US Politics II

[mama cass]

2. Cracks me up when people say the Antifa are out to do this or that...they don't exist. There is no "Antifa...southern chapter. Please send dues." Anyone can don a uniform of anti-fascists and go out in the streets. Some are doing so to fight fascism. Some are doing so to break shit. The Antifa member #4 in Berkeley is not member #4 in Charlottesville...there is no set of rules or characteristics. So quit referring to them as a group that is aligned with the Democrats when they aren't even a group. It's more an idea.

there is an organised Antifa group here

 

[Vlad n U 2]

There's a principle called the paradox of tolerance that states that a tolerant society should be intolerant of intolerance because if intolerant people gain power than a tolerant society ceases to exist. This paradox naturally leads to the question of how far do we go in combatting intolerance. I for one, am perfectly fine with violence being used against Nazis. Nazi and white supremacist ideology explicitly advocates violence and if they gain power they will use violence against the marginalized. Better to stop them before they gain power. If violence had been used against the Nazi Party in the 1920s and early 1930s, they might not have gained power and the horrors of the Holocaust would not have happened.

Agreed. I'm fairly certain even fucking Hitler said this himself. Also note how contemporary alt-right figures react when confronted ie. Richard Spencer's being punched affected him, made him consider bodyguards and so on.

Fascists want space and a platform. Unchallenged. They want to enter that 'rational' discussion.

There were numerous reports from Charlottesville that antifa groups were protecting protestors from the white nationalist/supremacist/Nazi thugs. Cornell West, among others, said he owed his life to them that day.

This is definitely part of the purpose of antifa, to protect the vulnerable. In many European countries they aim to safeguard minorities (see Red Warriors in 1980s France).

yeah i read about that too... they were trying to protect the clergy, but the clergy asked them to respect their wishes for non-violence and stand back, and the antifa guys respectfully stepped back but were very worried, and then a whole crowd of nazis started to charge at the clergy armed with batons, and it would have been a bloodbath, and the antifa protesters stepped in quickly, went running at the nazis and broke their charge on the clergy - definitely saved them from a beating!

i respect these kids a lot

that's not meant to be how it works - they're not really meant to incite violence, or use violence for the sake of it

they go there ready to jump in and defend when the nazi thugs kick off, to fight back - the fachos don't understand logic and rational discussion, so they need a strong message telling them how vile and unacceptable they are - sometimes things are so evil you need to get angry about them

Seconded. Any sort of violence is usually self defence here.

 

[dazzledbylight]

I don't trust anythign Cornell West has to say. The guy is a blowhard.

If it's true though then that's a great thing antifa did to protect people. We don't know for sure though.

I prefer my information to come from FAKE NEWS

Professor West is often a very thoughtful, insightful man, someone steeped in Afro-American history, theology, a person who particularly respects ecumenical religious people and of course secular humanists. I thought he was a bit too tough on President Obama, but I understand where he (CW) was coming from.

The professor, and several other people of faith were there to be arrested at the demo, but the police stood back, and the protesters surrounded them. They were saved by anrtifa, and the anarchists.

I know ppl who know him, and met him a few decades ago.

You can go to Democracy Now and read Amy Goodwins interview about Charlottesville.

 

[dazzledbylight]

there is an organised Antifa group here

Was rushing through stuff (running out if charge on tablet) so I missed that you described the incident.

Well of course you have an antifa group over there, you're in France right next to Germany who have anti Nazi action type laws . Which makes is sense, considering!

 

[dazzledbylight]

nbelcik yes, I saw a piece/graphic on fb that highlighted that philosopher who talked about the "tolerance paradox". Thanks for bringing it up .

WAAZ thanks for your Phoenix report. 3 1/2 more years of this!?!!

Hopefully Mr Mueller & co.........

 

[AEON]

I for one, am perfectly fine with violence being used against Nazis. Nazi and white supremacist ideology explicitly advocates violence and if they gain power they will use violence against the marginalized.

Well, according to this logic - you are perfectly fine with using violence to stop everything from the BLM to ANTIFA to Islam. White Supremacist groups are not the only ones out there promoting violence (if they are promoting violence these days - it seems most of the violence is acted ON them, and not BY them)

 

[nbelcik]

Well, according to this logic - you are perfectly fine with using violence to stop everything from the BLM to ANTIFA to Islam. White Supremacist groups are not the only ones out there promoting violence (if they are promoting violence these days - it seems most of the violence is acted ON them, and not BY them)

BLM doesn't advocate violence and Antifa only endorses violence against Nazis, who, contrary to your claim, routinely use violence. We literally had a white supremacist murder someone in my hometown last week. And look at the amount of terrorist attacks perpetrated by right-wing terrorists in the US, which is greater than the amount perpetrated by Islamic terrorists. Not to mention that when Nazis controlled a state, 11 million people were killed in a genocide and millions more in a war. That is what Antifa is trying to prevent and why they use violence.

