NFL 2007 Part 4

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No spoken words said:
I left Eli behind a long time ago, LM, and am having a broader conversation. But, it seems like you're not reading what I say, and, I keep trying to end it. We're going in circles. We disagree.
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We do keep going in circles because I respond to what you write, but then you write something else while I'm responding. :lmao:
 
I do not want to argue, no. You're not going to convince me that you're correct, and I really do not want to convince you of anything. Bradshaw struggled a lot early on, yes, but not even at his Zenith did he put up #'s like a Marino. The Steelers just did not throw enough for that. But, as I said, he was really clutch in the playoffs, a lot like Montana and Brady are, where the mistakes are usually limited and they come up big when needed. And, LM, Bradshaw had a fucking cannon....he was a HS Javelin throwing champ, and he could throw a ball 50 yards with no effort, and I think he could throw over 75. Then again, Jeff George could allegedly throw a ball 90 yards, so, yeah.

And now he's a doofus of a broadcaster. Yes. :)
 
So, bringing this back around (I know we're not really talking about him but...), do you believe Eli Manning is more of a clutch QB than Carson Palmer? :hmm:
 
I think that Eli has had more chances to be clutch, because the Giants are in a lot more close ball games than the Bengals.

But, I've seen Eli lead the Giants to a bunch of 4th Qtr wins, not so much this season but the season before, and he's just had 3 strong performances in a row in the post-season on the road, so his resume is building.

I'm obviously biased against Palmer, mostly over his poor play down the stretch the season before this one, when the Bengals were in control of their playoff destiny and gagged (They were 8-5, and lost their next 3 games...just winning one of those games would have gotten them into the playoffs)....and due to his vitriolic comments about his own teammates and coaches when they lose. That just rubs me the wrong way, when a QB consistently points the finger at everyone else but himself.

All that being said, he has a fantastic arm and throws all the passes you'd want...deep, sidelines, over the middle, he even has touch....he's very gifted, but I do think that he has a screw loose, and when you're in discussions like this, and are dealing with intangibles, it's hard to make concrete points. And, you are right, he is asked to win games when his defense gets worse and worse.

Fuck, that's a lot of typing with no real answer. Thus far in their careers, there's more evidence supporting Manning. But, if you said to me that you'd rather have Palmer than Eli, I can certainly understand why.
 
By the way, a lot of saber-metricians claim that there is no such thing as a "clutch" ball player. Which is a whole other discussion, and one of the reasons I do not like to go by pure stats alone when thinking about a player's value. I feel like if you cannot objectively say to me that a David Ortiz or Jeter or Montana or Brady or Jordan was/is a clutch athlete, then we have nothing to discuss. By "we" I do not mean you, LM, just anyone that supports such a theory.
 
No spoken words said:
By the way, a lot of saber-metricians claim that there is no such thing as a "clutch" ball player. Which is a whole other discussion, and one of the reasons I do not like to go by pure stats alone when thinking about a player's value. I feel like if you cannot objectively say to me that a David Ortiz or Jeter or Montana or Brady or Jordan was/is a clutch athlete, then we have nothing to discuss. By "we" I do not mean you, LM, just anyone that supports such a theory.
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Oh, OK. Yes, I believe that there are players who can be trusted to come through for their team a large percentage of the time, while others play their best ball only when the situation is favorable.
 
No spoken words said:
By the way, a lot of saber-metricians claim that there is no such thing as a "clutch" ball player.
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Those are folks who want to take the human element out of games and make it all about numbers, they don;t fully understand sports and winning in my not so humble opinion. I've seen too many players raise their game when it counted (the ones you mention and others) and many others wilt under pressure to not believe in "clutch" as well as "unclutch" players.
 
well i see that the giants are no longer awful with a dreadful secondary... now they're a great team, but eli still sucks.

:hi5: for that logic.

ya know... i've been defending eli for a long time now, saying how you see the flashes of brilliance and you can see how good he could be, but going into this season you just had to be worried that he didn't have the mental fortitude to put it all together.

but something changed this year... tiki left, ran his mouth... but eli answered back. he played great in week 1, then as many forget he had a shoulder injury that would have forced many to sit, but he played through it. and i'm sure it effected him for a large part of the season.

eli was getting run out of town, esp. after the chicago game. but then something clicked. i don't know what it was, but he came out against new england and was a different person. he was a leader.

is it going to last beyond this post-season run? i don't know. i certainly hope so, but you can never be sure. but the worst QB to ever play in the super bowl? give me a friggin break.

and i have to agree with no spoken words and hewson here... stats, especially idiotic created stats such as QB rating, are incredibly over-rated. there is no stat to measure moxy.

perfect example... ladanian tomlinson. unbelievable talent, terrific numbers, gigantic pussy. he's a loser.

eli? yea... he's not brady. he's not peyton. but he's had his share of 4th quarter comebacks already... denver and some other game against a team from some shithole city down the jersey turnpike from new york... the name of the city escapes me.

he's been in the playoffs 3 times, won a division title, and now, after beating dallas in dallas and green bay and the great favre in the most frozen of frozen tundra's to win the NFC title (in his first try, none the less... didn't take him three losing efforts with a by far superior team to get in).

so, yea... you can have your stats and qb ratings and all that other stuff... and that's fine. but anyone who knows anything about sports knows that when it's all said and done the only stat that means anything is the almighty W.
 
