MERGED==> French Riots + a French Intifada?

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[Q]Paris Burning: How Empires End
by Patrick J. Buchanan
Posted Nov 7, 2005

The Romans conquered the barbarians—and the barbarians conquered Rome.

So it goes with empires. And comes now the penultimate chapter in the history of the empires of the West.

This is the larger meaning of the ritual murder of Theo Van Gogh in Holland, the subway bombings in London, the train bombings in Madrid, the Paris riots spreading across France. The perpetrators of these crimes in the capitals of Europe are the children of immigrants who were once the colonial subjects of the European empires.

At this writing, the riots are entering their 12th night and have spread to Rouen, Lille, Marseille, Toulouse, Dijon, Bordeaux, Strasbourg, Cannes, Nice. Thousands of cars and buses have been torched and several nursery schools fire-bombed. One fleeing and terrified woman was doused with gasoline and set ablaze.

The rioters are of Arab and African descent, and Muslim. While almost all are French citizens, they are not part of the French people. For never have they been assimilated into French culture or society. And some wish to remain who and what they are. They live in France but are not French.
The rampage began October 27 when two Arab youths, fleeing what they mistakenly thought was a police pursuit, leapt onto power lines and were electrocuted. The two deaths ignited the riots.

Interior Minister Nicholas Sarkozy, a candidate to succeed President Chirac, is said to have infuriated and inflamed the rioters. Before the rampage began, he promised “war without mercy” on crime in the teeming suburbs where unemployment runs at 20% and income is 40% below the national average. He has denounced the rioters as “scum” and “rabble.”

Like the urban riots in America in the 1960s, which the Kerner Commission blamed on “white racism,” Paris’s riots are being blamed on France’s failure to bring Islamic immigrants into the social and economic mainstream of the nation. Solutions being offered range from voting rights for non-citizens to affirmative action in hiring for the children of Third World immigrants.

To understand why this is unlikely to solve France’s crisis, consider how America succeeded, and often failed, in solving her own racial crisis.
While, as late as the 1950s, black Americans were not integrated fully into our economy or society, they had been assimilated into American culture.

They worshipped the same God, spoke the same language, had endured the same Depression and war, listened to the same music and radio, watched the same TV shows, laughed at the same comedians, went to the same movies, ate the same foods, read the same books, magazines and newspapers, and went to schools where, even when they were segregated, they learned the same history.

We were divided, but we were also one nation and one people. Black folks were as American as apple pie, having lived in our common land longer than almost every other ethnic group save Native Americans. And America had a history of having assimilated immigrants in the tens of millions from Europe.

But no European nation has ever assimilated a large body of immigrant peoples, let alone people of color. Moreover, the African and Islamic peoples pouring into Europe—there are 20 million there now—are, unlike black Americans, strangers in a new land, and millions wish to remain proud Algerians, Muslims, Moroccans.

These newcomers worship a different God and practice a faith historically hostile to Christianity, a traditionalist faith that is rising again and recoils violently from a secular culture saturated in sex.

Severed from the civilization and cultures of their parents, these Arab and Muslim youth may hold French citizenship and carry French passports, but they are no more French than Americans who live in Paris are French. Searching for a community to which they can truly belong, they gravitate to mosques where the imams, many themselves immigrants, teach and preach that the West is not their true home, but a civilization alien to their values and historically hostile to their nations and Islam.

The soaring Muslim population is a Fifth Column inside Europe.

Nevertheless, their numbers must grow. For not only do they have a higher birth rate than the native-born Europeans, no European nation, save Moslem Albania, has a birth rate (2.1 births per woman) that will enable it to endure for many more generations. The West is aging, shrinking, and dying.

Yet, to keep Europe’s economy growing and taxes coming in to fund the health and pension programs of Europe’s rising numbers of retired and elderly, Europe needs scores of millions of new workers. And Europe can only find them in the Third World.

Nor should Americans take comfort in France’s distress. By 2050, there will be 100 million Hispanics in the United States, half of them of Mexican ancestry, heavily concentrated in a Southwest most Mexicans still believe by right belongs to them.

Colonization of the mother countries by subject peoples is the last chapter in the history of empires—and the next chapter in the history of the West—that is now coming to a close.

Mr. Buchanan is a nationally syndicated columnist and author of
[/Q]

Does he make sense on this issue?
 
