Should smoking be illegal?

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by ladyfreckles

The fact is that many of the people coming out of these degrees did not know what they wanted to do when they rushed into college. Most (not all, most) went for these degrees because they had no idea of what they wanted to do and were just going with what was expected of them. It's better to have a liberal arts degree than no degree! Right? That's why we have to get one! At least it's something! These people did not have the creativity to bust out and do something unique, were not smart enough to realize they didn't have to go to college and should wait until they knew what they wanted to do first, and they didn't have the talent in a specific field to pursue that field.

There's the occasional exception, but many businesses I know will throw applications with "liberal arts" degrees in the trash because of how unprofessional those graduates can be. We just recently fired someone with a liberal arts degree because they had no clue how to work in a professional environment. They need a college schedule dictating how they spent their time and when they suddenly had to plan things on their own... they couldn't.

The difference is when you encounter someone that wants to study many things, and usually those people will pick a specialty later on in life. The rare person who goes to college to learn. Perhaps I am guilty of generalizing here, so I should mention that I don't immediately judge someone for having that kind of degree. It's just something I see that's so common it's hard to separate the two. But unlike the stuck up people who refuse to consider someone without a degree professional, I will never rule out a person for a job based on their college education (whether they have it, what degree it's in, etc). I take the time to interview them, see their skills, look at what they've accomplished, and decide from there.

well, based on this, i wouldn't hire you. so there's that?

[ladyfreckles]

Originally Posted by Liesje

Erica the flaw is that the post seems to assume that undergrads don't work.

Oh, I'm not assuming that. I worked when I was in school, and so did my fiance (though he just did summer internships since his degree was very, very hard and required serious commitment). I'm just saying that someone with job experience should not be undervalued just because they didn't take a few classes.

High school involvement carries little weight for me personally because 1) it's highschool and 2) most of the stuff people do during that time largely depends on privilege and not actual skill or level of commitment.

In high school I led the chess team through regional tournaments as the captain, actively wrote for the school newspaper, had articles published in the local magazines/papers, founded a technology club where I taught people the basics of computers and how to identify each type of hardware (it's still going to this day), and did part time work as a technician for the school's computer labs. I graduated in 3 years instead of four with half of my classes being independent studies with a single teacher giving me coursework. I was doubled up during the school day (no lunch) and taking online courses as well. Taking the time to organize and lead those clubs was invaluable experience for me, and serves as an example of high school experiences that are relevant. I even had to coordinate bus rental for off-school tournaments and getting teachers to come with us.

At the time I often felt college was useless but the farther away it seems, the more useful it has become. Also I wouldn't take back the cost of tuition to give up the friends I made.

For me my feelings about school depended on the classes I was taking and the teachers I had. I don't regret taking the classes I did take. I will be going back to school in a few years (once they stop considering my dad's income). It's just that I think there is an over value on degrees and education. Many schools have subpar programs which my friends have had to suffer through. I don't think I've ever heard someone regret college when they came from a good school/good program but I have heard a lot of complaints about the average college.

Originally Posted by Irvine511

well, based on this, i wouldn't hire you. so there's that?

That's fine by me, I have no desire to work for someone that judges people for not finishing or going to college.

[Irvine511]

Give me someone smart, hardworking and ambitious who can read, think, and most especially write.

I will mold them into a great asset to my team in a way that I could never with people who decided to specialize when they were 18 and have oodles of technical experience but no ability to think big, different, and bold. Worker bees are great, but that's all you'll ever be unless you can engage on a higher level and make connections and take risks.

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by ladyfreckles

That's fine by me, I have no desire to work for someone that judges people for not finishing or going to college.

But you're judging all people with liberal arts degrees as lazy, unprofessional, scatterbrains

[ladyfreckles]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

Give me someone smart, hardworking and ambitious who can read, think, and most especially write.

I will mold them into a great asset to my team in a way that I could never with people who decided to specialize when they were 18 and have oodles of technical experience but no ability to think big, different, and bold. Worker bees are great, but that's all you'll ever be unless you can engage on a higher level and make connections and take risks.

