BonoVoxSupastar said:
Wow this thread took a shit turn quickly...some people don't get it.
You've handled yourself fine Irvine...
Now back to the questions:
1. Why is it nice guys finish last?
2. Does this stigma exists with homosexuals as well?
3. Does it change with age(I actually have a theory about this one, but would like to hear yours first)?
1. i don't think nice guys finish last. i think nice guys who allow themselves to be pushovers, or nice guys who aren't assertive and are actually timid instead of just nice might finish last. there's a line from ferris bueller when he's talking about cameron: "he's going to marry the first girl he lays. and she's going to treat him like shit. because you can't respect someone who kisses your ass." there's a line between nice and being a doormat. i suppose the big thing that i want to hit home -- because i was one of these guys -- is that being nice cannot be an excuse for inaction. don't use nice as an excuse to not try at all.
one other example i can think of is that i have a friend who's father treats his mother (sometimes) like garbage. i remember being at their house when i was 11 or so and she was crying and said something like, "mark, i am not a child." and i was like, "what's going on with your parents?" and he said, "sometimes, my dad is a real jerk." these days, he has no problems dating lots of girls, and he's almost overcompensating for his father -- he treats them almost too well to the point where they don't feel like he's relating to them as people; that he's almost worshipful, and this can make someone uncomfortable, and it can be almost patronizing. he does things like fly them to california for a week's vacation (after only dating her for 3 months) and using all his spare miles to upgrade them to first class. very nice thing to do. but imagine the pressure that puts on her: like, oh my god, have i earned this yet? i'm not ready for him to do things like this for me. and then they break up with him because all that niceness can be suffocating. women want to be treated as human beings, not lapdogs.
nice will get you everywhere, but nice is in engaging someone in a conversation, introducing them to your friends, looking at them in the eye, being interested in what they have to say, asking them questions, not constantly flattering everything they say or do but making thoughtful comments -- i.e., it's much more meaningful to say "that shirt really brings out the color of your eyes, looks great!" than a "wow you look good!"
2. i think so. there are gay men who are horrible, predatory assholes, and there are gay men who fall into the timid category. it's really the same thing for homosexuals as heterosexuals, however i think homosexuals, because they are both of the same gender, don't labor under the illusions that many men have where they need to "win her over" or that if they are too assertive they think that she will think that he thinks she's easy, or any other things nice straight men i think have been taught about women that often leads to analysis-paralysis -- there's an equality between 2 men or 2 women that negates, i think, much of the almost post-feminist pressure men feel to be nice and respectful and aware of "boundaries" and such. note: this isn't a, "men have your way with women," and more of a, "men, let her know what you're thinking, let her know that you're interested, and don't worry so much about what you think being 'nice' means -- be authentically nice."
i am so much more assertive when i like a guy that i would ever have been with a girl, because i don't worry about all the things nice guys have been taught about women -- if i'm interetested, i let him know. i will touch the shoulder, make a bit of a suggestive comment, move in for a kiss if it strikes me as appropriate, say, "would you like to come upstairs," etc. i don't see any of this as being anything other than nice -- honest, straightforward, but always nice and respectful.
3. i think women get over the "bad boys" when they start to view themselves as adults. this might happen at 23, it might not happen until she's 40. but while assholes might seem appealing when you're young -- that whole, "why does he think he's so great, let me find out" -- that gets old, and substance starts to take over. you want someone you can build a life with, and that involves treating each other like human beings. if you're a total asshole guy, you're not treating her like a human being. if you're trying so hard to be "nice" and wind up acting like a lobotimized ass-kisser, then you're not treating her like a human being.