ask Irvine about men!

[Calluna]

Irvine, thanks for your perspective. That was helpful.

 

[Irvine511]

dear irvine, why are men such arseholes when theyre in groups but can be nice alone?

i think that single-sexed groups of people tend to bring out the worst traits of each gender. i saw this in college when i was on the swim team -- the men would drink, burp, thump chests, brag about sexual conquests, strictly enforce the heirarchy, and speak derisively about women in general (anyone's girlfriend being an exception, of course). the women would be shrill, giggly, nice-to-your-face-catty-behind-your-back, and ultra competitive in a passive-aggressive kind of way. one-on-one, people turn back into people; but i think single-sexed groups are, in general, a negative thing. i struggled mightily with this in college. it wasn't totally oppressive, but there was clearly an element of overt homophobia espoused by my group of male swimmer friends.

yet, when i came out, no one was surprised and no one treats me differently or seems to care much and makes it a point to invite me and my boyfriend over to dinner or something.



i think this applies to your situation -- men in groups constantly measure and judge what they do and say in terms of how the group will respond. if he's sarcastic, will they think it's funny? if he's sincere, will they think he's less of a man? so you're often not seeing the real person, you're seeing how that person acts in the context of a single-sexed group. however, it's important to note that people of quality will tend to find groups that are closer matches to their true personalities, as well as -- particularly as they grow up and become more sure of themselves -- become less concerned with how the group thinks.

i also think that men grow out of this, usually.

 

[MissMaCo]

irvine, who are you ?

 

[VintagePunk]

Do you accept PMs about topics that one would rather not discuss on the thread?

Reading this thread has been thoroughly fascinating, btw. You've offered some great insights.

 

[Irvine511]

Why are some men seemingly so blinded by looks/whatever else you want to label it as and can't see what a woman is really like when everyone else who observes the woman can see it-they can't seem to realize that the woman is so fake around them. Maybe they just don't want to realize it, for whatever reason.

Why do nice women always finish last?

Why do some men stop liking you after you assert yourself - about anything really..

i've been thinking about these questions, and they seem to be fairly specific -- but without enough details that i can't really reply in response to that specific situation. i can venture a bit of a stab at these, but i'd really need more information to feel as if i were doing your question any justice.

i suppose that some men get so wrapped up in the idea of a "hot" girl that they willfully deceive themselves. this is more of a commentary on this particular male's shallowness, or more accurately insecurities, than anything else. in the end, he's screwing himself over if he thinks her looks are going to last. what will remain is her personality.

my answer to why nice women might finish last is the same as my answer to BVS's question about why do nice men finish last -- i really do think, mostly because i've lived this out, that people mistake being nice with actually being timid. people have to know what's on your mind. people have to know what you want. putting yourself out there isn't the same thing as being a jerk. i think it's that jerks tend to put themselves out there more, and are thus more likely to succeed if due to nothing more than the odds.

the last one seems way too specific, and seems to have more to do with an individual person's characteristics rather than certain tendencies of his gender.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

i suppose that some men get so wrapped up in the idea of a "hot" girl that they willfully deceive themselves. this is more of a commentary on this particular male's shallowness, or more accurately insecurities, than anything else. in the end, he's screwing himself over if he thinks her looks are going to last. what will remain is her personality.

I like that answer

You can be nice and still tell people what's on your mind and what you want, but odds are in my experience that they won't be happy about it (in my experience, men are more unhappy about it when you do that than women are). I learned a long time ago, the hard way, not to be a doormat. Being nice is too boring for some/many men, some seem to want the "excitement" and "challenge" of someone who really isn't nice at all.

 

[hiphop]

ever thought of being a social worker or shrink? you have some talent

i suppose that some men get so wrapped up in the idea of a "hot" girl that they willfully deceive themselves. this is more of a commentary on this particular male's shallowness, or more accurately insecurities, than anything else. in the end, he's screwing himself over if he thinks her looks are going to last. what will remain is her personality.

hey, that´s a brilliant reply. everyone is getting older - in a society where everyone always wants to be young and beautiful.

another question: do you think gay men care more about looks than straight men? (i have that impression. not with my gay friends, rather generally) if yes, why?

 

[briarrose]

Irvine

Thanks for answering my questions. It was very helpful. Also, I was wondering if you ever heard anything about the asexual orientation.