I think this is much more a social problem than a religious one, and in line of that, I think the author misses the target by mentioning the riots in the same breath as bombings and the Van Gogh murder. In fact the only religious note I have heard is the fatwa that's been issued by (I think) one of the largest Muslim groups in France against the riots.

On the issue on 'integration' (whatever that may be), at least one Dutch commitee researched the integration issue in the Netherlands and concluded that the bulk of the immigrants and their descents were suprisingly well integrated without practically any help from the government and in a time in which the issue of immigration was barely on the public radar. The problem seems to be mostly the youth who are torn between the traditional values in their home and the liberal public life and who are often an easy target for radicalisation. If we manage to get a grip on that, I'm pretty sure 95% (and yes, this is an arbitrary number :p) of the problems can be solved.
 
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financeguy said:


'Abject segregated poverty' - I don't agree Tarvark, they are financially better off in France than they would be in their home countries. I do think that A_Wanderer might have a point in regard to France's excessive social welfare provisioning.

The Muslims in France, as in other European countries, should make greater efforts to integrate. Might not be PC to say it, but there you go.

There is a difference between a country with 40% unemplyment sitting and watching the rich grow and prosper, then a country were poverty is closer to the norm.

Assimilation is not as easy as you think especailly with such a relgion as Islam. Plus in reading BBC today it seems many seem to harbor the thoughts and in some cases evidence that there is much open racism and opposition to them being there. Its hard to fight agianst a tide like that.
 
MissMaCo said:
Indeed, an old man was killed. He was attacked by ONE guy, and it wasn't during a riot. They were neighbours, and the young man attacked the old man after they quarrelled about a bin or something.

:|

Really? Wow, our reports differ. In our national news, they showed the wife of the guy, and she blamed Sarkozy and the police for her husband´s death.
 
DrTeeth said:
I think this is much more a social problem than a religious one, and in line of that, I think the author misses the target by mentioning the riots in the same breath as bombings and the Van Gogh murder.

True.

Equating the protestors with terrorists - another nice detail in media policy. Well what can you expect of someone called Buchanan..

This is a social problem of integration, not a religious one.
 
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Sherry Darling said:
No, indeed. But you usually can reason with people before they riot. We ignore these people until this is all they have left


Very true.

The French government wouldnt have given a shit for the immigrants for another twenty years.

Sad to see, but reality is that in the 21st century peaceful protests will not have any effect. 100,000s of people on the streets who protested against the war didn´t have an effect. Same when 100,000 go on the streets to advocate social justice.

It seems that peaceful protest time is over. Our so-called democratic leaders, who should represent their country, will not react if there is no violence. That´s part of the strategy. When there are riots, use police force to crash them. When the riots get heavy, we have a problem. Well, not a big one, mind you.. Sarkozy could authorize the police to shoot a few protestors down. Has already happened in other demos, might also happen here.

I am so much for peaceful protest that it saddens me deeply to get another proof its over.

The world has changed. To be in the front line of the battle is hard.

No one notices white flags anymore. Instead, people who initiate peaceful protest, are booed, "accused" of being hippies, of being naive, either ridiculed or completely ignored. Violence will get bad press, but ensures media attention.

As long as politicians brush off peaceful protests because they don´t give a shit and are not affected by them , what is the alternative for the protestors in order to force them to react?
 
whenhiphopdrovethebigcars said:
For those who speak french, there are interesting blogs at http://bouna93.skyblog.com/index.html and http://banlieue93.skyblog.com/ (see the comments)

Lots of blogs were shut down. At the ones running, you will find everything from criticism against the protesters, criticism against the police, and about setting cars on fire and fucking the justice and the police (nlp as in "nique la police")

also a flic by Reuters can be found at http://www.lemonde.fr/web/vi/0,47-0@2-3226,54-705645,0.html

Merci, whenhiphopdrovethebigcars

It's impressive reading words from a person that is there and know the people involved in this chaos.
The pages about the two young boys dead ... :sad: ù

Hope a solution could be find, even if I realize that it's not easy and the problem seems to be enormous.

I am afraid more or less the same will happen here in Italy, too, and soon.
We've been already experimenting troubles with the Muslim community and I was shocked when I heard the comments Italian have for migrants... things that sometimes make me feel ashame of being Italian...
 
lady luck said:

I was shocked when I heard the comments Italian have for migrants... things that sometimes make me feel ashame of being Italian...

