US Politics XVIII: the illegitimate partisan sham thread

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NYT White House mouthpiece Maggie Haberman is already hinting that Trump wants to divert from this course, and Iran has basically stated that this retaliation is all they intend to do so long as Trump backs off. So this may settle down here, as long as Trump actually sticks with this plan. Who knows how long that will hold true.

Meanwhile, Elizabeth Warren got bullied into falling in line on the rhetoric about Iran by Meghan fucking McCain. I can't imagine confidence in her ability to debate Trump is high.
 
I thought Warren did just fine with Megan 'MY DAD IS JOHN MCCAIN!!!' McCain. Ignore the little brat. She brings nothing of value.

I originally thought Warren would struggle in debates, but she's a bit wittier than I gave her credit.

No one is going to do well in debate with Trump, assuming there are debates. How can you debate with someone who literally lies about everything?

As for Iran, this isn't the end of this. I think they're playing Trump and his administration. They will get their revenge at some point, and that's not including any proxy groups that'll act out.
 
i hate everything.

According to flight data recorded by Flightradar 24, the plane took off at 2:42 universal time, or 6.12 a.m. local time, a little more than three hours after Iran launched more than a dozen ballistic missiles at Iraqi bases hosting U.S. troops. Three minutes later, it had reached an altitude of nearly 8,000 feet and was continuing to climb at a steady ground speed of 276 knots, or 318 mph. Then, abruptly, it dropped. A state-run Iranian media outlet released a video that appeared to show the aircraft descending in flames before impacting the ground.

An Iranian official told the IRNA news agency that a fire had broken out in one of the engines, causing the pilot to lose control.

Engine malfunctions can certainly cause planes to crash but generally not in the manner observed with Flight 752. The wing, not the engine, is what keeps a plane in the air, and even if a plane loses power in all its engines, it can still glide for a considerable distance under pilot control (see: the Miracle on the Hudson). Even if an engine catches fire, the flight crew generally has time to respond.

Worth noting too is that Iran’s explanation came implausibly quickly, before officials had scarcely had a chance to pick through the still-smoldering debris. Tellingly, Ukrainian officials, who had endorsed the engine-failure explanation soon after the crash, soon backtracked, saying it was too early to ascribe a cause.

Meanwhile, the sudden loss of flight data suggests a catastrophic event that instantly destroyed or disrupted the electronic equipment that transmits the data.

To be sure, there are ways other than a missile strike that a passenger plane can come to catastrophic grief soon after takeoff. In the case of Flight 752, however, none seem to fit very well. The plane was fairly new, the pilots quite experienced. It is plausible, however, that Iranian air-defense forces would have been on high alert. President Trump had already warned that the U.S. military would aggressively bomb Iran if the country used force in the spiraling escalation between the two countries. Tehran, the nation’s capital, would be an obvious target. Memories remain fresh of U.S. airstrikes against Baghdad at the start of its wars against Iraq.

If the tragedy was indeed the result of an accidental shoot-down, it presents eerie echoes of the destruction of Iran Air 655, an Airbus A300 that the U.S. destroyer Vincennes shot down on July 3, 1988, killing all 290 aboard. That accident also happened during a period of heightened tensions between the U.S. and Iran — though in that case, it was overeager U.S. personnel who mistakenly pulled the trigger.

In the wake of this morning’s crash, some voices argued against premature speculation. For instance, one much-circulated set of images showed the plane’s wreckage with circles around what seemed to be puncture marks from shrapnel. Nick Waters, a member of the group Bellingcat, which did extensive open-source intelligence investigations into another shoot-down of a civilian airliner (MH17 over eastern Ukraine in 2014), urged caution. “Hey all, be careful about analysis of holes in various parts of the plane,” Waters tweeted. “For example: these images show the same piece, where at least some of the ‘holes’ actually appear to be small rocks or other debris in higher resolution images.”

Given the pace of air-crash investigations, it will be at least several days before a clearer picture emerges and months or years before the truth can definitively be known. For now, the tragedy seems almost uncannily engineered to stimulate public reaction with a trifecta of breaking-news hashtags: Boeing, Iran, and Ukraine.

Iran Plane 737 Crash in Tehran: Was It Shot Down?
 
