What about us atheists? Where do we stand?

[dazzlingamy]

I'm an atheist, or more precisely slightly agnostic in some of my beliefs.

I don't believe in God, Allah, Mohammad, Jesus and anything in between. I know this makes me a minority on this board, and is the reason I don't post a lot in a majority of threads, because religion always seems to come in an ruin a debate.

I enjoy listening and participating in debates, but as soon as theology and spirituality, scriptures and teachings are mentioned, the debate is over. I don't believe in any of, cannot truly understand how anyone can, and to me, using spirituality and scripture to prove a point is like making up facts to support your case. It doesn't work.

But the real reason I post this, in the hope to get some people who feel the same as me, is Where is our place in this current world arena?

I have always opposed the war in Iraq, for many reasons, including taking a flawed idea like democracy and trying to fit it into a country that didn't want it in the first place, but the fact that is was done in God's name. The mighty Crusader, George Bush, spouting scripture and God's name saying things like

'One of the delegates, Nabil Shaath, who was Palestinian foreign minister at the time, said: "President Bush said to all of us: 'I am driven with a mission from God'. God would tell me, 'George go and fight these terrorists in Afghanistan'. And I did. And then God would tell me 'George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq'. And I did."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1586978,00.html

This pisses me off. I unfortuantely am a part of a coalition I don't want to belong to, but not only that, I am represented by three fools, who continually mention Christianity and God in the same sentance as their 'war on terror'

And then from Osama Bin Laden who we know is fighting in the name of Allah for 'all muslims' we get statements like this

War "fundamentally religious"

This clearly indicates the nature of this war. This war is fundamentally religious. The people of the East are Muslims. They sympathized with Muslims against the people of the West, who are the crusaders.

Those who try to cover this crystal clear fact, which the entire world has admitted, are deceiving the Islamic nation.

They are trying to deflect the attention of the Islamic nation from the truth of this conflict.

This fact is proven in the book of God Almighty and in the teachings of our messenger, may God's peace and blessings be upon him.

Under no circumstances should we forget this enmity between us and the infidels. For, the enmity is based on creed.

Muslims must stand together

We must be loyal to the believers and those who believe that there is no God but Allah.

We should also renounce the atheists and infidels. It suffices me to seek God's help against them.

God says: "Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion."

It is a question of faith, not a war against terrorism, as Bush and Blair try to depict it.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/monitoring/media_reports/1636782.stm

So obviously there is no getting through on his line of denfense being an atheist.

My whole problm is this. Innocent people are dying everyday in a war FUELED by hatred between RELIGIOUS parties. Wars are acted out in the name of God, or Allah, terrorists do their duty to be rewarded by Allah, Coalition soldiers hold prayer circles and feel their are 'doing the right thing by God' but for us, the people that believe there is no God, this is a nightmare of epic proportions. A war being fought over a figmant of an imagination, people dying over WORDS in a BOOK that someone wrote hundreds of years ago.

Obviously there are more factors to the war then just religion, such as power and greed and "democracy" but when it boils down to it, its the only answer left.

And this is where I sit. I feel alone and helpless. I want to be able to travel the world, go anywhere I want. I feel psysically ill to think that i am tarred by the same brush as GWB for his religious crusade and views as i am "supposedly" a part of his team.

What do you do when you heart breaks over people dying, and feel there is no just cause at all for it? Where is my voice in amongst the hatred filled shouts of the religious to one another?

 

[80sU2isBest]

Linen and Stalin were both athiests. Stalin butchered more people even than Hitler, who also hated and mocked Christianity.

 

[dazzlingamy]

Thats your comment? That atheists are butchers? Did I once say I hated or mocked Christianity? I don't, I just don't believe in it at all.

But thanks for you comment, you totally just proved my point about debating with a religious person.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Thats your comment? That atheists are butchers? Did I once say I hated or mocked Christianity? I don't, I just don't believe in it at all.

But thanks for you comment, you totally just proved my point about debating with a religious person.

I'm personally getting tired of people starting threads like this and then getting mad when someone replies in a way he/she doesn't like.

In your post, you consistently implied that athiests like yourself love peace and religious people are hateful and love war. So, I provided examples of two of the most barbaric and hateful world leaders of all time who were athiets, to show you that athiesm has its share of hatemongers, also.

Surely you had to know that such a negative thread would elicit an argument. You threw out the bait and then you get upset when someone takes that bait?

 

[dazzlingamy]

Uhm this isn't a negative thread over religious people, this is a thread to say that I am not happy that a war i am unfortuantely a part of is being fought in the name of a 'thing' that I don't believe in and this frustrates me.