That's the thing, I don't think it's possible for someone to know what they want to do at 18. There's just too much pressure to go to college RIGHT AWAY and it's created a job market where it's nearly impossible for someone who's 18 and taking a year or two off to get a non-sales position. That's college's #1 flaw. There's such a negative stimuli associated with waiting for a few years when in reality there are tons of people in college who don't know what they're doing, or people who get screwed over financially because they change majors 3 years in.

You don't need college to be a brilliant writer, either (though I sure did love my literature/writing courses).

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

But you're judging all people with liberal arts degrees as lazy, unprofessional, scatterbrains

Not really. It's my wording that makes me come off as abrasive. It was a counter to the notion that someone with a liberal arts degree is more professional than someone without any degree at all. I also NEVER said all, I clearly said some/most and even pointed out that there are exceptions to the rule and that I would never judge someone for having that kind of degree the way people seem to judge those without college degrees.

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by ladyfreckles

That's fine by me, I have no desire to work for someone that judges people for not finishing or going to college.

Good thing, because I don't like to hire people who think that they know everything.

[ladyfreckles]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

Good thing, because I don't like to hire people who think that they know everything.

You have me all figured out, don't you?

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by ladyfreckles

That's the thing, I don't think it's possible for someone to know what they want to do at 18.

For myself, I completely agree, but by saying that taking the time right out of highschool to get job experience instead of schooling experience is better, aren't you implying that those people knew what they wanted to be at 18? (I worded that horribly)

[corianderstem]

No, I don't think smoking should be illegal.

[Jive Turkey]

hahahaha

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by ladyfreckles

You have me all figured out, don't you?

I think you have a limited experience of the world.

[Jive Turkey]

Interesting how a bill about masturbation can turn into a circumcision about schooling

[ladyfreckles]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

For myself, I completely agree, but by saying that taking the time right out of highschool to get job experience instead of schooling experience is better, aren't you implying that those people knew what they wanted to be at 18? (I worded that horribly)

I don't think it's better, oops. That was bad wording on my part (my brain doesn't always transfer well onto paper). I think what's important is that if you aren't sure what you want to do/be, you should try to take time off after high school and work instead (or work and take some classes part time to get a feel for how college works). There are some people that knew what they wanted to be from a young age and went off to college and did just that. But many others keep ending up in unfortunate positions where they have degrees they didn't want and have to go back to school to get another degree or live with what they studied. It's really sad especially considering how college isn't cheap.

Experience is drastically undervalued while college is overvalued. College does many things, but it doesn't guarantee that you'll be a better worker or a more valuable employee. I try to raise awareness of this by using the argument that, if professionalism is something you're concerned about, wouldn't you want someone who spent those years in a professional environment? Not a school? But many people do both. Many do internships. And some people are just naturally gifted at managing time because they're gods or something (or their parents just did an awesome job).

Originally Posted by Irvine511

I think you have a limited experience of the world.

Well of course I do. I'm only twenty and the world is billions of years old.

[Irvine511]

It all makes much more sense.

[ladyfreckles]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

It all makes much more sense.

And there is where I stop you. While older people may be more experienced in general, it doesn't always guarantee that they know more. There are plenty of people twice my age who have no handle on reality and endanger their children with ignorant beliefs. No two people have the same experiences. There is stuff I have seen and lived through that many people go their entire lives without even hearing about.

Age is just a number and ageism/adultism is a ridiculous form of discrimination used to divide people even further. It's not a good idea to operate under the assumption that if someone ages they will soon adopt your ideas and beliefs about life. People grow up and build drastically different viewpoints in their minds based on their experiences. It's funny how you'll meet two very experienced, educated and elderly individuals and they will both have completely different ideas of what is and isn't smart. One of those strange things about life.