 

[Irvine511]

I don't know about the 10 year age difference thing, Irvine. I think it's fine if you are 49 and 39, because then life experience is more equal. But to me, the difference between 19 and 29 is HUGE. And although I think it's possible to have successful relationships with a significant age difference, when I see a 29/30 year old guy in a bar surrounded by a dozen college freshmen, to me that looks like "gonna get a piece of ass tonight" and not "I might have a lot in common with these girls, like our shared love of literature, so why not try dating them."

i think that if someone is looking for a real relationship, then i agree with you about the 19 year old and the 29 year old (and don't forget, that's the very outer limits of the 10 year rule ... what about 29 and 23?)

however, i do think a 19 year old and a 29 year old can go out and have fun, though it does get alittle sketchy at the younger end of the spectrum. i feel like life starts to settle post-university, and i'd have no problem with, say, a 24 year old dating a 33 year old.

anyway, perhaps this perspective is skewed by my view of many gay relationships -- the commonality of being gay cuts through the traditional social barriers of class, race, religion, ethnicity, and even age. it's not uncommon to find 10-15 year age differences with gay couples, but the success of these relationships might be attributed to homosexuality insofar as "life experience/goals" for many gay people do not involve traditional marriage and children as it does for the majority of straight people.

 

[Irvine511]

irvine, who are you ?

a 28 year old GWM with a BA in English currently in a relationship and living in the Columbia Heights neighborhood of Washington DC. i work in "media."

 

[Irvine511]

Do you accept PMs about topics that one would rather not discuss on the thread?

Reading this thread has been thoroughly fascinating, btw. You've offered some great insights.

yes. i just answered an off-the-record PM today.

am happy to help however i can.

 

[LarryMullen's POPAngel]

Ok, I got a few for you...


1) Why do men agree to things they have no intention of following through on?

2) Why do they choose to ignore a woman after she's asked him out for an innocent lunch?

3) Why do they then act fine whenever the woman talks to him, thus confusing her even more re: the supposed ignoring?

You might want to ignore this post - I'm what you'd call a tad miffed at the moment.

 

[Irvine511]

Re: ever thought of being a social worker or shrink? you have some talent

another question: do you think gay men care more about looks than straight men? (i have that impression. not with my gay friends, rather generally) if yes, why?

i think gay culture, at least mainstream gay culture, is obsessed with looks. i think this sends out a message that many gay men internalize -- and i count myself guilty in this, i take tremendous care with my appearance and spend lots of time in the gym -- that if you're not beautiful, then no one will want you.

(there's also the whole "Bear" subculture that is anything but appearance-obsessed -- or obsessed with the appearance of not being appearance-obsessed, but that's a whole other topic.)

so, on the whole, yes, but it's complicated.

men are men, and often times differences between gay people and straight people (women included) are better explained by gender differences than by differences in sexual orientation.

if you're the type of gay man who goes out to bars looking to find someone to go home with, then yes. it's all about looks because that scene is all about sex. but the same thing is true for straight men who go to bars to find women to take home.

i do think, however, that gay men, like straight women, are very aware of being objects of what literary theorists call "the male gaze." gay men and straight women are aware that looks often play a disproportionate role in what men (gay and straight) deem to be attractive. so i think this provides tremendous incentive for gay men to get into shape, to buy moisturizer, to buy cool clothes, and to make themselves as attractive as they can be. some of this is a good thing -- it's good to be healthy, it's good to take pride in your appearance, it's good to eat healthy foods and avoid all those partially hydrogenated vegetable oils in the poison they serve you at fast food restaurants and in vending machines. walking around in a fast-paced east coast city with a large gay population, i don't see many fat people. i always know who the tourists are on the Metro because they are fat. no a bit pudgy, but borderline obese.

it also can be a bit oppressive, almost fascist, and comes down to the socially-induced complex that makes gay men very defensive about their masculinity. it is possible to be gay and masculine, though proving this has given gay manifestations of masculinity a somewhat extreme or caricatured form - from the burly leathermen to the huge bodybuilders.

the flip side of this, of course, is that advertisers know that women and gay men are so aware of their looks that their advertising heavily exploits this phenomenon.

 

[Irvine511]

Irvine

Thanks for answering my questions. It was very helpful. Also, I was wondering if you ever heard anything about the asexual orientation.

i really don't know the first thing about the asexual oreintation.

i suppose that it's a group of people -- men and women -- who have no desire to have sex. they might crave emotional and physical intamcy and love and acceptance, but the sex act is of no importance to them.

but someone else probably knows far more about this than i do.

