Rest of U2 Survivor: Achtung Baby - Round 5

[Diemen]

Adios, Ultraviolet.

 

[RavenBlue]

Baby baby baby

 

[susanp6]

Ultraviolet

 

[U2democrat]

If it comes down to Acrobat and The Fly I have NO idea which to vote against...they're both so awesome.


Ultraviolet...should have gone a long time ago.

 

[Screwtape2]

Love Is Blindness. Great song live but not that great on the album.

 

[LemonMelon]

The Fly vs. Acrobat would be a good final round, methinks. Down with Ultraviolet and Love Is Blindness!

 

[coolian2]

Actually, the more I think about a live Survivor, the more I think it might work. How would you folk feel about some rules like this?

1. To qualify, a song has to A). be a U2 original that was played live as an independent track, i.e. not a snippet, and B). a recording has to be available online.
2. Where The Streets Have No Name is disqualified as it would be the unquestionable champion and its inclusion would render the tournament pointless. (Perhaps One too? I say that out of no malice towards the song - I even like the 1997-09-23 perhaps. I rather suspect it is the obvious winner in Streets' absence, but with those two gone, I think it's wide open.)
3. No requests for uploads in the tournament threads. All requests will be ignored. There will instead be a link to Music On The Internet.
4. Opinions on studio versions are relevant only insofar as how the live song improves (or doesn't improve) on the album track.
5. In the case of songs with multiple distinct live versions or with lengthy live careers with varying quality, voters can choose to vote based on a favourite era/version, an opinion of the song's overall live career, or a combination (e.g. "overall, I think A Sort Of Homecoming was the better live song, but I'm voting it off because I think the 1987-11-08 performance of Bad is just so superior and transcendent"). It is up to the individual voter.

Thoughts?

Alternatively it could be done as best song of x tour, best song of y tour etc

Although i don't know how many poll options you can do. Probably not nearly enough.

I like your criteria so far.

 

[FitzChivalry]

Love Is Blindness

It should've gone a looooong time ago.

 

[Axver]

I'd have trouble with that because in some cases the songs change so much from tour to tour. It would be incredibly involved and probably impossible to do, but I was for a short time considering going album to album with each tour's version of each song.

It's just too much, though.

I think that's why the fifth rule in my post is probably a good idea. Then people can vote on what stands out most to them. We're already somewhat doing that this tournament, with the polls just having "Holy Joe" and people can vote based on their preferred mix.

So some people can vote to protect Bullet because they think the ZooTV version was one of U2's best live moments, or some can vote off WOWY because of its post-1992 marked decline, or I'll want One Tree Hill to win because I think 1989-12-26 is the defining live U2 moment, etc.

Although, I think what you're saying would work now that I think about it more.

Funny how we both did the "that won't work ... hmm ... maybe it could" thing.

Alternatively it could be done as best song of x tour, best song of y tour etc

Although i don't know how many poll options you can do. Probably not nearly enough.

Polls can have up to 30 options. I'm not sure we could really split it by tour because of how much some songs changed while others have stayed the same. What do you do with a song like I Will Follow?

Your idea's definitely worth considering though. It would be nice to come up with a live Survivor that works. We'll do an album and song Survivor in 2009, once the new album has had time to sink in and to see how the outcome compares to earlier tournaments. Perhaps a live Survivor could fill in the time between this current tournament and that one.

 

[phillyfan26]

I think that's why the fifth rule in my post is probably a good idea. Then people can vote on what stands out most to them. We're already somewhat doing that this tournament, with the polls just having "Holy Joe" and people can vote based on their preferred mix.

So some people can vote to protect Bullet because they think the ZooTV version was one of U2's best live moments, or some can vote off WOWY because of its post-1992 marked decline, or I'll want One Tree Hill to win because I think 1989-12-26 is the defining live U2 moment, etc.

Funny how we both did the "that won't work ... hmm ... maybe it could" thing.

Originally I was thinking, "JT Bullet and Zoo TV Bullet are clearly two seperate things, it shouldn't be that hard." Then I remembered something like I Will Follow has been played on about ten or eleven tours. And then something like WOWY had two different play styles on the same tour. So, fuck it, your way works best.

