Obama General Discussion, vol. 5

[PhilsFan]

Originally Posted by INDY500

Besides, you still haven't explained how water-boarding (under medical supervision and congressional oversight) is more vile and inhumane than being atomized by a drone missile.

Why would he need to do something absurd like that?

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by INDY500

Or he would prefer to side with those in the military that oppose its repeal. Or do they all hate gays too?

yes, they do. if they still oppose repeal, which has gone seamlessly, as we told you it would, and as has been the experience of the rest of the developed world, it seems fair to say that "hate" is the only remaining explanation for opposition. what else would it be?

And I prefer to side with those that say we gained a great deal of intel from the enhanced interrogation of a few select enemy combatants. Torture is your word for this not mine, if I thought we were truly torturing people I'd be against it also.

what intelligence was gained, and how good that actual intelligence was, are points of debate. reasonable people can disagree. reasonable people cannot disagree that waterboarding is torture.

it simply is. it's widely recognized as torture by numerous international conventions and treaties, including by the US (we've prosecuted as war criminals individuals who have used such practices), and like, say, John McCain, until the "torture memos" where John Yoo suddenly decided it wasn't.

it was used by the Khamer Rouge no less:

Besides, you still haven't explained how water-boarding (under medical supervision and congressional oversight) is more vile and inhumane than being atomized by a drone missile.

there's a legal question here, and a moral question.

the legality of drones vs. torture falls clearly on the side of drones. they are legal. torture is not. no matter what Dick Cheney says.

the morality is something else and i agree much more slippery. i'm not comfortable with the drone program, and i fear the "blowback" that comes whenever you bomb innocent civilians -- however, it's also inarguable that much of AQ has been decimated by these drones, and many view them as the "least worst" option available.

i don't have an answer, but it is something for debate.

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by INDY500

Not really because we'd be 6 months closer to a world with Atomic Mullahs.

Why should we trust the world's most involved state sponsor of terrorism again?

because of the people who actually live in Iran.

i know NRO conservatives think all muslims are the same, but Iran is quite a complex place, and real change is possible.

U2 Dublin in solidarity with people of Iran 25 July 2009 - YouTube

[INDY500]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

because of the people who actually live in Iran.

i know NRO conservatives think all muslims are the same, but Iran is quite a complex place, and real change is possible.

l know all Huffington Post liberals believe Muslims deserve to live under dictators but speaking of "real change" the people of Iran pleaded with our president in 2009 to help topple the Islamic regime. Unfortunately many died in the streets while their pleas fell on deaf ears.

[maycocksean]

Originally Posted by INDY500

l know all Huffington Post liberals believe Muslims deserve to live under dictators

What are you talking about?

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by INDY500

l know all Huffington Post liberals believe Muslims deserve to live under dictators but speaking of "real change" the people of Iran pleaded with our president in 2009 to help topple the Islamic regime. Unfortunately many died in the streets while their pleas fell on deaf ears.

I know you love war when someone else fights and pays for it, but sanctions and diplomacy have proven to be far more effective.

[PhilsFan]

Originally Posted by INDY500

l know all Huffington Post liberals believe Muslims deserve to live under dictators but speaking of "real change" the people of Iran pleaded with our president in 2009 to help topple the Islamic regime. Unfortunately many died in the streets while their pleas fell on deaf ears.

I am sitting at home and actually let out an audible groan upon reading this slop.

[The_Pac_Mule]

Or he would prefer to side with those in the military that oppose its repeal. Or do they all hate gays too?

From a former active duty Marine that was in when DADT was repealed, no one really cared. I certainly didn't give a shit. You're gay? Cool man I'll have your back in a firefight just like you'd have mine.

One of my NCO's was gay and he was one of the greatest leaders I had known, and he was a pretty fucking badass guy all around. I'd follow him into a fight any day and know he'd have my back.

He might not be straight but his bullets flew just as straight as mine.. you can ask the Taliban about that one

And Irvine was right, those who were vocally opposed were usually bigots.

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by The_Pac_Mule

From a former active duty Marine that was in when DADT was repealed, no one really cared. I certainly didn't give a shit. You're gay? Cool man I'll have your back in a firefight just like you'd have mine. One of my NCO's was gay and he was one of the greatest leaders I had known, and he was a pretty fucking badass guy all around. I'd follow him into a fight any day and know he'd have my back. He might not be straight but his bullets flew just as straight as mine.. you can ask the Taliban about that one And Irvine was right, those who were vocally opposed were usually bigots.

This is an awesome post.

And it brings up a great point -- anyone who thinks that active duty military would have a problem serving with a gay person must have an awfully low opinion of the military.

[The_Pac_Mule]

And it brings up a great point -- anyone who thinks that active duty military would have a problem serving with a gay person must have an awfully low opinion of the military.

Not too long ago there was a lot in the military who had a problem with blacks serving. And eventually their place in the military went away. I see this as no different.

[Pearl]

Originally Posted by The_Pac_Mule

From a former active duty Marine that was in when DADT was repealed, no one really cared. I certainly didn't give a shit. You're gay? Cool man I'll have your back in a firefight just like you'd have mine.

