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Old 09-29-2008, 08:39 PM   #681
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War costs time effort and money. Informants could also be wrong or have old information but not following up would also be criticized.

I don't know guys how to fight a perfect war. Certainly Petraeus has got a clue on how to in Iraq. Tipoffs on Saddam yielded nothing for a long time until it did. I'm sure it did cost lots of money and manpower.


you realize that pretty much all that has gone wrong has been due to bad people wanting to believe in bad intelligence?

i'm sorry, you're very polite and well spoken, but this comes off as incredibly, incredibly naive. there is only so much blood and treasure to go around, empires are expensive to maintain. this seems like a very easy way to cut costs. we know torture doesn't work. we know it gives you false information. we know it makes it more dangerous for our soldiers. we know it reduces us to the level of those we're fighting. we know that once you let the sadists in, the whole system collapses into totalitarianism. ask yourself why they are now using the very techniques used on John McCain in the Hanoi Hilton. John McCain made and signed false statements and even attempted suicide.

it doesn't work. period. and it makes us all worse.
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Old 09-29-2008, 08:40 PM   #682
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If you get caught on the battlefield then what were you doing there?


don't know much about guerrilla warfare and occupations, do you.
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Old 09-29-2008, 08:42 PM   #683
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do you know much about Horowitz?
yes, his changed his orientation, political orientation.

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Old 09-29-2008, 08:44 PM   #684
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nevermind.
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Old 09-29-2008, 08:50 PM   #685
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don't know much about guerrilla warfare and occupations, do you.
Petraeus certainly does.
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Old 09-29-2008, 08:50 PM   #686
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do you know much about Horowitz?
Last I knew (I haven't read his articles since university years) he was trying to get accountability for hiring in schools so that it would be more balanced without trying to push liberals completely out either.

I don't know if he has succeeded anywhere. Let's check the net:


He has replies to critics on his Academic freedom campaign so he looks like he's still working on it.

FrontPage Magazine
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Old 09-29-2008, 08:54 PM   #687
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Oh well in that case I'll take your word for it.

Did you hear that it's also well known that students don't have the most objective views on professors they have strong ideological differences with?

Wow, I can over-generalize, too!
I hope you agree that marks should be allocated to knowledge of the material. I certainly don't want courses where you must agree with conservatives only. That would be boring. Any conservatives that push their agenda in classes are hypocrites and should be hung out to dry the same as the left wing ones.
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Old 09-29-2008, 08:55 PM   #688
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Petraeus certainly does.


and ...?

what does this have to do with the fact that torture doesn't work?
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Old 09-29-2008, 08:56 PM   #689
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Last I knew (I haven't read his articles since university years) he was trying to get accountability for hiring in schools so that it would be more balanced without trying to push liberals completely out either.

I don't know if he has succeeded anywhere. Let's check the net:


He has replies to critics on his Academic freedom campaign so he looks like he's still working on it.

FrontPage Magazine


he's a well paid right wing shill.

he has an agenda to promote just like Rush, Coulter, etc.

he's more intellectual than they are, yes, but he's offering the same straw men and working under the same false assumptions and trying to manufacture the same false outrage.
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Old 09-30-2008, 12:21 AM   #690
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and ...?

what does this have to do with the fact that torture doesn't work?
Well then it means you don't think the military got any information out of it then. They said they did but it's very unpopular. Certainly I can say this here because I'm not a politician. If I was I would be forced into that same point to be politically viable and McCain doesn't believe in it due to his experience but I'm trying VERY HARD to look at the point of view of the guy on the battlefield who didn't get killed because of good information. I'm looking at the guy who didn't die because terrorists and supporters were in Guantanamo Bay instead of the field.

The conversational topic I think can't continue because I think that some of the information is of value and you don't and we'll be spinning wheels on an issue that is not up for election. I'm aware a war isn't won or lost on torture but at minimum keep them locked up until the war is over in 2011. I hope the civilian style trials last long enough that it won't be an issue and Afghanistan is mostly running their own government.
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Old 09-30-2008, 12:29 AM   #691
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he's a well paid right wing shill.

he has an agenda to promote just like Rush, Coulter, etc.