Yeah, racism is also going strong in Italy. I realized that in Milan a couple of years ago.. however, I think my country still beats y´all in terms of racism and xenophobia. Where´s Bossi at with the Lega, by the way? Always disliked this guy..

I´m wating for Marie´s next comments/ update. It´s so interesting to hear about the situation in France... I hope no one will get hurt anymore. Sarkozy should resign in order to avoid even more violence.
 
whenhiphopdrovethebigcars said:
Sarkozy should resign in order to avoid even more violence.


I entirely disagree. For Sarkozy to resign would mean a surrender to thuggery. He is probably the most talented French politician of his generation and certainly preferable to that pompous idiot Chirac.
 
financeguy said:



I entirely disagree. For Sarkozy to resign would mean a surrender to thuggery. He is probably the most talented French politician of his generation and certainly preferable to that pompous idiot Chirac.

I disagree. I will not go into details about Sarkozy´s personality. When riots like this break out, however, and an interior minister is incapable of controlling them, of taking away some tension, but fuels the fire with heated remarks, its time for him to go.

He will not resign, that´s the problem. Politicians hold on to their priviledges.

WHATS HAPPENING IS A SHAME FOR THE FRENCH GOVERNMENT.

You see, my own country, Austria, didn´t have the style I´m talking about. Our interior minister, Löschnak, did not resign after an immigrant was killed by police.

Whatever one thinks of Sarkozy personally, this man should resign because he is the ultimate responsible. An interior minister that lets the riots explode instead of extinguishing the fire, has no right and no democratic legitimation in a modern western government.
 
Irvine511 said:
had heard that riots are spreading into Brussels?

I think a handful of cars were torched in Brussels and Berlin. Sounds like a rather unsuccessful attempt to spread the riots by a few people.
 
I dont know about the situation in Belgium. I heard that too; there were some cars burning in Berlin yesterday. I hope and think that´s more in the directon of some isolated singular action.
 
lady luck said:



We've been already experimenting troubles with the Muslim community and I was shocked when I heard the comments Italian have for migrants... things that sometimes make me feel ashame of being Italian...




Are you referring to the closing of the Muslim School in Milan?
 
whenhiphopdrovethebigcars said:


Yeah, racism is also going strong in Italy. I realized that in Milan a couple of years ago.. however, I think my country still beats y´all in terms of racism and xenophobia. Where´s Bossi at with the Lega, by the way? Always disliked this guy..



I must say that it´s unfortunately true. Figure it out, many in the north of Italy can´t even stand the southern italians...............
We have big troubles under this aspect, in Italy an obscure racism is rising on and on, and it hurts maybe even more than clear racism...............this is painful.
But the problem is that this is happening in many other nations, too. I never would have thought that racism could arrive today, 2006 (f.cking 2006!!!), at a so high degree..................


Bossi looks like quiet sleepy now, he had a heart attack and almost died, but he´s still there, although he´s no more a big problem. Oh, I remember certain filthy speeches of him..........:yuck:

Who scare might be his collaborators now, as long as they stay at the government..................but they will soon lose
 
a French Intifada?

so far, it appears as if most media outlets are portraying the riots across France as a reaction to feelings of outsiderness, disillusionment, and disengagement from the state. however, some writers disagree, and post the following:

[q]The disturbances are thus being portrayed as race riots caused by official discrimination and insensitivity. But this is a gross misreading of the situation. It is far more profound and intractable. What we are seeing is, in effect, a French intifada: an uprising by French Muslims against the state.

When the police tried to take back the streets, they were driven out with the demand that they leave what the protesters called the ‘occupied territories’. And far from the claim that the disturbances have been caused by French policy of segregating Muslims into ghettoes, this is a war being waged for separate development.

Some Muslims have even called for the introduction of the ancient Ottoman ‘millet’ system of autonomous development for different communities.

The director of the Great Mosque of Paris, Dalil Boubakeur, has previously suggested that France should be regarded as a ‘house of covenant’, by which he appears to mean that France should enter into an agreement with its Muslims to grant them autonomy within the state.

http://www.melaniephillips.com/articles/archives/001475.html

[/q]
 
Dread has commented on the level of organization seen by the rioting groups. This certainly adds a dimension that does not fit the standard "violence stems from poverty" model.
 