And I don't believe all religious people are bloodthirsty murders, anymore then I believe atheists are all peace loving hippies. What my basic point is, are there any atheists out there that feel smothered by religion, and feel like we have no voice, and no where to stand but in the middle and get shot down by both sides.

And i don't believe there was any bait in my first post, I think you can't think straight and immediately think im going for the jugular on religious people.

 

[deep]

I'm an atheist, or more precisely slightly agnostic in some of my beliefs.


I don't believe in any of, cannot truly understand how anyone can, and to me, using spirituality and scripture to prove a point is like making up facts to support your case. It doesn't work.

Where is our place in this current world arena?

I have always opposed the war in Iraq, for many reasons, including taking a flawed idea like democracy and trying to fit it into a country that didn't want it in the first place, but the fact that is was done in God's name.

'One of the delegates, Nabil Shaath, who was Palestinian foreign minister at the time, said: "President Bush said to all of us: 'I am driven with a mission from God'. God would tell me, 'George go and fight these terrorists in Afghanistan'. And I did. And then God would tell me 'George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq'. And I did."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1586978,00.html

This pisses me off. I unfortuantely am a part of a coalition I don't want to belong to, but not only that, I am represented by three fools, who continually mention Christianity and God in the same sentance as their 'war on terror'

And then from Osama Bin Laden who we know is fighting in the name of Allah for 'all muslims' we get statements like this

War "fundamentally religious"

This clearly indicates the nature of this war. This war is fundamentally religious. The people of the East are Muslims. They sympathized with Muslims against the people of the West, who are the crusaders.

Those who try to cover this crystal clear fact, which the entire world has admitted, are deceiving the Islamic nation.

They are trying to deflect the attention of the Islamic nation from the truth of this conflict.

This fact is proven in the book of God Almighty and in the teachings of our messenger, may God's peace and blessings be upon him.

Under no circumstances should we forget this enmity between us and the infidels. For, the enmity is based on creed.

Muslims must stand together

We must be loyal to the believers and those who believe that there is no God but Allah.

We should also renounce the atheists and infidels. It suffices me to seek God's help against them.

God says: "Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion."

It is a question of faith, not a war against terrorism, as Bush and Blair try to depict it.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/monitoring/media_reports/1636782.stm

So obviously there is no getting through on his line of denfense being an atheist.

My whole problm is this. Innocent people are dying everyday in a war FUELED by hatred between RELIGIOUS parties. Wars are acted out in the name of God, or Allah, terrorists do their duty to be rewarded by Allah, Coalition soldiers hold prayer circles and feel their are 'doing the right thing by God' but for us, the people that believe there is no God, this is a nightmare of epic proportions.

A war being fought over a figmant of an imagination, people dying over WORDS in a BOOK that someone wrote hundreds of years ago.

Obviously there are more factors to the war then just religion, such as power and greed and "democracy" but when it boils down to it, its the only answer left.

Where is our place in this current world arena?


agnostics, that have no other agenda, than what is reasonable and right ?

their place should be at the front of the line, because they are right, it is that simple

and the truth gets an emotional, irrational reaction from both extremes, that are hell bent to accomplish their unGodly objectives

 

[80sU2isBest]

And i don't believe there was any bait in my first post, I think you can't think straight and immediately think im going for the jugular on religious people.

I can't think straight? Wow, did I personally insult you? No, I didn't.

Your post was incindiary, and I don't see how you can even claim that it wasn't.

Did you really not expect people of faith to be upset when you wrote the following:

"A war being fought over a figmant of an imagination, people dying over WORDS in a BOOK that someone wrote hundreds of years ago."

and

"using spirituality and scripture to prove a point is like making up facts to support your case."

and

"Where is my voice in amongst the hatred filled shouts of the religious to one another?"

 

[dazzlingamy]

Well no I don't think they should be upset about it, because I truly believe that religion is a figmant of imagination in people because they don't want to address their own mortality and the fact that when you die, you're dead and there is no "heaven" waiting for you.

And hatred filled shouts of the religious are exactly that, the footage of terrorists using the 'praise allah' the condemnation of preachers and TV evangelists on my television preaching about the 'right' way and the only way, and how muslims are wrong and vice versa. IF its not hatred filled, then what is it?

And apologies if you think I was attacking you personally, I just meant that ovbiously you are blinded by faith and therefore cannot have a straight arguement, as you have shown but getting your back up over my opinions.

 

[shart1780]

Yes, evangelists preach because they're hate filled.

Somehow I don't buy it.

 

[80sU2isBest]

And apologies if you think I was attacking you personally, I just meant that ovbiously you are blinded by faith and therefore cannot have a straight arguement, as you have shown but getting your back up over my opinions.

