nbcrusader
Blue Crack Addict
bonosloveslave said:Peace to all for the night - I need to get at least a smidge of beauty rest for tomorrow
Not you!
bonosloveslave said:Peace to all for the night - I need to get at least a smidge of beauty rest for tomorrow
Angela Harlem said:Someone who believes in God but doesn't attend church, or read the bible is not going? You have to join the club to get a seat?
Someone who spends quite a portion of their life looking for God, always believing but not quite feeling the relationship is there, is not going?
What is the definition (anyone's) on Thou Shalt Not Judge. Thinking to yourself "that Mormon/Buddhist/Muslim/JW isn't going to heaven as they haven't found the path. The path declared by Jesus himself". Is this not thinking for God? I've understood no mere man can or should assume to know His intentions. I see judgement, or what I refer to it, when this kind of thing happens. The speaker orates based on their views and thus looks to be saying 'this is how it is going to be chaps'. No one knows what His plan is. A few hundred pages of a book don't explain what I think is one of the most vast and complex plans. Saying this or anything along these lines is based on someone's very own personal view and relationship with God as they see it, and making a judgement on someone else's on God's behalf. No one knows what God has planned for me. To say they'd know, I find highly presumptuous. We really never know God's will, right?
Calling on sin. Let God judge me. Same principle as above I supose.
/random thoughts
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the YOU and ME in this post is not any one person, but figurative
nbcrusader said:
No one is saying He can't or won't. The issue is, "what is your source of Truth?"
nbcrusader said:
I could go on.....
martha said:So.
Some Christians believe that only those who profess a faith in Jesus as their Saviour will go to Heaven. Some Christians believe that professing faith and good behavior will get you there. Some Christians believe that decent behavior will get you there, even without faith in Jesus.
Did I get that right?
Moonlit_Angel said:I just hate the idea of heaven being some elite little club where only certain people can be allowed in-that's what some Christians I've come across in this country have made it seem like, and I don't like that. That doesn't sound like something an all-loving God would do.
Moonlit_Angel said:Just out of curiosity, to the Christians out there, what would happen if another religion's god was the one we all should've been worshipping this time? What would you do then?
Moonlit_Angel said:God himself has not come down and shown us he truly exists, so is it any wonder then why some don't believe in him?
Moonlit_Angel said:I don't think he'd reject non-Christians because they didn't know for sure,
Moonlit_Angel said:just as I don't think Allah would reject non-Muslims because they didn't know for sure.
Dreadsox said:You could...and I could begin with each one of these, and we can disuss the intent of the whole entire passage, the people who were writing it, and the reason the letter or Gospel was written. Rather than lines taken out of it.
Dreadsox said:Nothing I have said indicates that he ultimately is not the way. My contention is again, that the Salvation that Jesus extends is not dependant on mankind. The Salvation that Jesus offers is available to all and Jesus, being the doorman does get to decide.
Dreadsox said:The Holy Spirit does not just in Christians alone.
Dreadsox said:If you believe that you can see so much of God in children, then how does that happen. The children I see show much of Gods love towards each other in many ways. There are so many who are NOT Christian. It is impossible for me to say they are not part of God's plan nor that they are welcome in the kingdom because they are Christian or NOT.
Dreadsox said:There is only one Judge. He is Merciful. He is Forgiving. He is Understanding.
Angela Harlem said:Someone who believes in God but doesn't attend church, or read the bible is not going? You have to join the club to get a seat?
Angela Harlem said:What is the definition (anyone's) on Thou Shalt Not Judge. Thinking to yourself "that Mormon/Buddhist/Muslim/JW isn't going to heaven as they haven't found the path. The path declared by Jesus himself". Is this not thinking for God?
paxetaurora said:Isn't it enough to say that none of us deserves Heaven, since we are all sinners,
nbcrusader said:
Funny, but God didn't say having more people on your side will get you to heaven.
anitram said:I was pointing out that there are people on this thread like martha who were wondering about where "Christians" stand wrt this issue. Others on this thread were issuing blanket statements about "Christians" without mentioning a little something about their views actually being minority Christian views. That's what is important, I think. Because what I see happening is that Christianity is getting hijacked by the more evangelical denominations, when in reality, they are not at all representative of the majority Christian view. The views among the different denominations are becoming so different and so extreme in some cases that I don't believe it is possible whatsoever to have a united Christianity.
anitram said:Where did I say this? Thanks for imagining things.
nbcrusader said:Why in the world do you portray this as a elite little club. We are discussing a grace that is open to EVERYONE! Not one believer or nonbeliever can prevent you from accepting God's gift of grace. I'm not sure what you are hating here.
Originally posted by nbcrusader
We can get different speculative answers for each speculative scenario we can think up. The discussion is based on what has been revealed to us.
Originally posted by nbcrusader
Well, I am sure things will change when Jesus does return. Until then, we are left with this:
"For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." Romans 1:20
Originally posted by nbcrusader
Is it fair to say that we will be judged based on what has been revealed to us?