 

[Axver]

If we go by albums rather than tours, a live Survivor could have brackets like this:

Pre-Boy: Street Mission, The Fool, Lost On A Silent Planet, The Speed Of Life, Cartoon World, The King's New Clothes, Inside Out, Trevor, Pete The Chop, The Dream Is Over, Jack In A Box

Boy: I Will Follow, Twilight, An Cat Dubh/Into The Heart, Out Of Control, Stories For Boys, The Ocean, A Day Without Me, Another Time Another Place, The Electric Co., Shadows And Tall Trees

October: Gloria, I Fall Down, I Threw A Brick, Rejoice, Fire, Tomorrow, October, With A Shout, Scarlet

War: Sunday Bloody Sunday, Seconds, New Year's Day, Like A Song, Two Hearts Beat As One, Surrender, 40

1979-83 Non-album: Boy/Girl, Another Day, 11 O'clock Tick Tock, Touch, Things To Make And Do, A Celebration, Party Girl, Father Is An Elephant, Carry Me Home

UF: A Sort Of Homecoming, Pride, Wire, The Unforgettable Fire, Bad, Indian Summer Sky, MLK

JT: ISHFWILF, WOWY, Bullet, RTSS, IGC, TTYW, One Tree Hill, Exit, MOTD (Streets excluded)

RAH: Van Diemen's Land, Desire, Hawkmoon 269, When Love Comes To Town, Love Rescue Me, God Part II, All I Want Is You

Non-album 1986-90: Womanfish, Lucille, Spanish Eyes, Silver And Gold, She's A Mystery To Me, Slow Dancing

Achtung: Zoo Station, EBTTRT, UTEOTW, WGRYWH, So Cruel, The Fly, Mysterious Ways, TTTYAATW, Ultra Violet, Love Is Blindness (One excluded)

Zooropa: Zooropa, Babyface, Numb, Lemon, Stay, Daddy's Gonna Pay, The First Time, Dirty Day, The Wanderer

Pop: Discotheque, DYFL, Mofo, IGWSHA, SATS, LNOE, Gone, Miami, IYWTVD, Please, WUDM

ATYCLB: Beautiful Day, Stuck, Elevation, Walk On, Kite, IALW, Wild Honey, New York

HTDAAB: Vertigo, Miracle Drug, SYCMIOYO, LAPOE, COBL, ABOY, Crumbs, OOTS, Yahweh

Non-album 1995-06: HMTMKMKM, Miss Sarajevo, Two Shots Of Happy, Holy Joe, North And South Of The River, TGBHF, Sweetest Thing, We Love You, THTBA, Fast Cars, Window In The Skies, Wave Of Sorrow

Any song that debuts live after its category begins will not be included.

And I think that covers every original song U2 has ever done live for which we have a recording (except Streets and One, as we want a real contest). I think it could be a really enjoyable tournament.

 

[phillyfan26]

No live covers?

 

[Axver]

Also, I'm thinking a seeding/finals system would be something like this.

There are fifteen categories above. It looks likely that if this follows on from the current Survivor, a new album would simply be too new live, so there won't be a sixteenth category for it. Any older songs (i.e. released prior to 2008) that debut live in time to make the start of their category qualify.

So from those 15, we'd seed them like this:

Top six categories: four songs proceed to finals
Next six categories: three songs proceed to finals
Bottom three categories: two songs proceed to finals

The quarter finals will be four rounds of 12 songs. The top six from each group proceed to the semi-finals, two rounds of 12. The top six again proceed to the final, a round of 12. We then work down to the winner.

I'm also thinking that perhaps we could do a covers round. Some of U2's live covers are very popular. In that case, it would be the bottom four rather than three categories send two songs to the quarter finals and two of the quarter finals have 13 songs.

Covers: Satellite Of Love, People Get Ready, Can't Help Falling In Love, Stand By Me, Help, Knockin' On Heaven's Door, All Along The Watchtower, What's Going On, C'Mon Everybody, Redemption Song, Maggie's Farm, Southern Man, Springhill Mining Disaster, Helter Skelter, The Saints Are Coming

(Basic criteria: had to be played at least 13 times - I was going to do 15 but I relaxed it to 13 to include the recent and well known Saints. Can't be a gimmick like Edge's karaoke. I am thinking of cutting CHFIL and Help due to them being not terribly substantial.)

Lastly, how will the album seedings be decided? I have a system to propose that may seem elitist, but I think it is less flawed than a public vote. To adequately seed, you need to be familiar with all the songs involved. Thus, I will personally invite people to submit rankings of the categories. This will include a public invitation for participants, in which I will reserve the right to only include people who I believe are indeed familiar with the material (though I don't expect having to cut anybody, as I can't imagine anybody falsely volunteering), plus my own invitations to people I know are very familiar with U2's live history. They will allocate points to each category, 15 (or 16) to their favourite and so on down to 1 for their least favourite. I will then add up the totals and that will be our seedings.