I am not blinded by faith. I have been a Christianity for 27 years, and have had many times that I have questioned my faith. My faith is not based on blindly following. I have reasearched and studied.

If you can't see that the words you used that I quoted are incindiary, I think you are the one who is blinded in this case. Note that I said "in this case".

 

[BonosSaint]

I think you will find plenty of agnostics and religious people on this board who think that neither side speaks for God or that God is even a factor in any of this.

I can see why you might feel outnumbered here. I also think that you have more people who who at least in some ways agree with you than you think. If you break it down, I think you will find that the views of individual posters is more diverse than the number of religious posts may lead you to believe.

 

[HeartlandGirl]

Hi Amy,

Even as someone who believes in God, I didn't find your post incendiary or offensive. I understand your frustrations with watching acts of destruction, violence, and hatred being carried out in the name of God. I definitely think there are a lot more people out there who sympathize and feel the same way--that they are being represented as members of a 'team' they'd rather not be a part of. I know that I don't speak up about it more often because I feel it's a bit like wrestling with a pig when it comes to arguing with many Christians in this country about the war--the pig enjoys it and you just get covered in sh*t.

But know that not all who believe in God are offended by how you feel. Maybe those who believe in God should look at how their Lord's name is being used to carry out political acts and justify acts of violence, and then decide what's really offensive.

 

[trevster2k]

Athiest here. I don't believe in any higher being and feel religion's history was humanity's way of dealing with the unknowns of the time. Which is why the world is riddled with so many different deities, many now extinct. Also, it ended up being a great method of controlling populations by implying horrible punishments if the "rules" weren't followed. After all, who wants to spend eternity in hell or come back in your next life as pig.

I do think religion has a strong place in society as a powerful motivator and comforter for many people in their lives. During times of stress and distress, religion is used to get people through different events in life, both positive and negative. Fine by me, whatever helps you is a good thing by me. Prayer and meditation are extremely beneficial to the mind and body but I don't think it has anything to do with a higher being.

I don't like the use of religion by fanatics who aren't necessarily extremists like a Bin Laden or the Ayatollah. I agree that the constant reference to religion in political speeches by today's leaders is not a positive trait. These comments can be offensive to many no matter what their religion. Whether you be a Christian or Muslim persay, no one wants a world leader spouting off on how a higher power told him, this was the way. I like to hear decisions based on logic, information and facts, not because a voice told you so.

I agree with your point that anyone who doesn't believe in a deity is considered in a negative light by believers and has no voice. I figure there are about 10-15 % of the population who are agnostic or athiest. It's almost like a skeleton in your closet, since I find people want to save me or invite me to a function when they find out. Thanks but no thanks. This behaviour just frustrates me more. Considering the state of our planet, I don't see how being a believer necessarily makes you a better person especially the majority of the planet believes in religion. Not believing doesn't necessarily make you a better person either but I feel it does allow for a more objective view of events and less emotional reactions.

I don't think labelling yourself a believer means you have the values of a Christian or Muslim or Hindu. The surveys conducted by polling companies have a box which people check. Believing is one thing, embracing the values and conducting one's life on those values is another. And if you look at how most people treat one another around the world, most aren't doing a very good job of being good people. We aren't necessarily killing our neighbours but we aren't loving them either.

 

[VintagePunk]

My beliefs are essentially the same as yours, Trevster, although I consider myself more of an agnostic.

I think that athiests/agnostics are often perceived as evil beings, but that's simply not true. I try to live by my own moral compass, try to be a good person, treat others fairly, and to contribute positively to the world. Ultimately, I do this because it makes life more pleasant, not because of the dangled carrot of an afterlife telling me I have to. Like religious people, sometimes I fail, but it's something I continuously strive toward.

Something that's been puzzling me about recent discussions here regarding religion/Christianity - the claim has been made that no one can truly "get" the words in the bible unless they're believers, and they already have faith. Following this logic, it's impossible to look at it objectively, because believers have an inherent bias. Seems like a circular argument for religion, to me.

 

[WildHoneyAlways]

Surely you had to know that such a negative thread would elicit an argument. You threw out the bait and then you get upset when someone takes that bait?

Just because someone doesn't believe what you do doesn't make it a negative thread.


Anyway, I, too, am a "non-believer."
Just to be clear, I am neither amoral or a mass murderer as some on this board believe atheists to be.

Trevster, I could have written your first paragraph.

 

[vaz02]

I'm so proud to be a atheist, it means I don't believe the tooth or Santa too.

