The Athiest thread

[Salome]

I missed about 7 posts again,
but I take joy in appearing completely random anyway

 

[NotAnEasyThing]

I am interested in evidence but I havent seen any evidence to prove that a creator exists.

I dont mean to be frustrating. I also have no idea what a "straw man" is. Im unfamiliar with this term. I just googled it and it looks like its a USA term. For the record I was raised in the outback with very little media. I still rarely watch the tv now. I do adore the internet though. So TV, movie references and USA English usually sink on me. Not that I want to stop you from using them. Just so you know where Im coming from.

I dismissed Jesus as a god.

Argggh, seriously this goes back to the kettles boiled argument. Different ways of thinking. Please dont jump to conclusions. I havent actually said a whole lot during this thread as Im enjoying listening to A Wanderer. This is quite possibly my most silent postings.

It's ok beli- I just find it difficult to have a sensible conversation when you sort of argue against something I never said (that is what a straw man is).
BTW I didn't think that term was just an american one, I've heard it heaps in Australia, maybe it's an East Coast thing or something.

I have been making an attempt to explain what evidence there is from a christian perspective and to encourage you to look at the evidence that is there for yourself. It's easy to say " there is no evidence therefore I won't believe it", when you haven't even checked out the sources for these claims (about Jesus being God).

 

[beli]

I missed about 7 posts again,
but I take joy in appearing completely random anyway

I like hearing from you

 

[A_Wanderer]

But those sources are not objective, they are an integral tool of belief - the miracles performed are extraordinary, so either they were an act of God or they were exaggerated/never happened and in the history of the world the latter is the the most likely.

 

[beli]

NotAnEasyThing,

Im not meaning to argue about things you never said. Whats the point in that? LOL . I think we are just two seriously different individuals.

I havent read the bible end to end and back again, no. The bible is a religious text. I prefer objective texts.

Its a shame we cant all meet on some tropical island and discuss this. It would be much easier / less frustrating.

 

[beli]

oops ignore the objective bit. A Wanderer just said that as I typed /swatted flys.

 

[NotAnEasyThing]

But those sources are not objective, they are an integral tool of belief - the miracles performed are extraordinary, so either they were an act of God or they were exaggerated/never happened and in the history of the world the latter is the the most likely.

What eyewitness account is objective- but the long thesis I gave a few posts back about that exact issue was to explain that and to say there were many eyewitnesses, and over the centuries more scrutiny applied to these texts than anything else in history. And just because something is extraordinary is not in itself an arguement that it didn't happen - that reasoning is illogical. You still have the problem of the early believers. They certainly believed it, and they had an immediate way to check the validity of Jesus' claims. Why die for a hoax? Maybe one or two crazy people might do that- but thousands voluntarily go to the grave for no good reason?

 

[NotAnEasyThing]

NotAnEasyThing,

Im not meaning to argue about things you never said. Whats the point in that? LOL . I think we are just two seriously different individuals.

I havent read the bible end to end and back again, no. The bible is a religious text. I prefer objective texts.

Its a shame we cant all meet on some tropical island and discuss this. It would be much easier / less frustrating.

I guess we may be different, but in some ways I think we are very similar too- we both want to discover truth.

BTW, can you give me an example of a text that is objective.

 

[beli]

Why die for a hoax? Maybe one or two crazy people might do that- but thousands voluntarily go to the grave for no good reason?

You think in a different direction to me.

For you it seems to be:

"Why would it be false?"

for me its:

"Prove it is true"

(Apologies if I have "strawed" you with that comment. Tis not my intention. Nor am I intending to put words in your mouth. Just thinking out aloud. )

 

[NotAnEasyThing]

You think in a different direction to me.

For you it seems to be:

"Why would it be false?"

for me its:

"Prove it is true"

(Apologies if I have "strawed" you with that comment. Tis not my intention. Nor am I intending to put words in your mouth. Just thinking out aloud. )

No you most certainly haven't "strawed" me

It has not always been that way. Having investigated these things thoroughly for myself I now ask "how could it be false".