While I do not count out the notion of an accidental shoot down at all, the speculation there is a bit much. Aircraft engine failure can absolutely take down an aircraft if the engine failure is catastrophic. If an engineer somehow manages to spontaneously explode, for example, and perhaps at 8000 feet the aircraft is in a roll because it’s still observing takeoff airspace, and that explosion damages flight control surfaces on the wing and renders it uncontrollable, the aircraft could easily roll into a stall and fall. It would be abnormal for a 737-800 for sure, which is an aircraft with a tremendous record. I haven’t looked up that particular aircraft’s age, but 737-800s aren’t always new anymore, and maintenance records are far more important than age honestly.

Anyways. Iran’s refusal to pass over the box to Boeing is more of a red flag here, but I don’t like the overreach of the author’s speculation.
 
Watching a "Frontline" episode right now about the Trump administration's immigration policy as related to El Paso, and how that tied into the mass shooting that eventually took place there.

Everyone in this administration that signed off on and supported this awful, heinous policy a) are absolute pieces of shit and can go straight to hell, and b) deserves to be charged with human rights violations and thrown in jail. If and when we get a Democrat back in the White House, we NEED to demand that happen. This is just...horrifying.
 
scene: senate hart office building, late night, thursday january 2, 2020.

"senator, iranian general qasim soleimani has just been killed in baghdad."

"who?"

"uhhhhh..."

ZQhqlS2.png


https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?q=/m/0406shn&geo=US
 
While I do not count out the notion of an accidental shoot down at all, the speculation there is a bit much. Aircraft engine failure can absolutely take down an aircraft if the engine failure is catastrophic. If an engineer somehow manages to spontaneously explode, for example, and perhaps at 8000 feet the aircraft is in a roll because it’s still observing takeoff airspace, and that explosion damages flight control surfaces on the wing and renders it uncontrollable, the aircraft could easily roll into a stall and fall. It would be abnormal for a 737-800 for sure, which is an aircraft with a tremendous record. I haven’t looked up that particular aircraft’s age, but 737-800s aren’t always new anymore, and maintenance records are far more important than age honestly.

Anyways. Iran’s refusal to pass over the box to Boeing is more of a red flag here, but I don’t like the overreach of the author’s speculation.


https://www.cbsnews.com/live-update...ukraine-today-2020-01-09-live-stream-updates/
 
We are going to see more and more of innocent lives lost the longer Trump stays in office.

Iran is to blame for the shooting down passenger plane (assuming it turns out to be true), but Trump started all of this.
 
Yep most Canadians I think know trump lost by 3M votes for the popular vote and most are disgusted by that and by trump in general. Sadly we still have our share of hardcore trump supporters here.
Good to know you folks know, and most of us have been/are fed up with the Electoral College even more so now because hyper-gerrymandering has now often given Republicans advantages. Eh, sorry to hear you've got some Trumpetts in your midst!

We need to get this trending and make this a big rallying cry for the country at large. Demand that all Trump supporters out there be the ones signing up to fight, and the rest of us will stay out of it. Let them be the ones who have to suffer the consequences of the stupidity they voted for for once.

It'd be awesome if soldiers en masse said "Nope, we're not on board with this and we're not going over there." Would be hard to get a war going without anyone willing to actually go, after all. But I don't know how likely that is or if they can do that.

I co-sign the "Fuck you, Trump supporters" sentiment. You guys have officially lost any right or room to mention Obama, Hillary, or any future Democrat's policies and actions ever. The only thing I'd ever want to hear any Trump supporter say going forward is, "I'm sorry for being a complete and utter moron and voting for a shithead president, that was incredibly wrong of me." But of course, I'm not holding my breath on that ever happening, so since it won't, then I'd just prefer you guys not ever talk again at all.

I think under military law a soldier can refuse an order that they think is truly immoral, and out of "laws of war" bound. One reason i know this is because it became a major issue in a tv show i was watching. The writer/creator was careful about this stuff.

:whistle: "get on your boots, yeah"

and add me as a co-signer.
 
I think under military law a soldier can refuse an order that they think is truly immoral, and out of "laws of war" bound. One reason i know this is because it became a major issue in a tv show i was watching.

My Netflix account would like to know which tv show we can take our 'laws of war' cues from.

I'm guessing you're not gonna say 'The Apprentice.'