I'm spiritual but have always been dead against religion in any sort. I believe in the cosmos and ghosts. I don't believe in karma, but i do respect nature and I kind of believe in the phrase mother nature.

I believe religion is the evil of evil and is the worst possible excuse for someone's actions. Come on , everyone claims to do everything in their gods name , surely that just makes ya think if there really is one lol.

I respect guys like Lenin and Stalin in the way they gained control without using religion but using fear. Centuries and thousands of years earlier people used god and religion as a method of law and order but these guys used brute force and didn't pin it on a god or summit kind of respect them for that.


In a ideal world everyone could believe what they like but as the world stands and has done since the dawn of time people have had their wires crossed and has caused create pain and suffering which is a reason I don't believe in any religions.

On the war in Iraq i believe it was the right thing to do, Saddam was a evil man and over throwing him was the best thing to do.


And all these stories about jesus and the bread and fish is like
how old are you 5 ?

p.s if all atheists are mass murders on this board does that make all you god fearing guys and dolls terroists ?

 

[Shag On A Rock]

I'm an atheist and religious.

Buddhist here. Amy if you want my opinion please email me at: belilindt (at) gmail (dot) com.

I don't often post in FYM as I don't loike it.

 

[vaz02]

I'm an atheist and religious.

Buddhist here. Amy if you want my opinion please email me at: belilindt (at) gmail (dot) com.

I don't often post in FYM as I don't loike it.

i dont understand buddism at all , could u sum it up for me please lol.

i need educating.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Atheist and anti-theist here.

 

[verte76]

Even though I'm a practicing Catholic I can see why many people are fed up with religion. I grew up in an austere Methodist environment, and our church was full of Ku Klux Klansmen. This was a pretty disgusting state of affairs, to put it mildly. I became an agnostic and stayed one for years. I don't feel that people who belong to my church are any more moral than alot of atheists and agnostics. I had a conversion experience and was confirmed a Catholic on an Easter Vigil. But I feel like I in some way have something in common with many agnostics in particular.

 

[shart1780]

Just to be clear, I am neither amoral or a mass murderer as some on this board believe atheists to be.

I don't know where you came up with that.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Just because someone doesn't believe what you do doesn't make it a negative thread.

You're right.

What makes it a negative, incindiary post is using the term "figment of imagination" to describe God, and saying that using scripture in support of an argument is akin to "making things up", and using a phrase like the "hatred filled shouts of the religious". Those are aggressive and attacking words. No one should be surprised when button-pushing words actually push someone's buttons.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Figment of the imagination may be out of turn, imaginary friend may be a better choice or even dear leader ~ I fancy God would share a bit in common with earthly tyrants.

Scripture is using the thoughts and words of man to justify the world as it is. It is completely valid to answer the believer with mockery and an absence of respect for their ideas, it may be agressive and attacking but it the nature of discourse and it is the only way to elucidate what they truly think.

I stand that religion is the simple way for people to escape the conclusion that when we die our self ceases to be, that fear of death and the unknown has kept this lie going all through human history and that the result of this lie is the resignation and nihilism of the religious fanatic.

 

[A_Wanderer]

I'm personally getting tired of people starting threads like this and then getting mad when someone replies in a way he/she doesn't like.

In your post, you consistently implied that athiests like yourself love peace and religious people are hateful and love war. So, I provided examples of two of the most barbaric and hateful world leaders of all time who were athiets, to show you that athiesm has its share of hatemongers, also.

Surely you had to know that such a negative thread would elicit an argument. You threw out the bait and then you get upset when someone takes that bait?

Hitler and Stalin weren't killing for atheism, the same can't be said of Torquemada or Mohammed, their deeds and their beliefs.

 

[dazzlingamy]

Thank you all for you comments. I do feel slightly relieved that there are other people like me out here in Free Your Mind as it sometimes can feel as if its "Free Your Mind...to God" on here.

The funny thing is, I like being agnostic. I like that i'm not tied to a religion and while religious people don't offend me when they start spouting their "scripture" i do get offended when people think that i am missing out, or something is wrong with me to not believe in God. I mean, how much easier is it to not believe? And when you see supposedly religious people living their lives full of 'sin' you think, well if a devout religious person can't even abide by their religions laws, what does that say about it in the first place?

You're right.

What makes it a negative, incindiary post is using the term "figment of imagination" to describe God, and saying that using scripture in support of an argument is akin to "making things up", and using a phrase like the "hatred filled shouts of the religious". Those are aggressive and attacking words. No one should be surprised when button-pushing words actually push someone's buttons.

Ok you obviously arn't understand my message so I'll break it down for you.

