrorism. I would need to go back and find the stats, but the number 1 issues, if not 1 than 2 was terrorism.

You have a party that refuses to say Islamic Terrorism. While it should not fucking matter what label terrorism has in front of it, Dems got played by Trump and the GOP for being soft. That these terrorists were pouring in to the country and Dems were too scared to stop them out of fear of being not PC.

Fear was/is a huge factor in this election. Fear of losing jobs, of rising health costs, and of terrorism.

Clinton didn't do a good enough job convincing people that her plans would benefit them. And I don't know if ANY Dem could have beaten Trump minus Obama's 3rd term.

This was a perfect storm. Trump beat 16 other GOP. Just beat the shit out of them, and I think the Left ignored that.

I have no idea how the Dems move forward. I think they'll still be fighting well into 2018 about why Bernie was "robbed" of the nomination.
 
Truthfully, sometimes fate is such that it is and you can just be the right person at the right time (for the right people in the right states). I can't imagine who else in the Democratic party, and who was willing to run, would have beat Trump. Maybe Elizabeth Warren if she ran could have been a sort of bridge between Sanders and the establishment but that's about it.

It could also very well be the case that the Democrats, in pretty good disarray could ostensibly win landslides in 4 years, not because they front somebody great but because Trump will be an unmitigated disaster and will pull down the rest of the GOP field with him.

Guaranteed nobody but the absolute craziest Republicans will want him campaigning on their behalf.
 
I think a lot of voters felt the Democratic Party cares more about gender roles than terrorism. I would need to go back and find the stats, but the number 1 issues, if not 1 than 2 was terrorism.



I think there is some truth in this as well.

Not true as in actually true, but true as in optics.
 
My perspective may be a bit biased because I'm a centrist Democrat who would legitimately stand a chance of being turned in an election that was something like Huntsman or Romney or maybe Kasich vs. Sanders or Warren.

But... I honestly have a hard time buying that the DNC has really been following the GOP to the right. The DNC platform last year was markedly to the left of any previous DNC platform - more left than I really liked, though I was obviously still thrilled to support Hillary over the buffoon. Stuff that is mainstream DNC fodder now was not even remotely close to that 10 years ago, or certainly in the 90s. A Democratic president signed DOMA. Same-sex marriage wasn't even fully a mainstream Democratic position before 2012 or so. There were significant numbers of anti-abortion Democrats until recently. $15/hour national minimum wage (or its inflation-adjusted equivalent) would have been laughed at 10 years ago. Trade deals were still mostly universally supported in the DNC 10 years ago. Et cetera.
You're talking only about social issues, which don't win elections.

The Democratic Party has been dragged to the right on income inequality, Wall Street regulations, labor issues, wage issues, etc. for a very long time now. And $15/hour national minimum wage WAS laughed at, and was one of the flimsy reasons Sanders was considered persona non grata by the entrenched members of the DNC.
 
there is plenty of blame to go around for why this happened. the arguing back and forth over which holds more water is not productive right now. ALL of the reasons being discussed in here had something to do with it. did the far left/sanders supporters stay home? did third party votes have a negative effect? was there a hidden trump vote that nobody saw? could hillary have done more in the rust belt? did the democratic party lose the optics war? did the comey letter have a debilitating effect on clinton's campaign? racism? sexism? voter suppression? gerrymandering? the left ignoring the rural working class for years?

the answer to all of those things is yes - and those of us in the opposition, no matter far left or centrist, are going to have to figure these things out.

but in the meantime... this guy thus far is doing absolutely everything he said he would do, and is giving everybody absolutely no reason to believe that he won't do every crazy thing he said he'd do.

including, well, this...

https://thinkprogress.org/9-terrify...about-nuclear-weapons-99f6290bc32a#.w12cxdt0u

there is a mentally unhinged reality tv star in charge of 1200 nukes. this should scare the shit out of everybody, including those who voted for him.

everything he has said, he has set forth a plan to follow through on. everything. and he's continued to show a temperament that is utterly frightening.
 
#notfascist

Trump’s Chief Strategist Says News Media Should ‘Keep Its Mouth Shut’

“The media should be embarrassed and humiliated and keep its mouth shut and just listen for awhile,” Mr. Bannon said during a telephone call.

“I want you to quote this,” Mr. Bannon added. “The media here is the opposition party. They don’t understand this country. They still do not understand why Donald Trump is the president of the United States.”
 
https://twitter.com/PhilipRucker/status/824713026783866882

So essentially the US consumer will pay for the wall through higher costs. Batshit crazy.

The Executive Branch can't just do shit like this unilaterally, can it? A 20% tax on Mexican imports is quite likely instant-recession material. There's no way in hell the Congressional GOP will go along with it... right? Please? Please, Republicans, when you desperately need to be free-marketeers... be free-marketeers.
 
The Executive Branch can't just do shit like this unilaterally, can it? A 20% tax on Mexican imports is quite likely instant-recession material. There's no way in hell the Congressional GOP will go along with it... right? Please? Please, Republicans, when you desperately need to be free-marketeers... be free-marketeers.
It would be a comedy shambles if it wasn't real. I can't quite believe what is happening. The country is literally run by lunatics.
 
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