I just reckon that the "prove it true" position that you have is most likely reserved for only a few topics, christianity one of them. For most concepts of this magnitude that you have to engage with because they are out there in the marketplace, you probably take a more sympathetic approach to, looking for the facts for yourself. This is certainly the enquiring mind you have described in previous posts about yourself.

 

[all_i_want]

frankly i dont practice any of the religions and for all i know they could all end up in the bottom of the sea.

however, if there is one thing i believe in, its that there is a god. i dont believe in a heaven or hell, i think we will all end up in the same place.

but really, believing, not in any particular religion, just believing in a force of good gives us the strength and the reason to keep moving and resist all the cruelty and evil we all face in our lifetimes.

 

[NotAnEasyThing]

frankly i dont practice any of the religions and for all i know they could all end up in the bottom of the sea.

however, if there is one thing i believe in, its that there is a god. i dont believe in a heaven or hell, i think we will all end up in the same place.

but really, believing, not in any particular religion, just believing in a force of good gives us the strength and the reason to keep moving and resist all the cruelty and evil we all face in our lifetimes.

Hi all_i_want, nice to have you join in.

But seriously, this seems to me a rather inane response. If you believe there is a god, why bother if you are not going to find out anything about this god. And I am interested in how this ambiguous belief gives you the strength and the reason to keep moving and resist all the cruelty and evil we face in our lifetime.

For instance; if this god is just a god who just "turned the igniton key on" and then abandoned his creation- what comfort is that?

Don't get me wrong, I believe there is a God, just find your approach as lazy as those atheists who just adopt an atheist position as a reaction against annoying Christians they know.

Sorry if that seems a bit harsh- just would appreciate more depth in this thread.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Okay then, is Islam a true faith that follows God?

 

[all_i_want]

ok, so here it is. btw, i apoplogize for everytime i call god a 'he' cause i believe god doesnt necessarily have to be one. anyway, all the religions, id guess, started with some kind of divine intervention. then, over the centuries, they became the religions they are today. all predominantly male, for some reason, and full of 'threats' against the 'non-believers' and the very concept i disagree the most, 'hell'. both in islam and christianity, hell was used by the clergy to bully people into doing things.

lets take hitler for example (he's more or less my fave example to explain this) did he go to hell? more or less every religion would say 'hell, yeah!' but really, what did he do wrong? did he do anything contrary to god's will? who on earth could do something contrary to GOD'S will? i know, freedom of choice, youd say. well, where is the freedom if you know youd do something and not what is prescribed? if its gods will to give its subjects the freedom of choice, it is not his choice to forever damn the souls of the ones who dont make the choice god would like.
'do this, or go to hell' i dont really have much of a choice do i?

thats only one problem i have with religions. dont even get me started on the needy, egomaniac god model they present to us. 'you have kneel before me five times a day' or 'you have to visit church every sunday'. the god i believe is not the kind that constantly 'needs' things from his subjects.

so where is my god? every time you help someone, do something kind towards another being, raise a child or look after your old and slowy fading parents, fall in love, make someone believe that goodness still exists in this world... that high, that ecstacy you get.. now there is god. there is something inherently right about that, that's true. thats tangible.

 

[all_i_want]

also, i think christianity and islam today dont promote love and peace anymore. they promote fear, fear of going to hell, and they promote ignorance and disrespect towards the beliefs of others. if everyone is gonna keep believing them, thats fine. i know i wont be.

 

[swissair135]

I love this thread.

A bunch of atheists who are arguing on a U2 message forum. They are here because they like U2, but did you know that U2 is a christian band spreading a subtle christian message?

Why so much interest in a band that sings about themes you probably dont care for? I certainly respect your right to enjoy U2, I find it ironic that you are arguing atheism on this board.

My advice, Take a hint guys.. from Beautiful day "What you dont know, You can feel it somehow"..

Have faith


Mark

 

[A_Wanderer]

My advice would be think for yourself and be independent.

 

[Irvine511]

I love this thread.

A bunch of atheists who are arguing on a U2 message forum. They are here because they like U2, but did you know that U2 is a christian band spreading a subtle christian message?

Why so much interest in a band that sings about themes you probably dont care for? I certainly respect your right to enjoy U2, I find it ironic that you are arguing atheism on this board.