Religion is about faith isn't it? To my knowledge God hasn't come down to earth this year and say 'hey im the real deal, follow me!' has he? So you believe in him through faith, which could be said is your imagination. Religious people believe he speaks to them, or sends them signs etc. How many of them would scoff at someone who said the trees were talking to them, or a traffic light was sending them signs? You'd call these people mentally ill and put them on medication. Yet when religious people talk about God, who has never shown anything to anyone in their lifetime, we have to believe it? And don't use the whole 'the world is god' excuse, cause i believe evolution and science has explained all that. So thats why i call it a figment of an imagination, because you see things that you believe are sent form God and turn that into truth....hence using your imagination to believe simple things are more then that. Thats what I see.

Scripture is from a book written by some guys about someone who they thought was divine. It wasn't written by God its self, so its just like a non fiction book about history. Yet you use those words like absolute gospel, and half the time twist the words around to match your point. As i don't believe in God, I obviously don't believe the Bible is 'his words' and therefore when people start spouting 'Luke this' 'Corrinthians that' its like saying 56% of people make up shit to force their point on other people. It can't be a fact when one side doesn't believe any of the words. Can you see that?

And as for hatred filled words. Do you believe that anyone who doesn't believe in God will go to hell? But what if they said the same thing to you. That you're going to "hell" because you believe in a Christian god. What would you feel then? Pity, resentment? Would you think there wrong (just like they do you?) This can then turn into a match of words, each more vicious then the last as you both fight to the dying breath that you are both right. And tell me, you've never see a TV evangelist getting all hepped up about the deviants in society? I can see it even if you can't.

So there is a bit more of an explanation for you, as i dont believe they were attacing remarks, but rather something that I believe and see before me.
If i said all religious people are nutters then you could say that, but I don't believe that, I believe people can have their own views, as long as they don't try to shove it and make othe rpeople believe what they do.

 

[Angela Harlem]

Great posts, Amy. I see what you're saying and I agree. Many do.

 

[shart1780]

I honestly don't really care if anyone here attacks my beliefs simply because I'm confident in my faith.

I don't understand why so many people take offense. It's almost as if they feel the need to prove the worth of their views to others.

 

[Angela Harlem]

It is as though some need to prove the worth of their views. And you know why that is, shart? 'Cause a favourite angle around these parts is to imply and even outright argue that you cannot have a moral compass without faith. And you know what? Some people reckon an unseeable God is voodoo. So yeah, pardon them for being on the defensive. And you want to know something else for nothing? I love the 'best form of defence is attack' which is so prevalent on here.

 

[AussieU2fanman]

I concur amy. I'm only 19 years old, and I was a full fervent/devout Christian for the first 14 years of my life and I turned into an Athiest with not an inch of belief (perhaps deism is becoming more appealing to me recently) in me from then on. My Mum and my Catholic school inundated me with meaningless, factually devoid dogma (I didn't see it as that back then) into me since birth which I happily accepted and never questioned. However, after about 14, I started to be able to think and analyse critically everything about my 'faith,' and everything about Catholicism didnt syncronise with my scientific mind. It is then I started reading about Christianity and to a lesser extent, the other main religions, from a factual perspective and understood how much corruption and lies have been spread throughout the history of modern religion. And my doubt is perpetuated by the understanding of human nature and how it is naturally flawed.
So it is through education that I became an Athiest, and I'm sure this is how many of your athiestic ways came about. If you possess the ability to have a TRUELY open mind and take into account various facts from a variety of sources, I can't see how anyone can be religious. I've found, that when I confront religious people with legitimate facts that should shake the foundations of their faith (like it did to me), they just completely negate them and shut them out or tell me to 'shutup'. I have discovered that it is very hard for a religious mind to be rational and logical, when faced with doubt. But the athiests mind is structured quite differently, it is open, and more susceptible to other points of views.
So yes in conclusion, my journey of athiesm can be summed up with a Bono quote 'The more you know, the Less you believe.'
And in answer to your topic question. We have no standing in the world today. Even in our modern world with science reducing the need for religious explanation and God, there is still an abundance of believers that don't seem to be swayed no matter what you tell them. The vast majority of the world will look down on us because the need for God, to them, is paramount to human nature.....to challenge that notion (like we do), is something almost subhuman.

 

[Kieran McConville]

Yeah, I am with the thread starter, amy.

I find hard core anti-theism to be nearly as offensive as hardcore mobilised religiosity, but I also understand that is in no way what amy was promoting.

Myself, I'd have to say I'm someone who veers somewhere between faith and agnosticism, just based on the last few decades of my life. I haven't had any religious awakenings yet.

angela harlem, I love your new 'in your face' persona - keep it up.