:laugh:
 
I think under military law a soldier can refuse an order that they think is truly immoral, and out of "laws of war" bound.

this is correct. one reason i know this is because i was in the army and was told this exact thing many times: any soldier has the right to refuse any clearly illegal or immoral order at any time.

anyways, if a country tells your military to leave and you refuse to withdraw your troops, doesn't your army technically become an illegal occupying force? asking for a friend.
 
Isn't everyone distraught that Marianne Williamson dropped out? Let's pause for a moment of meditative silent reflection. Trump can still be redeemed by our collective love power, I just know he can.
 
My Netflix account would like to know which tv show we can take our 'laws of war' cues from.

I'm guessing you're not gonna say 'The Apprentice.'

:laugh:
:eyebrow:
Be careful who you snark at BW.

The show was a five year SF tv novel called Babylon 5 a Military Space Station created for diplomacy and commerce - that was created and mostly written by J Michael Stracynski (JMS). While various aspects of the crews military lives, decisions came up over the 5 years of episodes these particular eps; Season 3/eps 8,9,10 and Season 4/ep 20, highlight the conundrum of decisions the military command and support staff of the space station would have face regarding the 'laws of war'.

He was careful in his research, and a lot of military people thanked him for his portrayals and accuracy.

So, yeah. :D

this is correct. one reason i know this is because i was in the army and was told this exact thing many times: any soldier has the right to refuse any clearly illegal or immoral order at any time.

anyways, if a country tells your military to leave and you refuse to withdraw your troops, doesn't your army technically become an illegal occupying force? asking for a friend.
Thanks for your RL info back up. :up:
 
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:eyebrow:
Be careful who you snark at BW.

The show was a five year SF tv novel called Babylon 5 a Military Space Station created for diplomacy and commerce - that was created and mostly written by J Michael Stracynski (JMS). While various aspects of the crews military lives, decisions came up over the 5 years of episodes these particular eps; Season 3/eps 8,9,10 and Season 4/ep 20, highlight the conundrum of decisions the military command and support staff of the space station would have face regarding the 'laws of war'.

He was careful in his research, and a lot of military people thanked him for his portrayals and accuracy.

So, yeah. :D

Ahhh, that's a good one :up:

Always been partial to STTNG, myself. Same genre.
 
Last night, the White House tweeted a picture of the White House with snow flurries in the forefront proclaiming “First snowfall of the year!”

It was 54 degrees and clear at the time.
 
goodbye, Mr. Booker.

i always thought he would be a good candidate, and he was clearly among the top debaters in the field. i think, at the end of the day, his optimism and overall niceness came across as maybe too naive to convince voters that he could take on total amoral trash like Trump and win.

i also assume Rosario will be moving along soon as well.
 
I agree - smart guy but the "aw shucks" impression he gave off was the wrong thing at the wrong time in history.

Trump is going to savage whoever is the Democratic nominee because he's more base than a neanderthal, without a shred of dignity or class. There are two issues there. First, how the remaining (competitive) candidates stack up against him in a one-on-one scenario like the debates. I think that he'd just slaughter Biden, who is not a fast thinker, not quick on his feet and has a tendency to give up mid stream. I also just don't think he has the killer instinct or the rudeness within him to combat Trump on the spot. Bernie, I absolutely think would tell him where to go. Warren less so, but she's quick with quips so she could get a few jabs in. Buttigieg I also don't think has it, and he's seen his polling go down when he took on a sharper tack in the debates so I don't think that plays to his strengths. The other consideration is media coverage. They have always under-covered Bernie and continue to do so. We can't just ignore this, because Trump and every disgusting thing to leave his mouth will be shoved down our throats 24/7. I frankly don't see anyone on the Dem side who can conceivably win the media race, except maybe if Bloomberg says fuck it and blows his entire fortune on a paid media campaign.
 
speaking of Bloomberg ... i realize this op-ed is basically a pitch to the moderates who read the Post (this is distinct from, say, deciding the entire WaPo is in on some anti-left conspiracy to destroy Bernie), but it does give focus and clarity about the actual usefulness of Bloomberg's inexhaustible resources:

What people don’t yet seem to have grasped is this: Bloomberg is going to spend an astronomical amount of money on this race. Probably at least $1 billion. Maybe twice that. Possibly even more. Numbers like that upend every model of every presidential race in history. He can buy every news adjacency on cable and local television stations from now until November and not make a dent in his net worth. U.S. politics has never seen such financial throw weight in a presidential campaign.