One of my NCO's was gay and he was one of the greatest leaders I had known, and he was a pretty fucking badass guy all around. I'd follow him into a fight any day and know he'd have my back.

He might not be straight but his bullets flew just as straight as mine.. you can ask the Taliban about that one

And Irvine was right, those who were vocally opposed were usually bigots.

Your NCO sounds awesome. I salute him.

Some people I know who are against gays in the military say that they really believe the gay troops will be too focused on making a move on the other guys than concentrating on fighting. Pfft. Like gays are so sex crazy they can't focus on anything else. Also, gays have been in the military before, albeit closeted. They fought then so why not now?

Also, when I hear arguments against gays in the military, I think of what Chris Rock said long ago: "If they want to fight, let them fight. 'Cuz I ain't fighting!"

In other words, kudos to them!

[AEON]

Originally Posted by The_Pac_Mule

And Irvine was right, those who were vocally opposed were usually bigots.

While I appreciate most of your post, I really don't think it's fair to reduce fellow humans as "bigots" - people are far more nuanced than that, they have many different reasons for feeling/thinking the way they do. For some, it is religion or upbringing. For others, they just don't "understand" it (this is where I fit. Yes, I understand "what" it is, I don't understand "why" it happens. I always try to find a "purpose" for everything - and I've struggled to find the biological/spiritual/evolutionary purpose of homosexuality). Using the term "bigot" automatically shuts off dialogue and conjurs images of the cast of Deliverance.

Regarding the legality and treatment of homosexuals, we are certainly moving in the right direction. However, there will always be some people that are simply repulsed by homosexuality even if they agree that homosexuals should be treated equally before the law.

Side note - it seems that many forget that DADT came into existence so that homosexuals could start serving in the military. Before DADT, homosexuals were banned outright.

[Pearl]

Originally Posted by AEON

While I appreciate most of your post, I really don't think it's fair to reduce fellow humans as "bigots" - people are far more nuanced than that, they have many different reasons for feeling/thinking the way they do. For some, it is religion or upbringing. For others, they just don't "understand" it (this is where I fit. Yes, I understand "what" it is, I don't understand "why" it happens. I always try to find a "purpose" for everything - and I've struggled to find the biological/spiritual/evolutionary purpose of homosexuality). Using the term "bigot" automatically shuts off dialogue and conjurs images of the cast of Deliverance.

I agree with that, but at the same time, there are people who are directly affected by homophobia or know someone close to them who've been hurt by it. There are also a lot of people who do have a fear and hatred for gay people, and they're not members of Westboro. Too many bad experiences for some does lead to the term "bigot" being used often, even if it shouldn't be. Sometimes suspicions can be valid.

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by AEON

While I appreciate most of your post, I really don't think it's fair to reduce fellow humans as "bigots" - people are far more nuanced than that, they have many different reasons for feeling/thinking the way they do. For some, it is religion or upbringing. For others, they just don't "understand" it (this is where I fit. Yes, I understand "what" it is, I don't understand "why" it happens. I always try to find a "purpose" for everything - and I've struggled to find the biological/spiritual/evolutionary purpose of homosexuality). Using the term "bigot" automatically shuts off dialogue and conjurs images of the cast of Deliverance.

could you suggest another term?

what's important to understand, though, is that people can dislike it all they want, they just can't use the law to discriminate against people for being gay.

to all the rest i simply say that it's your issue to deal with, not mine.

Regarding the legality and treatment of homosexuals, we are certainly moving in the right direction. However, there will always be some people that are simply repulsed by homosexuality even if they agree that homosexuals should be treated equally before the law.

i'm repulsed by cunnilingus.

oh, wait, did i just reduce heterosexuality to a single sex act? because that's what you do without even noticing it, and in the same post where you complained that being called a bigot is dehumanizing.

let it be known that i enthusiastically support the right for any legal consenting adult to engage in cunnilingus.

Side note - it seems that many forget that DADT came into existence so that homosexuals could start serving in the military. Before DADT, homosexuals were banned outright.

DADT was a half measure that became bad policy.

thankfully, most of us have evolved.

[BoMac]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

let it be known that i enthusiastically support the right for any legal consenting adult to engage in cunnilingus.

This man appreciates your views on this important matter:

[AEON]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

i'm repulsed by cunnilingus.

oh, wait, did i just reduce heterosexuality to a single sex act? because that's what you do without even noticing it, and in the same post where you complained that being called a bigot is dehumanizing.

I am generally repulsed by all homosexual affection (holding hands, kissing). But I do agree - it is my issue and not yours.

Originally Posted by Irvine511

let it be known that i enthusiastically support the right for any legal consenting adult to engage in cunnilingus.

Is that a HULK SMASH or just a great response?

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by AEON

Is that a HULK SMASH or just a great response?

If you want to kiss the sky better learn how to kneel.

[BoMac]

Originally Posted by AEON

I am generally repulsed by all homosexual affection (holding hands, kissing).

This sentence repulses me. Disgusting.

[AEON]

Originally Posted by BoMac

This sentence repulses me. Disgusting.

Yeah, just being honest. And so are you. I'm sure we'll survive each other.

[Irvine511]

Do you dislike 2 women kissing as much as 2 men?