My advice, Take a hint guys.. from Beautiful day "What you dont know, You can feel it somehow"..

i didn't realize there was an "I believe in God" statement you had to sign before buying a CD or concert ticket.

besides, it's not about lyrics, it's all about drums.

some people are perfectly capable of loving U2's *music* and not giving a crap about bono's lyrics which are more spiritual than Christian, i'd argue, and filled with doubt. U2 choose to believe, and that's fine, but they are hardly prosthelytizing or spreading a Christian message. these are personal journeys of faith, and doubt, and the lyrics are intentionally vague enough for anyone of any stripe of belief or non-belief to find a home inside.

i find it ironic that you'd criticize those who choose to think for themselves and arrive at their own conclusions, atheist being just one of many, and as respectable as any other -- so long as it is arrived at through questioning and intellect and not some passively accepted, rarely reflected upon, inherited belief system. bono questions, bono doubts, bono arrives at more faith than not, but bono knows you may not, and bono wants you to listen anyway and find your own answer.

 

[Irvine511]

btw, i'm an agnostic, and it's U2 that make me question my faith and fall away from what i was taught, believe it or not.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

i didn't realize there was an "I believe in God" statement you had to sign before buying a CD or concert ticket.

besides, it's not about lyrics, it's all about drums.

some people are perfectly capable of loving U2's *music* and not giving a crap about bono's lyrics which are more spiritual than Christian, i'd argue, and filled with doubt. U2 choose to believe, and that's fine, but they are hardly prosthelytizing or spreading a Christian message. these are personal journeys of faith, and doubt, and the lyrics are intentionally vague enough for anyone of any stripe of belief or non-belief to find a home inside.

i find it ironic that you'd criticize those who choose to think for themselves and arrive at their own conclusions, atheist being just one of many, and as respectable as any other -- so long as it is arrived at through questioning and intellect and not some passively accepted, rarely reflected upon, inherited belief system. bono questions, bono doubts, bono arrives at more faith than not, but bono knows you may not, and bono wants you to listen anyway and find your own answer.

.

I believe in a god of some kind, but I'm a more spiritual person-my beliefs come from various religions, I don't really belong to a particular one. And you've basically summed up one of the big reasons why I love this band's music. It's nice to hear people talk about religion without telling me that my beliefs are stupid or wrong or I'm going to hell or something. And it's nice to find others out there who have the same questions regarding religion that I do. They put everything regarding religion in much better words than I can.

Angela

 

[Do Miss America]

I love this thread.

A bunch of atheists who are arguing on a U2 message forum. They are here because they like U2, but did you know that U2 is a christian band spreading a subtle christian message?

Why so much interest in a band that sings about themes you probably dont care for? I certainly respect your right to enjoy U2, I find it ironic that you are arguing atheism on this board.

My advice, Take a hint guys.. from Beautiful day "What you dont know, You can feel it somehow"..

Have faith


Mark

I guess this means I would have to be a drunk, redneck divorcee to like country music.

Or I would have to be a car crash about love to like Ryan Adams.

Oh but I definately would have to be a high rollin pimp who liked my ice around my neck and my Crystal cold to enjoy hip hop music.

Have faith,

Courtney

 

[indra]

I love this thread.

A bunch of atheists who are arguing on a U2 message forum. They are here because they like U2, but did you know that U2 is a christian band spreading a subtle christian message?

Why so much interest in a band that sings about themes you probably dont care for? I certainly respect your right to enjoy U2, I find it ironic that you are arguing atheism on this board.

My advice, Take a hint guys.. from Beautiful day "What you dont know, You can feel it somehow"..

Have faith


Mark

So....you only listen to "Christian" bands? How extraordinarily limiting.

 

[swissair135]

I do think for myself.. thank you .. thanks for the sound advice.

No im not a crazy christian.. Im a democrat Canadian who is liberal as anything. I hate conservative way of mind and REFUSE .. ABSOLUTELY REFUSE to listen to christian bands, or buy into the brand of Evangelism bread by the south.

My best friend, who has posted on this thread, is an atheist. But I am a christian. I am drawn to U2 because they inspire a christian faith in me.

I humbly respect your right to enjoy U2's music and your right to have an opinion.