I've met sixteen-year-olds that can emotionally and intellectually compete with someone in their sixties. I've met incredibly intelligent middle-aged people and ignorant elderly folk. I've met brilliant elders and ignorant middle aged people. I've met stupid teenagers. I've met idiots in their twenties. I've met geniuses in their twenties. What's regarded as maturity also varies from culture to culture. After meeting people who had lived for 2-3 times as long as me and held the same viewpoints, that's when I started to realize how little age mattered. There are people twice as old as me that attribute my "ignorance" to my age because I disagree with them, but then there are people the same age as them who agree with me and view my thoughts and ideas as wisdom and maturity. It's extremely subjective. Just because my tone is different, or I come off a certain way, does not guarantee that you'll guess my age.

In a social experiment done for a class project during my freshman year my group went onto a forum and found old posts of members to copy. Outside of introducing ourselves and giving our age and interests, we never wrote out the posts ourselves--it was all copy-and-paste. We found that other members would use age as an argument, even when we had copied posts form someone much older than our supposed age. I played the role of a fourteen-year-old boy, and had people constantly talking down to me and saying I was too "young and stupid" to understand anything--despite the fact that the member whose old posts I was copying was 30 years old at the time of posting.

What we found was surprising. When the 30-year-old made those posts, the posts were whole heartedly agreed with. However when the same post came from someone perceived to be half that age, there was a negative reaction. The same idea, viewed as "wisdom" from the thirty-year-old, was "ignorance" when coming out of the mouth of a teenager. It was an interesting project and changed the way I looked at things after that.

tl;dr be careful about judging things based on age

[trojanchick99]

Originally Posted by ladyfreckles

Well of course I do. I'm only twenty and the world is billions of years old.

Having read the past few pages, this is completely unsurprising. I know it sounds condescending, but your lack of maturity has shown in this discussion. I work in higher education, and while there are certainly students who are getting degrees that are more trade related, engineering, business, film, they are also getting a foundation in the humanities. I myself was one of those liberal arts students, one degree in the Classics, and I truly believe even though I do not have a job relating to my major, I use skills I learned every day.

No one here is saying that people who don't get a degree are unintelligent. They are saying, that in general a degree indicates a person has certain skills. These can be major related, or general critical thinking, writing and literacy. This isn't to say a person who doesn't have a college degree doesn't have these skills, but when you have a large number of resumes, it can be an easy way to make cuts.

[Jive Turkey]

like old man strength, life experience should not be underestimated

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by ladyfreckles

And there is where I stop you. While older people may be more experienced in general, it doesn't always guarantee that they know more.

I think Irvine may have been responding more to your views on your accomplishments. I can kind of see where he's coming from (and like trojanchick, that isn't meant to be condescending)

[ladyfreckles]

Originally Posted by trojanchick99

Having read the past few pages, this is completely unsurprising. I know it sounds condescending, but your lack of maturity has shown in this discussion. I work in higher education, and while there are certainly students who are getting degrees that are more trade related, engineering, business, film, they are also getting a foundation in the humanities. I myself was one of those liberal arts students, one degree in the Classics, and I truly believe even though I do not have a job relating to my major, I use skills I learned every day.

You are aware that I'm discussing a very specific type of degree and not an entire type of college, right? I think at some colleges they call it "Generalist/(side focus)". The requirements for this degree are... really light. There are very few, if any, advanced courses and it's mostly made up of a bunch of intro and maybe level two courses. I'm serious. The required course list reads like a high school curriculum with a few more electives.

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

I think Irvine may have been responding more to your views on your accomplishments. I can kind of see where he's coming from (and like trojanchick, that isn't meant to be condescending)

Except it's impossible to know all of my accomplishments when I only list a select few examples. A lot of my high school experiences are things people only got to do in college and are bragged about on resumes as part of the "college experience".

[Dfit00]

The wealthiest people in this world do not have college degrees.

Ever since we grow up we are taught to follow the masses, as if somehow the masses are right in what they are doing, when the reality is that the masses do not know where they are going.

One of the things that a lot of people do is to go to college just for the sake of going and following the masses (what everybody else does). There are a lot of people that just by simply looking at them you can determine that they are not college-based material nor individuals who will obtain anything valuable from college in the long run.

In the end, what people should focus in is to earn money effectively, whether with college or not.