Phew. Funny how devising the details of a tournament can be a way to take your mind off things and pass the time when really sad stuff happens ... worked for me just now anyway! So that's why I just went to all this effort.

 

[Axver]

No live covers?

I didn't see this question before I made my last post - have a look at my proposed covers category in there and tell me what you think. I think it manages to cover all of the notable and well-known covers, and throws in a couple of interesting ones too.

 

[phillyfan26]

Good hustle.

I'm working fast on those B-sides to get ready to be a judge.

 

[pepokiss]

who votes for Acrobat?

 

[Axver]

I'm working fast on those B-sides to get ready to be a judge.

I'll upload some stuff as the time approaches, as there are people like you who I want to be seeding judges who may not know some of the especially obscure songs. A lot of the pre-Boy stuff and Carry Me Home, Lucille, We Love You, etc. isn't exactly well known even amongst serious live fans.

To try to combat this for the tournament, we could make a master thread on Music On The Internet with links to an example performance of every song for those who haven't heard it. Every poll thread here in EYKIW would link to it.

 

[coolian2]

Polls can have up to 30 options. I'm not sure we could really split it by tour because of how much some songs changed while others have stayed the same. What do you do with a song like I Will Follow?

The way i thought it would work would be given the popularity of some songs on certain tours and the lack of popularity of the same songs on other tours it would take out some of the extra-subjectiveness.

And if Bullet The Blue Sky (Popmart) was up against Bullet The Blue Sky (Zoo TV), etc in the final then it wouldn't be so bad.

Obviously performances which were really similar like October (October), October (TUF), October (JT) and so on don't need to be repeated each tour.

 

[Axver]

Here's an idea: songs with extremely strong differences from tour to tour could be split up prior to the tournament and we could vote on which one is most popular, and only that one is considered in the album voting.

For example, we could have a Bullet round. JT/Lovetown, ZooTV, Popmart, Elevation, Vertigo. The winner, let's say ZooTV, goes on to the tournament proper and is listed as "Bullet The Blue Sky (ZooTV version)" in the polls.

Here's the songs I propose we would have rounds for:

Sunday Bloody Sunday (War/UF Tours, JT Tour, ZooTV Tour, Popmart Tour, Elevation Tour, Vertigo Tour)
With Or Without You (JT/Lovetown, 1992 ZooTV, 1993 ZooTV, Popmart/Elevation/Vertigo)
Bullet The Blue Sky (JT/Lovetown, ZooTV, Popmart, Elevation, Vertigo)
Running To Stand Still (JT/Lovetown/Vertigo, ZooTV)
Desire (Lovetown, ZooTV, Popmart/Elevation, Vertigo)
The Fly (ZooTV, Elevation, Vertigo)
Discotheque (Popmart, Elevation, Vertigo)
Elevation (Elevation, Vertigo)

What have I missed? What about those songs sometimes done electrically and sometimes acoustically?

 

[phillyfan26]

I think then you run into the problem of judging which songs had significant changes or not. However, I think the overall idea is good (though I will hate Interference more than ever if Elevation Fly wins and I can't vote for Zoo TV or Vertigo).

Other ideas off the top of my head:
I Will Follow (All Other Tours, POPMart)
Zoo Station (ZooTV, Vertigo)

I know there's others, but I'm blanking.

 

[coolian2]

Depends on the differences, if it's essentially the same it doesn't matter.

But even a regular song like I Will Follow has varied greatly over tours, eg slow and shit on JT, somewhat acoustic on Zoo, the phaser on Popmart and again different on Elevation and Vertigo.

Either way it's done isn't too important, but i feel as though splitting it by tour would get the completely more definitive result.

 

[Axver]

I think then you run into the problem of judging which songs had significant changes or not.

Yes. It's always going to be subjective. I agree with Ian, though; separating it out does give the definitive result. I'm not sure whether we should have qualifying rounds and only one tour's version of the song competes on the album, or if it should be that all versions compete on the album and if multiple versions go through to the final, that's Interference's choice.

I must say that Zoo Station wasn't a song that had occurred to me. I Will Follow is probably borderline, Popmart version aside. Another borderline one that just occurred to me is 11 O'clock Tick Tock - 1980-85 is the definitive double (and rarely triple) solo version, while 1987, 1989-90, and 2000-01 all had the single solo version.