It's why I feel violence against Nazis and white supremacists is justified. It's because those groups advocate violence and if they were to gain power violence against marginalized groups would occur. Look at it as a form of self-defense.

 

[Popmartijn]

Well, according to this logic - you are perfectly fine with using violence to stop everything from the BLM to ANTIFA to Islam. White Supremacist groups are not the only ones out there promoting violence (if they are promoting violence these days - it seems most of the violence is acted ON them, and not BY them)

That's not what he said. Now you're putting words in his mouth by including other organizations/movements/religions. Maybe it is good to look up the following:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox

 

[Salome]

White Supremacist groups are not the only ones out there promoting violence (if they are promoting violence these days - it seems most of the violence is acted ON them, and not BY them)

Yeah, you really should start a support group for poor White Supremacists who suffer from the consequences of having been brutally attacked

 

[mama cass]

White Supremacist groups are not the only ones out there promoting violence (if they are promoting violence these days - it seems most of the violence is acted ON them, and not BY them)

how can you even

 

[BVS]

Well, according to this logic - you are perfectly fine with using violence to stop everything from the BLM to ANTIFA to Islam. White Supremacist groups are not the only ones out there promoting violence (if they are promoting violence these days - it seems most of the violence is acted ON them, and not BY them)

You are smarter than this.

 

[Vlad n U 2]

He's just picking up from where Oreganoropa left off?

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

You are smarter than this.

 

[Popmartijn]

how can you even

Well... Electoral-vote.com

When asked which racial group is most discriminated against, 45% of Trump voters said it was whites, 17% said Native Americans, 16% said blacks, and 5% said Latinos. That flies in the face of reality, but Trump seems to understand how his base thinks. When asked which religious group faces the most discrimination in America, 54% of Trump voters say it is Christians, 22% say Muslims, and 12% say Jews. The strong view of much of Trump's base that the victims in society are white Christians means that his comments that "many sides" were to blame for the violence in Charlottesville aren't going to hurt him. This is what they believe, too.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

Everyone really should read Devil's Bargain. It's eye opening.

 

[Diemen]

(if they are promoting violence these days - it seems most of the violence is acted ON them, and not BY them)

Did you actually watch any video from Charlottesville? During the rally at UVA on Friday, the Unite the Right white supremacist mob literally surrounded a small group of protestors and then began beating them. This was clearly shown on film. On Saturday, a white supremacist intentionally rammed his car into a crowd of protestors, killing one woman and injuring dozens. Not to mention the countless other clashes of violence that took place.

To look at these events and then imply that it's the white supremacists who were somehow the victims of the lions share of violence is mind-blowing.

 

[mama cass]

Well... Electoral-vote.com

ugh

clearly they want the freedom to be bigots and feel persecuted when they get called out for it - or it could be some kind of "end times" persecution complex thing, seeing as many evangelicals seem to think they're living in the end times right now and believe Trump will herald in the apocalypse

seriously though, they wouldn't know what discrimination or persecution was if it bit them on the ass

 

[AEON]

Did you actually watch any video from Charlottesville? During the rally at UVA on Friday, the Unite the Right white supremacist mob literally surrounded a small group of protestors and then began beating them. This was clearly shown on film. On Saturday, a white supremacist intentionally rammed his car into a crowd of protestors, killing one woman and injuring dozens. Not to mention the countless other clashes of violence that took place.

To look at these events and then imply that it's the white supremacists who were somehow the victims of the lions share of violence is mind-blowing.

We will see what the trial brings to light about the car ramming. If it murder, then it is murder. Obviously unacceptable . From the footage I've seen - it doesn't seem the car came out of nowhere...like the Muslim suicide vans. However, the white nationalists and those protesting the removal of the statue, had a right to march peacefully. This is a basic right in our society. It was ANTIFA that came in, overcame the police barriers, and engaged the marchers with rocks, sticks, and spit (plenty of footage of that around the Internet)

Had ANTIFA ignored the parade (because the neo- Nazis and KKK have been marching for decades with little fanfare) - these marchers would made local news and that's it. Instead - they attacked and caused a riot - giving the white nationalists WAY more press and coverage than they ever could have hoped for...

In America - you cannot suppress free speech without consequence. Bad ideas will simple fade out if you let them. It is only when we use violence (or the law) to prohibit free speech, do we extend the life of bad ideas.