Hewson said:
Those are folks who want to take the human element out of games and make it all about numbers, they don;t fully understand sports and winning in my not so humble opinion. I've seen too many players raise their game when it counted (the ones you mention and others) and many others wilt under pressure to not believe in "clutch" as well as "unclutch" players.
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Oh, I obviously agree....and while I think the work of the Bill James' of the world has its place, I think you need to meld that with the more old school approaches....which Theo does, obviously. But writers like Rob Neyer, they're useless to me, because they watch less and less baseball and read more and more boxscores, and you miss a lot that way.
 
I'll chime in. I have said nothing positive about Eli. I will try now.

I think you have to give him the credit he is due lately...especially in the playoffs. The biggest thing I see different is his management of the game...and his ability to limit/remove the stupid turnovers.

You can say that last night he better have been on since he had all day to throw. But even some of those passes to Steve Smith were thrown where they needed to be thrown, but Smith couldn't bring them in.

That said, I think i would have to take Palmer over Eli right now. I think the atmosphere in Cincy does not help him out at all. Though, I do understand what you are saying about his attitude. Eli still needs to carry this type of performance through an entire year for me to completely buy into him. I need more than flashes of brilliance. Even Grossman could do that. :sad:

You want to see what happens when a team has no offensive line but decent/good talent on offense? See the Detroit Lions this past year.

Oh, NSW....I'd take Big Ben over both Eli and Palmer. He is a good qb.
 
Got Philk? said:
Oh, NSW....I'd take Big Ben over both Eli and Palmer. He is a good qb.
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I'm a huge Roethlisberger fan. And, not just cos I love the Steelers.....you'd never have heard me tout Maddox or Kordell or Brister......what I like most about Ben is that he can make something out of nothing, and, he's tough....he'll dive head first for 1st downs, take on tacklers, etc...Steeler fans appreciate that sort of shit. He had a really good season, after a pretty shaky one last year....I was ecstatic when he fell to them in the draft, what a difference he's made for them.
 
Kordell Stewart is a good one for LM to use...the Steelers went to the playoffs a few times with him under center....and, in fact, he had some good regular seasons, no joke...but he was a disaster in the playoffs, especially the AFC Championship game. When he was "Slash", he was fucking excellent, a great target for O'Donnell.
 
He also was not exactly the best "leader" in the world. But, he was not better or worse than Tommy Maddox, who replaced him. Steelers went from about 1983-2004 without a truly good QB. O'Donnell was probably the best of the bunch, and he did get the Steelers to the SB, but, oh, Larry Brown....
 
What do you think of Bettis when he says...".

"For some reason, Coach would never really commit fully to Kordell ... and because of that, we had no consistent leadership from the quarterback position,"
or
"I think they pulled Kordell partly because they didn't want to pay him a big salary and signing bonus. It was cheaper for them if he didn't have success. If he recovered and had a huge year, then the public sentiment would be, 'Hey, you've got to re-sign him for whatever it costs.' I'm telling you, it was a monetary decision. The Steelers had no interest in paying Kordell his market value."
 
I am not sure what to make of that, to be honest.

It is true that Kordell played for 2 seasons, then hit the bench and Tomczak took over, then was the starter again....

As for that 2nd quote, well, maybe it's true, but it sure was smart, no, cos look at what happened to him. :)
 
Obviously this is a ploy by Bill Belichick to force the Giants to game-plan for the quarterback duo of Matt Cassel and Troy Brown. After about two plays, Tom Brady will enter the game wearing a bloody sock.

After the Patriots win, Brady will credit the Patriots team doctors for inventing a new surgical procedure involving tendons from a cadaver and getting him back on the field.
 
Headache in a Suitcase said:

so, yea... you can have your stats and qb ratings and all that other stuff... and that's fine. but anyone who knows anything about sports knows that when it's all said and done the only stat that means anything is the almighty W.
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But, again, why is Eli treated as if he's the sole reason for that W? :slant: Perhaps there's more to it than that.

Perhaps Palmer isn't getting W's himself because the team around him sucks ass (which it does)? :lol: Once Eli puts up the numbers (which he is beginning to do) on a consistent basis, he will get all the credit you believe he deserves. :yes: But no QB deserves to be treated as if they're the class of their position by playing mediocre ball, even if their TEAM is winning. And let's face it, that's what Manning has been doing since he got into the league. :shrug:

Hiding behind W's is a poor way of gauging QB talent, since there are many other positions involved in a team's success beyond QB. :down:
 
^In regards to Headache...Rex Grossman lead the Bears to the Super Bowl. He got lots of W's despite games with 5-6 int's.

^But LM, most people haven't been giving Eli credit up until more recently because of his mediocre play. It is only because of how he has played lately, which has been not just good enough to win, but very good. No interceptions through 3 playoff games should be something notable.
 
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LemonMelon said:


But, again, why is Eli treated as if he's the sole reason for that W? :slant: Perhaps there's more to it than that.

Perhaps Palmer isn't getting W's himself because the team around him sucks ass (which it does)? :lol: Once Eli puts up the numbers (which he is beginning to do) on a consistent basis, he will get all the credit you believe he deserves. :yes: But no QB deserves to be treated as if they're the class of their position by playing mediocre ball, even if their TEAM is winning. And let's face it, that's what Manning has been doing since he got into the league. :shrug:

Hiding behind W's is a poor way of gauging QB talent, since there are many other positions involved in a team's success beyond QB. :down:
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no one ever said the QB is the only reason the giants are winning. and tom brady isn't the sole reason the pats are winning. but when the guy at the helm is winning, shit, he's gotta get a little credit. all i'm doing is trying to defend a guy who's played extremely well over te past month now.

and you can have your stats... i'll "hide behind the W's." why is joe montana considered a better QB than dan marino? thank you.

you can have the guys who put up gaudy stats. i'll take the guys who win games.
 
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