Kite also would have to be included, with its distinctly different Elevation and Vertigo versions.

 

[coolian2]

Perhaps if we had multiple versions we could have some type of preliminary final where we vote for the best of the versions so we don't have multiples in the actual final

 

[Axver]

I am worried that if we don't vote on the different versions of a song prior to its album round, having multiple versions of one song could conceivably split voting and distort the result. For example, say we have WOWY 1993 and WOWY 1997-2006 and ISHFWILF. There are 40 people who want ISHFWILF to go through ahead of those two WOWYs, and 25 who want either or both WOWYs to go through instead of ISHFWILF. However, because the 40 WOWY haters are split and each WOWY gets 20 votes, ISHFWILF is instead elimianted by the 25 who don't have anything else to vote for.

In any case, I've decided to go through all the songs from my earlier master list and make a list of what I think is significantly different - with the already suggested ones by PF26 and Ian too. Feel free to add to this or debate inclusions.

If we go ahead with this, because it is subjective, someone is going to have to have the final say - i.e. those of us running it. Before the whole thing begins, we will make our final decision and that will be that.

So, the list:

11 O'clock Tick Tock (1980-85 double solo, 1987-2001 single solo)
I Will Follow (Boy/October/War/UF, JT/Lovetown, ZooTV, Popmart, Elevation/Vertigo)
The Electric Co. (with The Cry, without The Cry)
Sunday Bloody Sunday (War/UF, COH/JT, ZooTV, Popmart, Elevation, Vertigo)
... is Pride different enough, or is it just various degrees of shittiness of essentially the same live song? I don't exactly play it enough to really tell.
With Or Without You (JT/Lovetown, 1992 ZooTV, 1993 ZooTV, Popmart/Elevation/Vertigo)
Bullet The Blue Sky (JT/Lovetown, ZooTV, Popmart, Elevation, Vertigo)
Running To Stand Still (JT/Lovetown/Vertigo, ZooTV)
In God's Country (JT/Lovetown, Elevation)
Mothers Of The Disappeared (JT, Popmart, Vertigo)
Desire (Lovetown, ZooTV, Popmart/Elevation, Vertigo)
Angel Of Harlem (Lovetown, ZooTV, Elevation, Vertigo)
When Love Comes To Town (Lovetown, ZooTV)
All I Want Is You (Lovetown/Elevation/Vertigo, ZooTV/Popmart)
Zoo Station (ZooTV, Vertigo)
Who's Gonna Ride Your Wild Horses (Electric, acoustic)
The Fly (ZooTV, Elevation, Vertigo)
Stay (ZooTV, Elevation)
Discotheque (Popmart, Elevation, Vertigo)
Staring At The Sun (electric, acoustic)
Please (Popmart, Elevation)
Stuck In A Moment (Elevation/Vertigo electric, Vertigo semi-acoustic)
Elevation (Elevation, Vertigo)
Kite (Elevation, Vertigo)

 

[phillyfan26]

Pride's different and yet the same every time. It's a toss up.

 

[phillyfan26]

Walk On had an electric and acoustic, didn't it?

Also, two OOTS styles.

 

[coolian2]

How many different versions do you think about though - such as i love the acoustic ISHFWILF but i'm not a fan of full band. I'd vote in favour of the acoustic versions ahead of some songs, but i know the majority are thinking of the full band.

It's a toss up not matter which way it's done, it's just a matter of comprehensively determining how much different a song has to be before it gets its own poll, since it looks like we're doing it this way.

 

[Axver]

Pride's different and yet the same every time. It's a toss up.

I say leave it out. Saves time. I don't expect Pride to get anywhere anyway. Well, as long as faceless n00bs don't ruin things. Pride will probably be the biggest case of "This is LIVE Survivor! Put aside your affection for the studio version!"

Walk On had an electric and acoustic, didn't it?

Also, two OOTS styles.

Ah yes, glad you pointed those two out. I'm surprised that I forgot to include Walk On - I'd thought of it earlier. I didn't even consider anything on HTDAAB though, thinking "it's only been one tour; not enough time to change".

 

[Axver]

How many different versions do you think about though - such as i love the acoustic ISHFWILF but i'm not a fan of full band. I'd vote in favour of the acoustic versions ahead of some songs, but i know the majority are thinking of the full band.

... acoustic ISHFWILF?

Oh, is this some occasional third leg ZooTV thing I paid no attention to or something?

 

[phillyfan26]

You're getting it now.