ANTIFA - dressed like ISIS and pulling down statues, are the Brown Shirts of today.

 

[anitram]

Well... Electoral-vote.com

I'm really glad this is being published.

Perhaps now we will finally have people on the left of Trump stop insisting that we have to reach out to these deplorables (kind word for them), and try to understand them and their economic woes. Utter 100% bullshit and I've said it from the beginning. His base are racists who are used to privilege and therefore to them equality looks like persecution.

Forget about them. The best you can hope is that through time and attrition their next generations are less racist and more integrated into a progressive and global society.

In the meantime concentrate on those millions who don't tend to vote at all and may be the very small % of the squishy middle, but keep in mind that even those blowhards voted for the racist-in-chief over a woman who sent e-mails. No coddling them.

 

[anitram]

Had ANTIFA ignored the parade (because the neo- Nazis and KKK have been marching for decades with little fanfare) -

That's before they had a racist in the White House supporting them.

Let's not pretend that these are normal times.

These people are beyond deplorable. But let's all the rest of us stay home while they march with torches screaming obscenities openly armed, their numbers and prominence increasing due to becoming an acceptable wing of your ruling party. Sorry, some of us are from Europe, unlike you, we know where these things tend to go.

 

[Irvine511]

ANTIFA - dressed like ISIS and pulling down statues, are the Brown Shirts of today.

as opposed to the actual Brown Shirts of today? how can you even say such a thing?

the ones on drove a car through protestors and killed a girl? the ones who were heavily armed with semiautomatic weapons? the ones who told VICE news they want a war and are prepared for violence?

you think ANTIFA is worse or even their equivalent?

it's really sad what Trump has done to straight white men. he's made you -- through juvenile syntax and equal parts whinging and boasting (seriously, have we ever had a bigger whiner in the WH?) -- think that you're surrounded by enemies, that you're under attack, that there is equal badness "on all sides." that you have this pathetic desire to be loved by and believe in a mentally ill man who would sooner step on your face and sexually assault a woman and insist that some Nazis and white supremacists are actually really good people.

it's utterly irrational.

at least he's exposed a true darkness, a fundamental ugliness in some corners of America. this kills many of our notions of exceptionalism -- not better, just different -- and shows that we are every bit as vulnerable fascism and authoritarianism and scapegoating as anyone, the very scapegoats 25 years of right wing media has been serving up.

i want no part of this imaginary country called Trump Land.

 

[AEON]

That's before they had a racist in the White House supporting them.

Evidence? Quotes from Trump that support this POV?

Let's not pretend that these are normal times.

What are normal times exactly? Have we ever had them?

These people are beyond deplorable. But let's all the rest of us stay home while they march with torches screaming obscenities openly armed, their numbers and prominence increasing due to becoming an acceptable wing of your ruling party. Sorry, some of us are from Europe, unlike you, we know where these things tend to go.

Using that logic - you should be shutting down all communist parades because "we know where these things tend to go" (see the millions slaughtered by the Bolsheviks).

Marching is not a crime (provided there are permits). Acts of violence are a crime. When marchers become violent - THEN they are criminals. They are not criminals for disagreeing with you.

 

[Irvine511]

we can start with the birth certificate, which was baldly racist. but this sums up a lot of it:

The bigoted rhetoric from organizers of the deadly hate show in Virginia resonated, sounding much like a speech from a Donald Trump campaign rally.

“This is our home and our kith and kin,” Matthew Heimbach, an organizer of Saturday’s rally in Charlottesville, said in a speech four years ago.

“Borders matter, identity matters, blood matters. Libertarians and their capitalism can move to Somalia if they want to live without rules,” Heimbach said in that speech. “In the West, we must have standards and enforce them. The ‘freedom’ for other races to move freely into white nations is nonexistent. Stay in your own nations, we don’t want you here.”

In other words, Make America Great Again.

Anti-Muslim sentiment, a wall at the Mexican border, a stay-away message to refugees are all themes shared by the Trump campaign and organizers of a white supremacist rally that turned deadly when a neo-Nazi plowed a car into a crowd of counter-protesters, killing a 32-year-old woman and injuring 19 others.

“Look at the campaign he ran,” Charlottesville’s Democratic mayor, Michael Signer, told CNN’s “State of the Union.”

“Look at the intentional courting both, on the one hand, of all these white supremacists, white nationalist groups like that, anti-Semitic groups. And then look on the other hand, the repeated failure to step up, condemn, denounce, silence, you know, put to bed all those different efforts.”

