NFL 2007 Part 4

[DaveC]

I think if you asked 20 football fans who they'd rather have, 18 would say Eli.

Over who? Rex Grossman? I bet it would unanimous. I'd take Eli in that pairing too. Rex Grossman shouldn't even be in the NFL, whereas at least Eli is a mediocre NFL-calibre player.

But given the choice of quarterbacks not named Tom, Peyton, or Brett in the NFL, I can think of a half-dozen off the top of my head I would pick before Eli.

 

[Got Philk?]

^what about Philip Rivers?

 

[DaveC]

^what about Philip Rivers?

What about him?

He's just about on the same level as Eli, really. A great team around him (LT, Shawne Merriman, Cromartie), and he can play well when he gets hot, but more often than not he's mediocre at best.

For the record (because I know someone's going to mention him sooner or later), Donovan McNabb is (well, at least before this season - now he just plain sucks) in this group, as well.

If Eli Manning was at the helm of the (current) Eagles, he wouldn't have done any better than Chunky Soup did.

 

[No spoken words]

Over who? Rex Grossman? I bet it would unanimous. I'd take Eli in that pairing too. Rex Grossman shouldn't even be in the NFL, whereas at least Eli is a mediocre NFL-calibre player.

But given the choice of quarterbacks not named Tom, Peyton, or Brett in the NFL, I can think of a half-dozen off the top of my head I would pick before Eli.

Would you take Carson Palmer over Eli? I might, based on stats. But, that dude's team keeps going 8-8 or worse, despite his gaudy stats and big mouth, while the Giants go to the playoffs. I guess we just disagree on Eli's merits.

 

[DaveC]

Would you take Carson Palmer over Eli? I might, based on stats. But, that dude's team keeps going 8-8 or worse, despite his gaudy stats and big mouth, while the Giants go to the playoffs. I guess we just disagree on Eli's merits.

Yes, I would take Carson Palmer over Eli if I were creating a team from scratch. Without hesitation.

That is exactly my point.

Great quarterback (before '07) + shitty team = the Cincinnati Bengals

Middling quarterback + great team = the 2007 NFC champs

ETA: Having a team that's not comprised of compulsive drunk drivers also helps the Giants, too.

 

[No spoken words]

But the Bengals are not necessarily a shitty team. They have a great offense, but their defense has gotten worse since their playoff appearance 2 seasons ago. I think Palmer's a loser, and his shit attitude and lack of leadership qualities does not help an already shitty locker room.

You can't just ascribe a "good team" label using hindsight/their record.

But we could go round and round on this.

Pitchers and Catchers soon....

 

[phillyfan26]

I'd say Eli probably takes too much of a beating, all things considered, about 60% of which is because his name is Manning, and 20% of which is because he's playing New York, and 10% of which because he whined his way out of San Diego. That leaves 10% of legitimate criticisms.

He's good, not great.

 

[No spoken words]

I'd say Eli probably takes too much of a beating, all things considered, about 60% of which is because his name is Manning, and 20% of which is because he's playing New York, and 10% of which because he whined his way out of San Diego. That leaves 10% of legitimate criticisms.

He's good, not great.

I pretty much agree with the above.

 

[DaveC]

This has to be one of the most civilized Manning (Eli or Peyton) conversations we've ever had in this thread

 

[No spoken words]

I want to do more Palmer bashing.

 

[CTU2fan]

OK it's funny, but as I read this discussion the first guy I thought about comping Eli with was Rivers, and Philk got him, next was Palmer and NSW got him...just funny we thought of the same guys. Put it this way, if you were drafting NFL QB's how many guys get picked ahead of Eli? You have the obvious Tom & Peyton. Then there's guys like Palmer and Big Ben that IMO are ahead of Eli. Is Eli a top-10 QB in the NFL?

 

[No spoken words]

Knowing what I know now, CTU2 fan, I'd NEVER draft Palmer ahead of Eli. Eli's stood up to a maelstrom of scrutiny and name calling, and has basically been above it all. Palmer, the colossal douche bag, calls out teammates and coaches with regularity, and has one playoff appearance to his credit. Eli, in 3 years as a starter, has made 3 playoff appearances.

I'd draft Peyton, Brady, Roethlisberger ahead of him.....maybe Brees......maybe Romo.....Favre is better but are you drafting for one season or for now and the future??.......I'm not sure who else....Rivers, maybe.....

 

[LemonMelon]

Would you take Carson Palmer over Eli?

In a heartbeat.

QBs are overrated. They may be the face of their team, but they only deserve roughly 5% of the credit. It's a team sport, and QB is just one position. Eli is still average; he just hasn't been making any horrible mistakes. Reminds me of Trent Dilfer when the Ravens went to the SB...

 

[No spoken words]

In a heartbeat.

QBs are overrated. They may be the face of their team, but they only deserve roughly 5% of the credit. It's a team sport, and QB is just one position. Eli is still average; he just hasn't been making any horrible mistakes. Reminds me of Trent Dilfer when the Ravens went to the SB...

You'll never be more wrong than this.

 

[LemonMelon]

You'll never be more wrong than this.

What's next out of you, RB is an irreplaceable position? Most important positions are the lines. Every time.

 

[No spoken words]

Never said QB's were irreplacable, and RB's certainly can be....but if you've talked yourself into thinking that QB's are not more important than most other positions on a football team then you're very very mistaken. The Ravens of the world are mostly anomalies. I'm really surprised to see such a silly post from you.

 

[LemonMelon]

Never said QB's were irreplacable, and RB's certainly can be....but if you've talked yourself into thinking that QB's are not more important than most other positions on a football team then you're very very mistaken. The Ravens of the world are mostly anomalies. I'm really surprised to see such a silly post from you.