Originally posted by nbcrusader
Is this based on your knowledge of Islam or your general conceptions of God?
Blacksword said:My personal belief on the matter is that salvation is through Christ alone and the Grace his life, death and resurrection imparted to all people. Yet it is the responsibilty of people to accept that grace. That is the element of free will. We are free to accept or reject God. Heaven in being with God, hell is eternal separation from God. And as we were made by God to be with with him, therefore eternal separation from Him is eternal suffering. But it is a chose thing. God does not send people to hell, hell is a choice.
Now while I belive faith in Christ as the Son of God, truly God, and in his Salvation is the only sure way to be in a right relationship with God, I do belive that God's Grace though Christ is unlimited and knows no bounds. Yet we do not know how that Grace works or how it might save others. And the weight of testimony in all of the Gospels and in the letters is that not all will be saved ( I could give you a list but I don't have time, just let me say its in the range of dozens of verses - it saddens me and it is something I struggle with but it is explicitly stated). Thus we as belivers in Christ evangelize as we only know of one sure way for people to be saved. Thus we must attempt to "make disciples of all nations," as we are the only instuments of God's Grace that we know of explicitly.
At the same time there is also the fact that when Christ died he died and thus was with everyone who had died and will die and the tradition is that he preached to all in Sheol (the grave). So God has not forgotten anyone.
As to works. Faith and works are related closely. If one has faith one has good works. "A tree is judged by its fruit." Though at the same time it is hard to determine the difference faith makes as every person is different. This is why being nice, or "good" is simply not enough. If one is born with a disposition to be mean and nasty and has a terrible childhood, one's natural inclination is to be vile and awful. Faith in Christ will make that person a lot better than they would be with out it, yet it may not make them as pleasant as say someone who was bron with a basic personality matrix which is cheerful and generous and had a welcoming upbringing in pleasant surroundings. This is one reason why we must never judge. We do not see the inner soul which is more than the outer shell of personality and the mind and the physical body. To paraphrase C.S. Lewis: (from whom most of my langue here comes) for one who has been brutalized since brith the smallest action of kindness may require the same spiritual effort as a laying down your life for another for a person with a nice life and a nice disposition. It is the state of the soul whihc matters in the end rather than how outwardly good you are. But at the same time one cannot be in relationship with Christ while doing evil unrepentantly. And true repentance involves a far greater internal change than just saying sorry, or outwardly repenting onyour deathbed for fear of the fires of hell. But the fact is that people who have murdered will be in heaven (the thief on the cross whom Jesus promised would be with him in Paradise didn't get there for being a nice guy, most likely he was a rebel who killed some people along the way). But at their death they will not have been murderers as they will have repented much as the thief on the cross did (thief in the modern translation can be misleading as Barabas is called a thief in some accounts and rebel and murderer in others).
Works only matter in the way they reflect the soul. If your acceptance of Christ is real then there will a change. The problem is that some of us require more work than others.
Moonlit_Angel said:Actually, I'm not the one portraying heaven as an elite club-some Christians I've come across in my lifetime are the ones who make it out to be one, and I was just wondering why that is. That is what I hate.
Moonlit_Angel said:I don't think that's what heaven is, or should be. I think heaven would welcome any good souls with open arms, regardless of who they are.
Moonlit_Angel said:And if this grace is open to everyone, then I would think that even if somebody doesn't accept it now, because they have their reasons, God would therefore understand, and wouldn't automatically reject them because they weren't ready to accept it.
Moonlit_Angel said:If God's nature is so easily understood, why are there so many denominations of Christianity? Everyone has their own idea of what God's nature is, so obviously it's not crystal clear.
Moonlit_Angel said:And as for Jesus returning...well, not everyone is sure about that. It might happen, it might not. Nobody knows for sure. I don't know, you don't know, nobody knows.
Moonlit_Angel said:General conceptions of God, overall. That, and I do know a Muslim who's shared a little about their faith with me from time to time. I'm not an expert on Islam, but from what this person's shared with me, Allah's just as nice as the Christian God is.
nbcrusader said:
You were discounting the concept of sola fide,
Blacksword said:If one has faith one has good works. .... But at the same time one cannot be in relationship with Christ while doing evil unrepentantly.... But the fact is that people who have murdered will be in heaven
martha said:The assumption that Christians cannot do evil is proven time and again to be untrue. Many people who truly believe in Christ commit evil every day. And they frequently do it in Christ's name!
nbcrusader said:Actually, in Islam, non-muslims have NO chance of paradice.
martha said:
That whole post was excellent and intelligently written.
But the parts I've excerpted here are the troublesome parts for me. The assumption that Christians cannot do evil is proven time and again to be untrue. Many people who truly believe in Christ commit evil every day. And they frequently do it in Christ's name!
Is it a matter of whose definition of evil is used?