Heimbach and his alt-right alliance never got to deliver their speeches and add to their library of hate before chaos erupted and protesters clashed.

But if the lineup was any indication, white nationalist supporters were in for a collection of alt-right monologues that could have been penned by White House speech writers.

It was, after all, White House Senior Policy Adviser Stephen Miller who wrote both Trump’s inaugural “American carnage” address, and his “I alone can fix it” speech to the Republican National Convention.

Miller, a protege of Attorney General Jeff Sessions, another member of the administration with strong white nationalist support, recently made headlines after suggesting the Statue of Liberty was not intended to be a symbol for immigrants.

Miller’s biggest policy achievement was drafting both versions of President Trump’s executive order banning U.S. entry to Muslims from several countries.

It was unclear if Miller, or any of the other alt-right-connected White House advisers — Stephen Bannon, Sebastian Gorka and Sam Clovis among them — were behind the much-maligned statement Trump issued after the Charlottesville unrest.

Instead of specifically denouncing the white supremacists who held the rally and set the tone for the deadly demonstration, Trump suggested that “many sides” were to blame for the violence at the “Unite the Right” rally.

“We condemn in the strongest possible terms this egregious display of hatred, bigotry and violence on many sides, on many sides,” Trump said while vacationing at his Bedminster, N.J., resort.

“No matter our color, creed, religion, our political party, we are all Americans first.”

White nationalist leader Richard Spencer, who also attended Saturday’s rally, plans his own press conference for Monday.

Spencer, one of the Charlottesville headliners, is listed as a key “alt-right” figure in a new guide from the Anti-Defamation League.

Spencer, 39, president of the National Policy Institute, a white nationalist think tank, led a rally in Washington after Trump’s election, in which members raised their arms in Nazi salutes, and declared “Hail, Trump.” He’s also the one who coined the term “alt-right,” short for “alternative right.”

He denied any responsibility for the violence at the rally, and blamed police.

“The idea that I could be held responsible is absurd,” Spencer said. “It’s like blaming the fire department for a fire.”

The key figure behind Saturday’s rally was “white rights” activist Jason Kessler, who lives in Charlottesville and organized the protest.

He is the founder of Unity and Security for America, a right-wing political advocacy group.

Although Kessler claims that he is not a white nationalist or a white supremacist, members of the Ku Klux Klan were slated to be at his side during the protest, just as they were at a Charlottesville demonstration in July.

Kessler, 34, who has been pictured waving the Confederate flag, also launched a campaign to unseat Charlottesville’s only black city councilman.

The rally Saturday included members of white supremacist, white nationalist, alt-right, neo-Confederate, neo-Nazi and militia movements.

Former KKK leader and Trump backer David Duke also attended.

The participants were protesting the removal of Confederate monuments and memorials from public spaces, including the Robert E. Lee Sculpture in Emancipation Park.

Many Unite the Right protesters wore white nationalist and Nazi paraphernalia, and one of their militias arrived armed with heavy weaponry.

Their presence evoked memories of Trump backers who openly carried guns in the streets of Cleveland at last summer’s Republican National Convention, where Trump was nominated.

Ohio is an open-carry gun state, and supporters were applauding Trump on his Second Amendment stance.

Trump’s appointment of Bannon, the former president of the right-wing Breitbart News, as his chief strategist and senior counselor was seen by many as a nod to the alt-right movement.

Bannon, 63, came under fire after divorce court documents emerged alleging he didn’t want his twin daughters attending the Archer School for Girls in Los Angeles because many Jewish students were enrolled at the elite institution.

Under Bannon, Breitbart published a call to “hoist (the Confederate flag) high and fly it with pride” only two weeks after a racist gunman killed parishioners at a predominantly black church in the Charleston, S.C., according to the Southern Poverty Law Center.

Despite weekend rumors that Bannon could be on the outs, his presence in the White House in the wake of the Charlottesville violence signaled the damage had already been done.

“Neutrality in a time of crisis is cowardly,” the Rev. Jesse Jackson said of the President at a news conference in Memphis on Sunday.

“His silence on them gives them confidence that they have the right to do what they’re doing. It’s not good for America,” Jackson said.

“This is a very sensitive time for our country,” he added. “He can’t call out the Ku Klux Klan and the Confederates and the neo-Nazis. They are his supports."

Gorka, a counterterrorism adviser to Trump, attended Trump’s inaugural ball wearing the medal of a Hungarian nationalist organization, Vitezi Rend. The group was founded by Hitler-allied Hungarian dictator Miklos Horthy. Gorka denied to NBC News that he is a member of Vitezi Rend and said he has “completely distanced myself” from any fascist ideology.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...ds-president-trump-rhetoric-article-1.3408936

 

[BVS]

Evidence? Quotes from Trump that support this POV?

