verte76
Blue Crack Addict
financeguy said:It would be interesting to hear from some Lebanese posters.
That's for damn sure.
financeguy said:It would be interesting to hear from some Lebanese posters.
Earnie Shavers said:I don't think there's a person here who denies that (a) Israel do whatever they can to avoid civilians, and
deep said:
blowing up buildings, knowing there will be some civilian casualties is not doing whatever they can do to avoid civilians
deep said:
well ,
there is no way they will intensify
so from a political or whatever you want to call it
this has not been good for Israel
maycocksean said:
Well, certainly not everyone in France wanted the invasion. Say the Vichy government for example. But you're missing my point. That was a conventional war against a nation-state. All I've asked you to do is to concede that this is what is happening between Israel and Lebanon, and you refuse to do so. I'm not sure why.
I think you're making some very unfair assumptions about myself and other like-minded posters here. You're assuming that anything other than unqualified, unquestioning support of any and all actions Israel takes equals support for Hezbollah. I've got news for you--NO ONE on this site supports Hezbollah, their actions, or their goals. It's like if I see a basketball player hurling the basketball at the backboard and I say, "You know there might be a better way to do that" and the player turns around and says, "Hey, you should support me! Obviously you just want me to lose!" Everyone I've read posting here agrees that Israel has a right to defend itself. Everyone I've read posting here is aware that Israel's very existence has been threatened since it's inception and that they've had to fight simply for the right to exist. All some of us are asking is "might there be a better way to keep Israel safe AND reduce the loss of civilian life." You say no, and consider any dissent as an attack on Israel!
Surely you must be joking. Last I checked our country has been run by human beings, not infallible gods. How can any country have EVERY war it has ever been involved in be just. There are many wars that have been both necessary and just--The American Revolution, the War of 1812, the Civil War, World War I and World War II and the invasion of Afghanistan come to mind. But for others--the Mexican War, the Spanish American War, and especially the Indian Wars, there is at the very least some question of the "justness" of these wars. I suppose if you equate national policy with "justness" then yes. But then every nation can claim they are fighting a "just war" and that isn't possible, is it? (Especially if they're fighting agaisnt us).
I think Hezbollah is a terrorist organization that needs to be stopped. Why are we not more vocal in complaining more about them? Because they're beyond reasoning with, in my opinon. Israel is a reasonable, democratic country that might be persuaded to pursue different means of preseserving their national security. There won't be much reasoning with Hezbollah, I'm afraid. Do I think that Hezbollah's hiding among civilians is wrong? Of course! Just like I think, when a bank robber comes out of the bank with hostage in one arm and a gun in the other. The police could say, "Damn that robber. . .that is so wrong to use a hostage as a shield like that" and then open fire mowing them both down. But the police generally don't do that. But again, as I've already said, if Israel is indeed engaged in conventional warfare against Lebanon, then yes dropping bombs on missile launchers in neighborhoods would be a sad but necessaryaction. Would you agree that Israel is engaging in conventional warfare against Lebanon?
There is only one guilty party less often than we'd like to believe.
deep said:if they killed 7-8 Hezbollah with all the non-combatants
or
if there was a rocket launcher next door
no one would care about all the dead children
they would be saying it was a good hit
and this is why Israel and the U S are alone
because non Israeli or non American lifes are almost meaningless to them
Earnie Shavers said:Well, I'm saying that their tactics are foolish because they are hitting civilians and that this is precisely what emboldens, strengthens and hands support straight to their enemies. Within the context of what I see as a mistaken approach, they are doing all they can. To do more would be to change the approach, which is what I am suggesting they should be doing. To put it another way: I don't believe Israel would have thrown a missile into that apartment building if they had known for sure there were 60+ civilians, including 30+ children, inside. However, the fact that Israel would send a missile into an apartment building at all is the crucial mistake they are making. I guess what I'm saying that within the context of the approach they are taking, they are reaching the bar, but they have set the bar very low. In summary: if you are going to bomb a dense residential area from 35,000 feet you are asking for it.
verte76 said:Israel and the U.S. are alone, practically. Deep is right, they don't give a damn about any lives that aren't Israeli or American. Don't misunderstand me, I am a strong supporter of Israel's right to exist and right to defend itself. But bombing Lebanese buildings isn't the way to win this war.
Earnie Shavers said:I don't think there's a person here who denies that (a) Israel do whatever they can to avoid civilians, and (b) Hezbollah do whatever they can to put them in harms way. I think what we are saying is that this is the hand that this kind of terrorist driven warfare has dealt, and either unfortunately or difficulty, depending on your perspective, it demands a different way of thinking. I'm not a military strategist, I have no answers, but as it stands it's lose/lose for Israel. Don't fight back? Lose. Fight back and hit civilians? Lose.
I am very strongly pro-Israel in this situation and you'll hear no argument from me against those who say this is 100% on Hezbollahs head, however Israel are truly never going to get anywhere while they are fighting a style of war which is absolutely guaranteed to create another generation bent on Israel's destruction. I don't have the answer, but I know there's no way this is it. At worst this will spiral and inflame, at best Israel will achieve success in driving Hezbollah either back and creating a buffer zone, or dealing them a semi-lethal blow, both of which are only very very temporary solutions. I don't see how anyone can't see that. Using force like this to knock them out is precisely what gives them power. They need to have their power and influence taken away, not emboldened. Whether Israel is in the right or wrong, it's still not the solution.
maycocksean said:
Let me qualify the statement this way. I wouldn't say they are doing "everything they can" to avoid hitting civilians, but I think Israel is not intentionally TARGETING civilians the way Hezbollah is. There is a difference.
