Mlb 2019

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Everyone is going to take a bath here and many people will end up losing their jobs. I understand both sides of it - but there's no way they're going to come remotely close to hitting a normal revenue number this year. Not a chance.

And sure, there are many owners who should just bite the bullet for a year - but then there are others who are asset rich and cash poor - and those teams will be gutted - on the field and off.

So it would have been nice if both sides could have thought of someone other than themselves for this year and saved their pissing contest for next season.

I do think the owners are most wrong, as they agreed to a deal - but the players are in no way innocent.

Fuck em both.
 
Nah, don't give me both-sideism here. It's on the owners. It's been on the owners for years. This is just the tip of the iceberg.
 
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Also, the easier solution for the owners here - now that their bluff has been called - its to put this on Manfred and get rid of him.

Remember. this is the guy who once said this:

I’m probably really good at one thing, and that was the labor relations part of my career. My ability to navigate those waters, part of my education was living through that strike. I learned certain things that I think are really important. And you know, I try to continue to live by them.

https://theathletic.com/1130731/201...rike-from-both-sides-of-the-bargaining-table/
 
Nah, don't give me both-sideism here. It's on the owners. It's been on the owners for years. This is just the tip of the iceberg.
If you're going to just lump everything historically together? Sure, it's on the owners.

If you're going to discuss only this year, and specifically the COVID related shut down? These franchises are hemorrhaging money. There's no gate, no sponsorship, no local TV and currently no national TV either. In a normal situation you could look at some of these owners and say tough - sell the team then. Well that's not happening right now, either. Nobody is taking on that risk in this atmosphere at anywhere close to market price.

And unlike a labor stoppage it isn't a self inflicted wound, or one that staff could have seen coming and prepared for.

If you want to say that the owners past behavior has made them impossible to believe or sympathize with? Fine. I can go along with that. Is there a little boy who cries wolf thing going on with the owners right now? 100%

But professional sports franchises right now are in significantly worse financial positions than many people realize - especially if you're a franchise where ownership's wealth is tied up in assets.

It would have been nice for both sides to separate the larger labor issues that will ultimately come to a head next year to save the season for this year. Alas...

I have zero sympathy for either side.
 
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I just don't see how you can separate this year from the past. It's the story of American capitalism, really: the profits are privatized, the losses are socialized. Player salaries went down year after year despite record-breaking profits. Public money was injected in every single stadium that was built over the years. Franchises' value multiplied.

Those profits and equity gains were not shared with the players, they were not given back to communities. They were pocketed by private actors. So why should labor now accept that losses should be socialized?

And we haven't even gotten into the claim that the franchises are losing money to play the game. It's utterly unbelievable.

I think the interpretation of what's happening is really simple. MLB did not expect the players' reaction to be as firm as it was, and felt they could use the pandemic to extract yet more value from players (not only for this year but beyond, like getting players to agree on expanded playoffs in exchange for nothing). Now that it has backfired, they have no clue about how to move on from here.

While it's easy to think of the Stantons or Coles or Harpers or Trouts who make millions, the same is not true for the majority of MLB players (without even going into the minor leagues, which are becoming something close to servitude): https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-much-money-do-mlb-players-really-make/
 
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I just don't see how you can separate this year from the past. It's the story of American capitalism, really: the profits are privatized, the losses are socialized. Player salaries went down year after year despite record-breaking profits. Public money was injected in every single stadium that was built over the years. Franchises' value multiplied.

Those profits and equity gains were not shared with the players, they were not given back to communities. They were pocketed by private actors. So why should labor now accept that losses should be socialized?

And we haven't even gotten into the claim that the franchises are losing money to play the game. It's utterly unbelievable.

I think the interpretation of what's happening is really simple. MLB did not expect the players' reaction to be as firm as it was, and felt they could use the pandemic to extract yet more value from players (not only for this year but beyond, like getting players to agree on expanded playoffs in exchange for nothing). Now that it has backfired, they have no clue about how to move on from here.

While it's easy to think of the Stantons or Coles or Harpers or Trouts who make millions, the same is not true for the majority of MLB players (without even going into the minor leagues, which are becoming something close to servitude): https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-much-money-do-mlb-players-really-make/
I don't know enough about major league baseball's books. I don't have the time to really did into it.

But I guarantee you that many professional sports teams, in this moment, with zero thought of any other year, are bleeding out.

But you're free to believe what ever you'd like.
 
You don't know enough because they don't open them. They intentionally report losses to get you on their side. They've never actually opened them up. Everything they say is bullshit and they cannot be trusted until their books are totally open.

They're also bleeding money because of their own intentional decisions to over-leverage themselves.
 