he's more intellectual than they are, yes, but he's offering the same straw men and working under the same false assumptions and trying to manufacture the same false outrage.
My experiences are from Canada and what Horowitz says looks very recognizable to me. I need much more convincing that there are just as many liberal bashers in school as conservative bashers in the U.S. These guys often don't even hide their bias and go on power trips. That example I posted before shows a guy that wasn't even fired for Palin bashing. His bias was actually a little worse than what I experienced. At least my teacher tried to hide his bias and didn't target a particular political candidate. He just targeted students with his marks and comments on the assignments he handed back.
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Old 09-30-2008, 02:46 AM   #692
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There is legal representation but it's done through the military so critics want a civilian system. I just don't care about people trying to kill our soldiers on the battlefield. If you get caught on the battlefield then what were you doing there
People don't understand the beauty of the criminal justice system: if they're indisputably holding guilty, evil war criminals at Guantanamo Bay, these would be the easiest convictions ever. If all these guys were indisputably enemy combatants, it should be trivial for courts to prove their guilt.

So....I wonder why the Bush Admin has tried so hard to prevent this?

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Well then it means you don't think the military got any information out of it then. They said they did but it's very unpopular.
That's also their only justification to avoid prosecution as war criminals. If they said they DIDN'T get any useful info, then no one would support them when they try to avoid being prosecuted as war criminals. To wit: the ones who could be prosecuted say their efforts were justified, but other interrogators (like the WW2 Nazi interrogators) without the specter of prosecution say their job never needed it.
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Old 09-30-2008, 05:43 AM   #693
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I just don't care about people trying to kill our soldiers on the battlefield.
This is the assumption I find scary. This implies that every person arrested by the US is guilty without any proof needed, so long as they're a foreigner.
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Old 09-30-2008, 06:41 AM   #694
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Originally Posted by purpleoscar View Post
War costs time effort and money. Informants could also be wrong or have old information but not following up would also be criticized.

I don't know guys how to fight a perfect war. Certainly Petraeus has got a clue on how to in Iraq. Tipoffs on Saddam yielded nothing for a long time until it did. I'm sure it did cost lots of money and manpower.
We're in this mess due to bad intelligence, period.
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Old 09-30-2008, 06:43 AM   #695
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This is the assumption I find scary. This implies that every person arrested by the US is guilty without any proof needed, so long as they're a foreigner.
One thing I've learned from Purple, if you aren't right wing North Americans, you're a bunch of socialists and you are the enemy.
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Old 09-30-2008, 10:26 AM   #696
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This is the assumption I find scary. This implies that every person arrested by the US is guilty without any proof needed, so long as they're a foreigner.
The battlefield. Not just because they are foreigners.
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Old 09-30-2008, 10:28 AM   #697
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The battlefield. Not just because they are foreigners.
Like Maher Arar on the battlefield?
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Old 09-30-2008, 10:34 AM   #698
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He does'nt want to talk about Arar because it disqualifies his one sided arguement.

You should know that Anitram!
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Old 09-30-2008, 10:44 AM   #699
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One thing I've learned from Purple, if you aren't right wing North Americans, you're a bunch of socialists and you are the enemy.
Obama's moral equivalency with Russia and the U.S. regarding Georgia adds fuel to the fire. No wonder Russia wants to give nuclear power to Venezuela. The U.S. is showing weakness in their eyes. Some in the left may have good intentions but it's not helping. Even inviting Ahmadinejad to universities gives him more clout. Terrorists openly express hope for left wing successes in elections like in Spain, even if it requires bombs to nudge the population. There are terrorists that use Democratic party talking points. I hope that Barack will move to the right if he gets in power and stops looking to be popular around the world. In some countries it's not good to be popular.

Let's be honest the left want to increase social programs. Why say you are not of that point of view when the prescriptions by the democratic party are the same as what socialists would recommend? If we elect left wing parties won't they propose more government intervention in the economy? If we keep electing them won't there be more?
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Old 09-30-2008, 10:47 AM   #700
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Obama's moral equivalency with Russia and the U.S. regarding Georgia adds fuel to the fire. No wonder Russia wants to give nuclear power to Venezuela. The U.S. is showing weakness in their eyes. Some in the left may have good intentions but it's not helping. Even inviting Ahmadinejad to universities gives him more clout. Terrorists openly express hope for left wing successes in elections like in Spain, even if it requires bombs to nudge the population. There are terrorists that use Democratic party talking points. I hope that Barack will move to the right if he gets in power and stops looking to be popular around the world. In some countries it's not good to be popular.

Let's be honest the left want to increase social programs. Why say you are not of that point of view when the prescriptions by the democratic party are the same as what socialists would recommend? If we elect left wing parties won't they propose more government intervention in the economy? If we keep electing them won't there be more?
You are delusional
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