But It is necessary for me to point out the irony in this thread, whether you like it or not.

Every U2 song has a bible quote or has been directly influenced by the bible. Its a clear message, with some subtle attributes.

So again, its ironic that we are having an atheism rally on this board when U2's music, meaning, and direction has a very deep and clear christian base.

"some people are perfectly capable of loving U2's *music* and not giving a crap about bono's lyrics which are more spiritual than Christian"

-Really? You listen to music and dont bother to understand meaning. Is meaning not the basis of everything we do.. finding meaning? Anyway if you can really do this, than I am very impressed



Mark

 

[NotAnEasyThing]

Wooahh! This thread sure took a sharp detour. One moment we were having an interesting exchange of ideas then suddenly we get all this acrimony. I just want to say as a christian I have been enjoying the frank discussion I've been having with particularly A_W and Beli. I see nothing wrong with there being a thread to discuss atheism on a U2 fan site. I'm sure Bono would enjoy discussing peoples values and beliefs with respect too. It's not so much ironic as it is perfectly fitting considering this is a band that tackles the big issues of life in it's lyircs.

Let's go back to having more worthwhile discussion. No one gets anything out of nit-picking.

 

[indra]

I do think for myself.. thank you .. thanks for the sound advice.

No im not a crazy christian.. Im a democrat Canadian who is liberal as anything. I hate conservative way of mind and REFUSE .. ABSOLUTELY REFUSE to listen to christian bands, or buy into the brand of Evangelism bread by the south.

My best friend, who has posted on this thread, is an atheist. But I am a christian. I am drawn to U2 because they inspire a christian faith in me.

I humbly respect your right to enjoy U2's music and your right to have an opinion.

But It is necessary for me to point out the irony in this thread, whether you like it or not.

Every U2 song has a bible quote or has been directly influenced by the bible. Its a clear message, with some subtle attributes.

So again, its ironic that we are having an atheism rally on this board when U2's music, meaning, and direction has a very deep and clear christian base.

"some people are perfectly capable of loving U2's *music* and not giving a crap about bono's lyrics which are more spiritual than Christian"

-Really? You listen to music and dont bother to understand meaning. Is meaning not the basis of everything we do.. finding meaning? Anyway if you can really do this, than I am very impressed



Mark

Very funny, Mark. Remind me a bit of the "my best friend is black (or gay)" comments. Thanks for the smile.

To be honest, I was shocked at how mainstream to conservative Christian many people on this board are. I can appreciate and understand U2's songs without being sold on what it means to them. They can be as Christian as they want to be without changing my views at all.

You find it ironic that there are atheists here, but you don't find it ironic that you, a self described Christian, would "REFUSE .. ABSOLUTELY REFUSE to listen to christian bands?" hmmm.... strange

 

[beli]

Re U2s lyrics

Most of the time Bonos singing sounds like atmospheric wailing. I cant always understand the words. Not that it matters. Im a fan of Youssou NDour and Clannad and I wouldnt have a clue what they are signing about. I do like their music though.

Secondly, as has been pointed out in the oral sex thread, a lot of U2 songs can be interpreted to be about God or sex. Given the choice, I chose sex

 

[indra]

Re U2s lyrics

Secondly, as has been pointed out in the oral sex thread, a lot of U2 songs can be interpreted to be about God or sex. Given the choice, I chose sex

Me too! Maybe the Atheist Thread should be renamed "The People Who Would Rather Think About Sex Than God" thread.

 

[beli]

Me too! Maybe the Atheist Thread should be renamed "The People Who Would Rather Think About Sex Than God" thread.

We would have to make exceptions though, for people like Salomey who ..... hmm.... hangon..... we will have to ask him which he prefers thinking about

 

[Angela Harlem]

Well isn't this just fucking hilarious.
Agnostics beliefs are inane.
People who like U2 and are athiest are hypocrites.

Fucking hilarious.

And they say Christians are persecuted and offended too often. My arse. Talk a mile long walk in someone else's shoes.

Or 1.6 kms if you're not a yank.

 

[indra]

Or 1.6 kms if you're not a yank.

Actually it's 1.6 kms even for us yanks, we just don't know it.