Look at it from the point of view of the “down ballot” Democratic candidates. If you’re running for the U.S. Senate, or in one of the 100 “competitive” House races, or for governor or state senate, it’s likely that one of Bloomberg’s many super PACs is going to put vast amounts of money behind your campaign with “issues” TV advertising, digital advertising, voter-registration drives and organizational support. Buttressing that will be his national campaign infrastructure, staffed and financed at a level never before seen in presidential politics.

By Election Day, every anti-Trump voter in every precinct will have been contacted repeatedly, and then driven to the polls, if need be. Which will increase Mr. or Ms. Down-Ballot Democratic Candidate’s vote by, what? Two percent? Five percent? Ten percent? It doesn’t matter. It will add untold votes to the D side of the ledger.

Well, you say, so what? Bloomberg can’t possibly win the nomination of this Democratic Party electorate, the one that almost nominated Sanders over Hillary Clinton (and wishes it had). The one that loves Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-N.Y.), celebrates Medicare-for-all and campaigns for transgender bathrooms. The one that’s woke, whatever that means.

That Democratic electorate, however, isn’t the Democratic electorate. Yes, that first group gets all the ink, but it doesn’t have as many votes. Someone who unifies more moderate, pragmatic Democratic voters will win virtually every big state beginning on Super Tuesday.

And as it happens, that’s when Mike Bloomberg’s campaign begins.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...zLet2isltstTwA2shvyW_hGlJ9UEW-EG3Q9-UHt3RyIrU



i think the point about down ballot races is a good one.

a good and moral person will look at 2020 and say, "which candidate is best suited to removing Donald Trump from the White House?" the answer is that all candidates will probably perform about the same. the second question is, "which candidate will win those three critical swing states -- PA, MI, WI -- where the race will likely be decided?" the answer is also about the same, which is that a compelling argument can be made for Biden (moderates) or Bernie (white working class Obama/Trumpers). the third question should be, "which candidate is going to most help the Senate races in against vulnerable GOP candidates?" do we really see the voters of NC, AZ, IA, and ME? or, will anything matter if Bloomberg's tide of cash can lift all boats?

flipping the Senate is almost nearly as important as defeating Trump. *nothing* progressive will ever get done so long as McConnell is the majority leader.

if Hillary had won, we'd still have 8 justices on SCOTUS, guaranteed.
 
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Bernie scares me because of the unknown. No one really attacks him because of his base. For as vicious as the Clintons are made out to be, they never took the gloves off against Bernie. She needed his supporters and in the end didn’t get enough of them to win.

The GOP and Trump will find something in his closet as well as make something up. What if Bernie has something horrible that’s been buried....and the GOP are just sitting on it ?

Of course I’m coming around to saying let him get the nomination. See what happens but mostly to keep his base from destroying the party if Biden or someone else gets the nomination. Maybe enough moderates and independents bite their tongue at higher taxes, discontinuing private insurance, and free college in order to bury Trump at the voting booth. It’s not like these policies will be implemented anytime soon.

If Democrats turn out in full force, they win no matter who it is.

Here’s this regarding impeachment


https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/1216834874507780097?s=21
 
People don’t attack Bernie because they know his only path to victory comes through plurality amongst dem voters, and developing a bad reputation with his base will backfire hardcore as it did with the general election - they’ll simply stay home if they think you oppose the progressive movement.
 
So Elizabeth Warren is saying that when she invited Bernie to her house to tell him she was running(they had lasagne accdg to Bernie's senior advisor) Warren said she thought a woman could win and Bernie disagreed.
 
So Elizabeth Warren is saying that when she invited Bernie to her house to tell him she was running(they had lasagne accdg to Bernie's senior advisor) Warren said she thought a woman could win and Bernie disagreed.

This is the sort of nonsense that most sensible people hate about politics.

Agreed re: Bloomberg's money. That's why he should get out of the race and pledge to spend whatever for whichever candidate. Why the vanity project in the meantime? The Senate is actually more important than the Presidency. Even if the worst happens, Trump IMO won't live to 2024, at least not coherently. The guy is a walking neurological event waiting to happen.
 
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