An intifada - I hope not. :|

It is disconcerting that it seems to have affected geographically diverse locations. When race riots have occured in Britain, they have usually been restricted to specific locales.
 
I think this could in fact turn into an intifadah of some sort. Unfortunately, people are going to allign themselves with people who they feel understands them. Radicalisation is easiest amongs people who feel mistreated or misunderstood. Let's hope everyone can come to their senses before this gets worse.

Why not just post this in the other thread btw? :shrug:
 
financeguy said:
It is disconcerting that it seems to have affected geographically diverse locations. When race riots have occured in Britain, they have usually been restricted to specific locales.

This is the most worrying aspect of the troubles thus far for me. I wonder how much of it is just spontaneous imitation or if there is a degree of organisation behind it all.

The most recent riots in the UK were confined to a relatively small area in Birmingham and things have seemed to calm down there. Although that was more a matter of black/asian animosity toward each other so there are only limited comparisons to make with what's happening in France.
 
Villepin has imposed the curfew law:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4416728.stm

The move, announced by interior minister Nicolas Sarkozy, allows local authorities to impose curfews and lets police perform raids without warrants.
--------------------------------------------------
Curfew powers were invoked under a 1955 law and it is the first time it has been implemented in mainland France.

And he's looking into improving social conditions:

Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin later outlined to MPs an accompanying programme to improve social conditions.

Measures include a jobs programme and funding for teaching in deprived areas.

An agency will be set up with the aim of combating racial discrimination.




I think its going to take a lot more than providing jobs and teaching to ease any tensions. Distrust would remain for a very long time, even if things do improve for the immigrant communities.
 
It's sad when it apparently takes riots of this scale to get governments to recognize the needs of minorities. :tsk:
 
speaking of racism , anybody saw what happened near red square in Moscow , russia .
national holiday turned into nazi parade
what a shame


:(
 
DrTeeth said:
Which is?

Not yet fully resolved.

There is another thread which speaks of a possible intifada. The apparent high level of coordination in the rioting suggests planning by participants - not a simple expression of frustration.

This does not fall neatly into the "poverty breeds violence" model.
 
This Melanie Philips.. I bothered to read the whole fucking piece of crap she fabricated. I don´t take people serious who write racist stuff like:

"For more than twenty years France’s Muslim areas have been out of control. Indeed, they only turned into Muslim ghettoes in the first place because Muslim violence and harassment forced everyone else out."

"Banning the hijab (Islamic headscarf) in schools represented a flickering of the old national certainty as France sniffed the danger that had arisen in its midst. But it was too little, and maybe too late."

"The warning for us from the disturbing events in France could not be clearer. We must end the ruinous doctrine of multiculturalism and reassert British identity and British values"

Her self description is: "Styled a conservative by her opponents, she prefers to think of herself as defending authentic liberal values against the attempt to destroy western culture from within."

Congrats, Lady. You´re singling out 14-16 year old kids who are totally disillusioned because of said disengagement and racism of the French government. The protestors, as to my knowledge and apart from unconfirmed stories, haven´t killed anyone; they crash with the police for sure, but you know, for 2 weeks of riots the "collateral damage" is surprisingly low. Apparently, word is out amongst the protestors that people are not to be harmed.

Now what this journalist does is sitr up negative emotions and equalling juvenile outsiders with terrorists that plant bombs. It is irresponsible and fuels the fire. There is no research, and opinions about an intifada are based on vague assumptions about what certain people in certain communities say. Apart from that, I have read no other article that says that the youngsters are "claiming their own territory".

If we compare and throw assumptions around: why not compare the recent riots on France with the riots of African-Americans in the end of the 60s in America. Or more actual, certain streets in LA belong to certain gangs too. Would anyone speak of an intifada of the African-Americans in that respect?

No. But the "journalist" Melanie Philips.. (ehm journalist? Daily Mail.. excuse me) can afford to fuel the fire and get away with it.
 
I tend to agree with hiphop.

And even if this is an attempt to start an uprising amongst the poor and African/Arab communities in France, where is the faith in the French government to handle the situation?

An uprising can only succeed if the vast majority of people it is targeted to support it.

Maybe some of us need to watch the movie "The Battle of Algiers" or read Frantz Fanon's "The Wretched of the Earth" to TRULY understand what is motivating the uprisings in France.:yes:
 
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