They're also bleeding money because of their own intentional decisions to over-leverage themselves.

yup. i have exactly as much sympathy for the owners crying about not making money right now as i do for the airlines crying about not making money right now.
 
anyways i just wish they would make a fucking decision either way so that the money i currently have tied up in an mlb.tv subscription and tickets for games that won't have fans in the seats even if they do get played can finally be refunded back to me.

ticketmaster and MLB have basically told me to go fuck myself until games are officially postponed or cancelled. luckily i have a solid income still so i'm not hurting for the money but if i had lost my job because of the pandemic i'd be just about ready to burn the skydome (which conveniently holds the ticketmaster canada head office) down right about now.
 
your post from last night talks at length about having sympathy.

my post wasn't directed at you, i was just adding my thoughts to the discussion.

Oh.

If you want to say that the owners past behavior has made them impossible to believe or sympathize with? Fine. I can go along with that.

...

I have zero sympathy for either side.

There are no heroes in this. Both sides are being assholes, and the only ones truly being hurt by it are the biz ops and support staff.

Both things can be true.

The owners can be a loathsome group of assholes who have manipulated the market and lied about their financial well being for their own benefit and are unworthy of sympathy - and the business of sports and entertainment as a whole can be bleeding out cash at an unprecedented level.

These things are not mutually exclusive.
 
The owners' basic claim is that they would be losing $4 billion, or $640k per game (meaning $320k per team). But you know what that math doesn't include:
- MLB central revenues that are distributed to teams (about $1.35 billion).
- The savings in amateur spending (only 5 rounds in the draft, bonuses deferred to 2021 and 2022, etc). $425 million in total.
- Money that teams earn through RSNs that teams partially or totally own, which often have under-market agreements with teams in order to hide revenues (which basically includes the top earners - Yankees, Dodgers, Red Sox, Cubs, Mets).

So there's no way to believe what the owners are saying.

And my point is that even if they were losing money, tough luck. They rode the wave of record profits and kept all the gains to themselves. Now live with the losses.

I don't see where the players are to blame? The only way to think they are at fault is if you think they should have made a concession they don't need to make "for the greater good", even when the other side is not acting in good faith and has no social concern (to its employees) whatsoever.
 
The owners' basic claim is that they would be losing $4 billion, or $640k per game (meaning $320k per team). But you know what that math doesn't include:
- MLB central revenues that are distributed to teams (about $1.35 billion).
- The savings in amateur spending (only 5 rounds in the draft, bonuses deferred to 2021 and 2022, etc). $425 million in total.
- Money that teams earn through RSNs that teams partially or totally own, which often have under-market agreements with teams in order to hide revenues (which basically includes the top earners - Yankees, Dodgers, Red Sox, Cubs, Mets).

So there's no way to believe what the owners are saying.

And my point is that even if they were losing money, tough luck. They rode the wave of record profits and kept all the gains to themselves. Now live with the losses.

I don't see where the players are to blame? The only way to think they are at fault is if you think they should have made a concession they don't need to make "for the greater good", even when the other side is not acting in good faith and has no social concern (to its employees) whatsoever.

Ok so again I can't reference baseball - but I can say what I can about my sport without touching on specifics...

Corporate partnership cash has dried up. Many partners are not renewing, not making payments, or in many cases unable to make payments. This is on both the local and regional level. I've seen 8/9 figure revenue streams go into the red in a matter of months and not replaced.

Ticket revenue is non existent and will not come back at all this year, in all likelihood. Money that was already in is going back out to customers, or pushed to the following season. New money is almost non existent.

The number around the national TV contract will undoubtedly come down significantly. It's certainly possible that this will merely be prorated - but it's likely that even in a prorating situation that the national partners will still be entitled to a refund of some type.

RSN's? Without content they are dead weight, and there is currently ZERO content. They are losing partnerships, ad buys, etc. at an unbelievable rate. They still get the per customer piece of the pie from cable providers, so they're not crying poor just yet - but subs, which were already on a downward trajectory, are dropping faster and will undoubtedly drop further.

Facilities... mortgage payments are being made on buildings that sit empty. Massive corporate sponsorship checks are in some cases being held, and in some cases being refunded.

This is just my own first hand experience in professional sports since March. And yes, I've seen the books. I don't work in baseball, but I can't imagine things are much different on their side.

Again... Now. Only now. I'm making no comment about the negotiations that will take place in 2021 over a new CBA and what they should or should not be.
 
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Good call announcing a season just days after a COVID outbreak at Phillies camp, and with the NBA basically admitting they expect large positive test numbers.
 
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