I think the Israeli military thinks there's Hezbollah hiding out in a building and they know there are a bunch of civilians there too, well they're gonna hit the building anyway. The civilian deaths are "unfortunate" but "necessary" to get at the real enemy. This is standard conventional warfare tatics (think Normandy as Sting is endlessly fond of reminding us, think the Dresden firebombings, and of course the atomic bombs on Japan). And I think Earnie Shavers has quite eloquently pointed out that this method, in addition to being tragic for the civilians caught in the crossfire, works against Israel's long term interests.
deep said:
if you look at the ratio of civilian (women and children ) killed by Israel
and the ratio of civilians killed by Hezbollah
Israel is the greater killer of innocent non-combatants
Nebraska's Sen. Hagel calls for immediate cease-fire
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Urging President Bush to turn all U.S. efforts toward "ending this madness," a leading Republican senator Monday broke with the Bush administration and called for an immediate cease-fire in the Mideast.
"The sickening slaughter on both sides must end and it must end now," Nebraska Sen. Chuck Hagel said. "President Bush must call for an immediate cease-fire. This madness must stop."
The Bush administration has refused to call for Israel to halt its attacks on southern Lebanon, joining Israel in insisting that Hezbollah fighters must be pushed back from the Israeli-Lebanese border.
President Bush Monday in a speech in Miami Beach, Florida, reiterated his call for a cease-fire in the Mideast only if it brought a "long-lasting peace" that addressed Iran and Syria's support for Hezbollah, the Islamic militia that Israel is targeting. (Full story)
Hagel said that refusal threatens to isolate the United States and Israel and harm chances of achieving a long-term peace in the region.
"How do we realistically believe that a continuation of the systematic destruction of an American fter a fund-raising trip to Florida, and the White House had no immediate reaction to Hagel's comments.
Like his frequent ally, Sen. John McCain of Arizona, Hagel is a possible GOP presidential candidate in 2008 and has been critical of the administration's handling of Iraq. But few members of Congress have broken ranks with the president over his handling of the Israel-Hezbollah conflict.
Calls for an end to the 20-day conflict have increased since Israel's bombing Sunday of the Lebanese town of Qana, which left at least 54 civilians dead. Hagel said the Israeli campaign was "tearing Lebanon apart," and the resulting civilian casualties and economic damage were weakening the country and bolstering support for Hezbollah, which the U.S. State Department considers a terrorist organization.
Hagel urged the administration to revive the Beirut Declaration of 2002, authored by Saudi Arabia's King Abdullah, under which Arab countries would have recognized Israel's right to exist. Hagel said that declaration was "a starting point" toward a regional settlement, but the United States "squandered" it.
'Bogged down' in Iraq?
Meanwhile, the decorated Vietnam veteran said the United States "is bogged down in Iraq," limiting U.S. diplomatic and military options. Last week's announcement that more than 3,000 more American troops were needed to reinforce Baghdad amid rising sectarian violence was "a dramatic setback," he said.
He said the 3-year-old war is wearing badly on the U.S. military, and that Iraq's fledgling democracy needs to take over more of its security responsibilities from American troops.
"This is not about setting a timeline," Hagel said. "This is about understanding the implications of the forces of reality."
deep said:
Fifty-one Israelis have died, including 33 soldiers and 18 civilians who died in rocket attacks.
40% non -combatants
60% Israeli soldiers
what do you think the numbers are for the Lebanese killed by Israel?
anitram said:She is a PR disaster herself. The day Qana is bombed, the Arab world sees nothing but photos of her shaking hands with Olmert, grinning. The day after the Rome talks essentially collapsed, the world sees a photo of her playing a piano in Malaysia, as if there isn't a care in the world. It's like the infamous photos of her shopping for Ferragamo shoes (expensive and ugly, btw) while the people of New Orleans drowned and baked in the sun.
You're right that Israel's lost the PR war, that is obvious. But Rice has lost the PR war just as much and she didn't have to do so. It's bad enough the US is seen as a one-sided policy. You mock the French for flattering Iran, but in the end they and Syria will be necessary in any talks to disarm Hezbollah, whether you like it or not and regardless of whether the Iranian president is manifestly insane. The French understand this, having had a long colonial presence and history in Lebanon and the region. Condoleezza Rice on the other hand got her ass booted out of Beirut pre-emptively. Utter disaster.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3284627,00.htmlThe Red Cross published that 28 corpses were evacuated from Qana, 19 of which were children. The report clashes with the Lebanese report that 57 people were killed.
AcrobatMan said:
Some points
- Hezbollah operate from civilians areas.
- Hezbollan targets anyone they can
QANA - Red Cross workers and residents of Qana, where Israeli bombing killed at least 60 civilians, have told IPS that no Hezbollah rockets were launched from the city before the Israeli air strike.