I wonder why they feel they have an ally(their words) in the White House?

we must all be stupid and just made this up, right?

:eyeroll:

Marching is not a crime (provided there are permits). Acts of violence are a crime. When marchers become violent - THEN they are criminals. They are not criminals for disagreeing with you.

Literally NO ONE is arguing this.

I take back my previous comment.

 

[AEON]

I was not asking for evidence that white nationalist support white nationalism. I was asking for evidence that Donald Trump was a racist , as in quotes.

 

[AEON]

Amitram is arguing this. She is saying that white nationalist should not be allowed to march because we should know "where these things tend to go"

 

[Diemen]

Using that logic - you should be shutting down all communist parades

Is there an active communist movement in this country right now?

Marching is not a crime (provided there are permits).

The protestors had a permit, too.

Acts of violence are a crime. When marchers become violent - THEN they are criminals.

Yes, because arguing for a white state or white nation doesn't imply any violence whatsoever against those who aren't white. Never mind those marchers who were openly waving Nazi flags, yelling "blood and soil!" and giving Nazi salutes. I'm sure they don't have a violent bone in their body.

 

[BVS]

I was not asking for evidence that white nationalist support white nationalism. I was asking for evidence that Donald Trump was a racist , as in quotes.

Ummm, yeah I got that. Reread my post. Why would you think they have an ally if he hadn't given them reason?

I've posted multiple upon multiple examples over the last years and I know how it goes; you pretend it's fake, sweep under the rug, or pretend you don't understand it to be racist.

Amitram is arguing this. She is saying that white nationalist should not be allowed to march because we should know "where these things tend to go"

Please show me where she said it should be illegal for them to march.

 

[Irvine511]

I was not asking for evidence that white nationalist support white nationalism. I was asking for evidence that Donald Trump was a racist , as in quotes.

white nationalists support the present administration in a way they never have before.

what does that tell you?

also, what would be adequate proof of racism for you? a burning cross? the n-word? does it have to be worse than talking about "our" heritage (in regards to Confederate statues), or calling Mexicans rapists and murderers, questioning Obama's birth certificate, taking days to denounce David Duke and Nazis, claiming that judge Gonzalo Curiel could not hear his case fairly because he's Mexican, appointing Jeff Sessions to AG, stoking violence at his rallies that (as you've noted) are filled with racists, targeting a travel ban towards Muslims, attacking the Muslim parents of a gold star marine and wondering if his mother wasn't allowed to speak (because, well, you know ...), he treats racial groups as monoliths.

and this:

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump...p-racism-examples_us_5991dcabe4b09071f69b9261

and that's just the past 2 years. his businesses have a long history of discriminating against black people, especially.

but, really, it's his rank misogyny and perpetuation of rape culture that bothers me even more. i believe you have a daughter (and a wife) -- how can you look them in the eye and tell them you support a man who brags about sexual assault and is obsessed with where women bleed (Megyn Fox, Mika B)?

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

I was not asking for evidence that white nationalist support white nationalism. I was asking for evidence that Donald Trump was a racist , as in quotes.

You seriously need examples?

Well, let's see, there's this bit about Mexicans from the start of his campaign:

“When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re not sending you. They’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.”

–Real estate mogul Donald Trump, presidential announcement speech, June 16, 2015

And there's more where that came from in this link:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...lse-comments-connecting-mexican-immigrants-an

There's also his belief that a judge would be biased against him because of their Mexican heritage, the full transcript of which can be found here:

Donald Trump's racial comments about Hispanic judge in Trump University case | PolitiFact Wisconsin

And the granddaddy of them all: his years-long quest to try and prove that Obama wasn't born in the U.S.:

“I have some real doubts,” Trump told the “Today” show. He claimed to have sent his own investigators to Hawaii, where Obama was born. "I have people that actually have been studying it and they cannot believe what they're finding."

Trump raised another falsehood in an interview with "Good Morning America," suggesting Obama was trying to conceal his religion by withholding his birth certificate. “Maybe it says he's a Muslim,” he said. Obama is Christian.

The full timeline of the birther conspiracy nonsense, and Trump's association with it, can be found here:

What Donald Trump has said through the years about where President Obama was born - LA Times

The mere fact that actual neo-Nazis, white supremacists, and KKK members, as noted in the article Irvine shared, have outright credited Trump with inspiring them should also be more than enough proof to you that they clearly they saw something in his messaging that encouraged them. As should David Duke's outright endorsement of Trump last year.