 

[Irvine511]

Ok, I got a few for you...


1) Why do men agree to things they have no intention of following through on?

2) Why do they choose to ignore a woman after she's asked him out for an innocent lunch?

3) Why do they then act fine whenever the woman talks to him, thus confusing her even more re: the supposed ignoring?

You might want to ignore this post - I'm what you'd call a tad miffed at the moment.

oh, April ...



let's talk about this stuff in your thread. okay?

 

[LarryMullen's POPAngel]

oh, April ...



let's talk about this stuff in your thread. okay?

Gotcha.

 

[Doctor Phil]

oh, let me count the ways i loathe Dr Phil.

i mean, honestly: who the fuck is he and what the fuck does he know?

 

[joerags]

Irvine

I am 32 years old. I work two jobs. I still live at home.

Do women consider me a loser?

I have a college degree, but I still have to work two jobs. There would be no way I could afford to live on my own.
Is there any hope for me, or should I just resign to the fact that women would never be interested in me and just continue to live this life and hopefully one day try to find a better job or career?

 

[Irvine511]

Irvine

I am 32 years old. I work two jobs. I still live at home.

Do women consider me a loser?

I have a college degree, but I still have to work two jobs. There would be no way I could afford to live on my own.
Is there any hope for me, or should I just resign to the fact that women would never be interested in me and just continue to live this life and hopefully one day try to find a better job or career?

well, this is a question more for the women, but i can tell you what i'd think if you were, say, a gay man and i had met you.

would i think you were a loser? it would all depend if you thought you were a loser. if you were very negative about still living with your parents, if you said how much it sucked, how you can get anything started, how you're frustrated and fed up and don't see why someone with a college degree should have to work two jobs and still live at home, then, yes, i'd probably think you were a loser because you were thinking and acting like one.

if, however, you were living with your parents but you were well aware that this wasn't a commentary on how you were as a person and more of a commentary on how difficult it is right now to have jobs and afford rent, then i might see things differently. it's all in your attitude towards your situation. if you view it as temporary -- if you sincerely believe that, and aren't just saying that to make yourself feel better, or to try and put on a show for someone, because people tend to have very good bullshit detectors -- and you might even talk about the positives of living with your parents (saving $$$ that you would have spent on rent, your parents obviously love you, mom and dad might cook for you once in a while, i bet they'd love to meet your firends) this might be a sign of a good person -- that they have perspective, that they are capable of putting off immediate gratification for long term gain, and that they like and get along with their parents.

so, however you view your situation is how others will view your situation. so, sit back, and really think about it. and then see what answer you come up with, and then measure that answer against how you talk about living at home to other people. then i think you'll get a better ideaif other people think you are a loser or not.

 

[joerags]

Okay, thanks.

 

[ZeroDude]

I've a quick question for you, obviously your answer is only your opinion on the matter but I'm curious.

If in some way I feel under appreciated, am I in fact an egotist?

 

[Irvine511]

I've a quick question for you, obviously your answer is only your opinion on the matter but I'm curious.

If in some way I feel under appreciated, am I in fact an egotist?

my quick answer is no. but can you expoud? that's really too vague for me to even begin to answer. can you give an example?

 

[ZeroDude]

I don't think I'm really willing to fully expound on what I meant there, but sometimes I feel rather surplus to requirements so to speak, not only in social situations etc. but in the general passing of my life and this leads me to feel under appreciated some how as in no one really takes not of my worth.

It's probably just my overly melancholic mind acting up again though and I know I can live with that. It's most definitely "kick up the arse time".

 

[For Honor]

Do you under appreciate yourself, ZD? Or are you more.... seeking external appreciation?

 

[Irvine511]

I don't think I'm really willing to fully expound on what I meant there, but sometimes I feel rather surplus to requirements so to speak, not only in social situations etc. but in the general passing of my life and this leads me to feel under appreciated some how as in no one really takes not of my worth.