I don't understand your post. Are you saying that they're more important or equally important than any other position? Because I simply can't agree that QB is the most important part of an offense by far like so many believe. There have been too many instances of terrible QBs running good offenses for me to buy that.

I don't care how brilliant a QB is; even Peyton Manning would have sucked on a team like the Rams this year that had no offensive line. Tom Brady has arguably the best offensive line in football.

 

[No spoken words]

You'll be able to name individual seasons where a mediocre QB lead an offense to success, but you'll not be able to name poor QB's that lead teams to prolonged success. It does not happen.

This year's Steeler team had a poor offensive line. Very poor. Roethlisberger had to run for his life almost every game. Good run blocking line, bad pass protection. Guess what? They won their division. Put Rex Grossman behind that Steeler line and they go 6-10. Steelers were 6-10 they year they drafted Ben...same roster goes 15-1 the next season. That's not an accident.

Go find anyone involved with the game, at any level, and ask them if your theory is true. If you can get one to agree, I'd be shocked.

 

[speedracer]

QB is the most important single position on a football team, and it's not close.

Now if you want to compare the value of a QB versus a 5-man offensive line, that might be close.

 

[DaveC]

Most important positions are the lines. Every time.

While the rest of your post is debatable, I agree wholeheartedly with this.

You can have Tom Brady, LT, Randy Moss, Plaxico Burress, and Terrell Owens lined up for your offense, but if your O-line sucks, they still won't win.

 

[No spoken words]

I also agree that teams rarely sustain success without a good offensive line, collectively. D-line, you can win with just a decent one if the rest of your D is sound.

However, as I said, the Steelers had a good year with a poor O-line. Could they keep that success up with such poor pass protection? No.

 

[LemonMelon]

This year's Steeler team had a poor offensive line. Very poor. Roethlisberger had to run for his life almost every game. Good run blocking line, bad pass protection. Guess what? They won their division. Put Rex Grossman behind that Steeler line and they go 6-10. Steelers were 6-10 they year they drafted Ben...same roster goes 15-1 the next season. That's not an accident.

Kind of a no-brainer there, don't you think? Steelers won their division due to a strong running game and an excellent defense. Had nothing to do with Roethlisberger. He limited the mistakes, managed the games, and they won. Rex Grossman would have screwed everything up by being sacked repeatedly and throwing a ton of INTs. That's the difference between a great QB and a terrible one. But what if the Steelers had no running game? The whole season would have been absolutely worthless, regardless of who was behind center.

All I'm saying is that, while QB is a hugely important position and often separates the great offenses from the passable, the QB doesn't deserve all the credit for the success of an offense, and especially not the success of the team as a whole, which happens WAY too often these days. Again, I really don't think even the elite QBs would be where they are today without good pass protection.

 

[No spoken words]

Kind of a no-brainer there, don't you think? Steelers won their division due to a strong running game and an excellent defense. Had nothing to do with Roethlisberger. He limited the mistakes, managed the games, and they won.

Actually, this is also not true. I'm a Steeler fan, so, I watch every single game of theirs. Their success had a lot to do with Roethlisberger. You're starting to make stuff up.

Ben threw for over 3,500 yards and had 23 TD passes. He had the best year of his career. Trust me, he was a HUGE part of their success.

I hear you, other aspects of team's offense deserve credit, and no QB can enjoy a great career without a good line, that does not change the fact that QB is the most important single position on the field.

 

[LemonMelon]

Actually, this is also not true. I'm a Steeler fan, so, I watch every single game of theirs. Their success had a lot to do with Roethlisberger. You're starting to make stuff up.

I never said Roethlisberger had a terrible year or anything, but the Steelers had a really good rushing game as well. Again, Big Ben is also an anomaly; how many QBs can do that with zero pass protection, really?

 

[phanan]

Wow, busy afternoon and four pages worth of discussion going on here.

I'll add that the QB position is the most important single position on the field. Yes, the O-Line is also very important, but sometimes when you have a great QB, they can make that line look very good at times, especially if you have someone like Brady with a quick release. I can't tell you how many times he was responsible himself for getting plays off with the O-Line not doing its job.

 

[No spoken words]

I never said Roethlisberger had a terrible year or anything, but the Steelers had a really good rushing game as well.

True.

 

[LemonMelon]

Wow, busy afternoon and four pages worth of discussion going on here.

I'll add that the QB position is the most important single position on the field. Yes, the O-Line is also very important, but sometimes when you have a great QB, they can make that line look very good at times, especially if you have someone like Brady with a quick release. I can't tell you how many times he was responsible himself for getting plays off with the O-Line not doing its job.

I watched 90% of the Pats' games this year, and he did have great protection the vast majority of the time, but on top of that, you're right, he's fantastic at improvising when plays go awry.

 

[Dalton]

Who is the last DOMINANT running back that LED his team to the super BOWL win?

Terrell DAVIS?

 

[phanan]

Corey Dillon was pretty dominant for the Patriots in 2004, although when you say led, I guess that won't apply when Brady is the quarterback.

In 2000, Jamal Lewis was pretty much the offense for Baltimore, although the defense led that team.

 

[LemonMelon]

BTW, forgot to point this out...

Knowing what I know now, CTU2 fan, I'd NEVER draft Palmer ahead of Eli. Eli's stood up to a maelstrom of scrutiny and name calling, and has basically been above it all.

Dude. No. Is a QB's ability to withstand name-calling more important than their ability to get a higher QB rating than 75?