Exactly. Which is way different than some white dude tattooing a Swastika to his arm.
For more on how swastika aficionados are big dumb idiots, consult the Breaking Bad thread.
I am actually very much trying to understand you. But the simple reality is that the continued use of the flag either turns a willful blind eye to what it stood for or grossly tries to reshape it.
I've read similar comments online about how the flag doesn't really mean that, that secession was about choosing their own lifestyle, etc etc, and to cut to the heart of it, it's a load of bs. I'm not attacking you, so I'm sorry if it comes across that way, I'm attacking these ridiculous notions. To be fair you may in fact merely be referring to how some young people in the south now see the flag, and not all the other issues behind it, so I also apologize if there's a bit of spill-over there from other discussions.
If you want to make the argument that it's tone deaf of people to embrace it, that's your prerogative and a reasonable stance. But that doesn't make it a Swastika, doesn't dispute what Impy has said, and has nothing to do with what Kanye is doing.Well that's a nice sidestep to the question, but anyways.
Since when was the discussion about how the Confederate flag is viewed in the south? Is Cobl, for instance, from Texas? Are you? So how does where one is from change the historical significance of an image if it is overwhelmingly negative? It's not like I make that perception up. It factually is.
But, speaking of what respected educators/historians who, unlike us, are actually from the south, have to say about the symbolism behind the display of the confederate flag, here is one example:
I'm also quite aware that there are still many people (not necessarily Imperor, it sounds like he doesn't necessarily support it's display) down there who have a hopelessly romanticized view of it that blatantly ignores or at minimum tries to reframe it's history and meaning.
I'm totally fucking around with that comment and you know it. Come on, dude.
Tattooing is very different from wearing a shirt, first of all. I'm probably splitting hairs, but I just wanted to note that.It's actually not, although you may not recognize the reference I was making. Google "ManWoman". It's pretty much the same statement: reclaiming a symbol that was historically positive and then used for a brief period for horrible reasons, and trying to reshape it back to it's original use.
Except, of course, that there is no original "positive use" of the confederate flag. It was symbol of oppression from the day it was invented.
I get that too, but to what end? Where does it lead?
But that doesn't make it a Swastika,
And I'm from the northeast. I don't see confederate flags very often, and when I do it's usually Civil War reenactors (I'm just a couple hour from Gettysburg, after all). But I've been to the south and have family there, and have in fact been to Texas as well, so it's not like I'm sheltered from what's going on there either. It's a different culture than the one you, as a Canadian, and I, as a Philly guy, are used to.
For more on how swastika aficionados are big dumb idiots, consult the Breaking Bad thread.
Tattooing is very different from wearing a shirt, first of all. I'm probably splitting hairs, but I just wanted to note that.
Second-of-ly, Kanye is a black guy. That's also different than people trying to wipe the slate clean on the Swastika.
(Although I do get the point about it being more of a concern that it's on tour merchandise,
They wouldn't be trying to wipe the slate clean, first of all. That's not what we're talking about. The oppressed group trying to own something is a different ball of wax.
Two, no, I wouldn't, though part of that has to do with you immediately knowing someone's black vs. immediately knowing someone's Jewish. The other part is that the Swastika is more divisive than the confederate flag, in most people's view (obviously not yours).
That so many people get off on being offended is one of the worst things about our culture.
Honestly, I'm surprised you feel so strongly against Kanye using the symbol. Considering all the connotations and controversy surrounding it, it seems pretty clear to me that it's a hearty FUCK YOU to the stereotypical Confederate good-ol'-boy flag-fliers. I'm sure he knows damned well what statement he's making.
There's a major difference between Kanye wearing that and a white guy wearing that. Do you disagree?To be honest, these two sentences kindof contradict each other. You immediately know that it's a such a divisive symbol because Kanye's black. If he weren't, he might just be another white southerner celebrating southern culture, right? (still offensive tho?)
it makes sense in the context of the new album, and that Kanye knows what he's doing.
There's a major difference between Kanye wearing that and a white guy wearing that. Do you disagree?
Beyond it how? Not sure I follow.No. But this is beyond one famous black celebrity wearing it, which you keep sidestepping.
Beyond it how? Not sure I follow.
I guess I neither see it as a brilliant statement nor do I see it as a highly offensive ploy to make money off of racist symbols, if that's your question here. I would find it in much poorer taste for him to be doing the same with a Swastika than I am with a confederate flag. Beyond that? I don't have much else for you.At this point, yes.
He's not starting dialogue, engaging fractured communities in a healing process, he's not even making all that coherent or grand of a statement, really..
He's just selling fucking tshirts.
Like I said if the Beastie Boys went in tour wearing Nazi armbands and sold tour merch with swastikas on it, it wouldn't matter how many songs on the album they were touring were about sticking it to Neo-cons everywhere and reclaiming their pride or whatever, it would be seen as outrageously offensive and noone in their right mind would buy that tshirt.
But since Kanye did it, it's a brilliantly genius statement and foolish fans worldwide will be part of the movement and wear it proud and tell offended people to lighten up and that they are being too sensitive. While he laughs all the way to the bank? Ugh
Kanye wearing a Confederate flag, in and of itself, speaks to a personal conviction of some kind. Slapping a price tag on the same concept invites a more cynical interpretation. I really don't know. I think he believes every word of his songs and he puts a price tag on them as well. That mix of art, politics and commerce is reality for many musicians.
him to be doing the same with a Swastika
Uh ... you're the one who brought it up in the first place.Well that's completely irrelevant, isn't it?