It's probably just my overly melancholic mind acting up again though and I know I can live with that. It's most definitely "kick up the arse time".

hmmmm ... since i don't have much to go on, i think i'm going to say that it's due to two things: you're smart (at least your posts are well-written), and you're young (judging by your photo in the LS).

smart young people often feel underappreciated because they are. you're young, and no one wants a smarty-pants kid telling an adult -- especially in a workplace situation -- what to do or how to do it. there's a tremendous heirarchy in place, and it often works to the detriment of the best ideas. the thing to do, while you're young, is to understand your intrinsict worth, understand that life is stacked against you, and understand that it is fleeting and temporary and one day you'll be a heavyweight, yet with all the knoweldge that getting your arse kicked around and being underapprecaited accrues in you.

in social situations ... well, that's a bit different. i think it might have to do with the fact that you are young, and there's a fundamental truth out there that might explain why you don't think people appreciate you as much as you think they should: people are too busy thinking about themselves to think about you.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

How do I get back the parts of my heart and soul that I gave to men who were so unworthy of that?

I just want to find a guy who is a truly good friend, what is the best way to go about that?

 

[Irvine511]

How do I get back the parts of my heart and soul that I gave to men who were so unworthy of that?

I just want to find a guy who is a truly good friend, what is the best way to go about that?

before i answer, one thing i'd like to bring up is that some of these questions -- and good questions, don't get me wrong -- are venturing outside of the subject area where i felt like i had originally thought i might be able to offer some insight, i.e., why men act the way that they do, what men want, what are they thinking, and just how do their bits-and-pieces work ... that said, i'm happy to answer these questions, but it's more just me as a person talking rather than as some sort of self-described guru in the ways and means of men.

1. i think you get those pieces back by recognizing them, claiming them as yours, and simply take them back. it's not as if you've lost something, it's as if he still has something that you've given him, and you need to take it back. and you take it back by giving yourself permission to do so. you gave it to him in the first place; now it is time for you to say that you are taking them back. and this can only be done in your head and your heart. and this is an example of where the head is more powerful than the heart. you said yourself he's not worthy of it. it's as if you gave the keys to a car to a 16 year old and he promptly drove it into a telephone poll. obviously, he's not worthy of your car (or even a driver's license), so, as you would with a child, you simply take the keys and walk away. this is a time to use your head. this is a time to actually think a bit like a man and keep things black-and-white, and simple. it's over. he sucks. pick up the pieces, reassemble them, and then move on.

2. the best places to meet men who you just want to be friends with are, i think, through shared activities and interests. church groups, chess clubs, book clubs, etc. friendships are based on mutually held interests or experiences, first, and then the evolve into other things. men are no different, and since many men have a multitude of hobbies -- from repairing cars to collecting old books to smoking lots of blue crack when work is slow -- pursuing a hobby is a great way to go about finding men and building a friendship around a mutually shared interest. i'm also not opposed to using the internet -- places like match.com are primarily for romantic connections, but if you were to say in your profile that you're just looking for friends, i think you might find some people who are looking for friends as well. you can't expect reaching out through the internet to solve your problems, or to order you up and deliver you a friend as if they were on overstock.com, but it can be another way to keep options open and you never know when someone might nibble. finding a way to translate your interests into activities would be, i think, the best place to meet similar minded people.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

Well I've given up on even wondering why men think, act the way they do so that's why I asked those questions instead.

I understand about the activity thing.It was more wondering how I can find a guy to be friends with who I can trust and be completely myself with, who actually cares about me and doesn't play games and hurt me too much. I just get so tired of not being accepted for who I am, and I finally reached the point in my life a few years ago where I actually believe I deserve that. I don't trust men very easily at all, so that would be one question I could ask about men-how can you tell for sure that he is trustworthy?

Basically I need to be able to trust my instincts again, lately they haven't worked. I need to stop wishful thinking, projecting qualities on people that aren't there. There, I solved my own problem

 

[Irvine511]

I understand about the activity thing.It was more wondering how I can find a guy to be friends with who I can trust and be completely myself with, who actually cares about me and doesn't play games and hurt me too much. I just get so tired of not being accepted for who I am, and I finally reached the point in my life a few years ago where I actually believe I deserve that. I don't trust men very easily at all, so that would be one question I could ask about men-how can you tell for sure that he is trustworthy?

as you noted, here is the source of the problem.

if you don't think men are trustworthy, that suspicion is going to come across -- though men might not be as emotionally intuitive as most women are, in general, you know when something's not right, when someone's not there, when someone's holding back -- not emotional but logical sense can be made by observing a pattern of behavior.

i think you'll be fine.

 

[MissVelvetDress_75]

Irvine

I am 32 years old. I work two jobs. I still live at home.

Do women consider me a loser?

Not at all.