Bono with the US on the war in Afghanistan

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Originally posted by Angel:

Hey Zoo Schabow, want to be my friend? I like intelligent people.

Hehehe!
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I'm done discussing this topic. It's Christmas time and the last thing I want to talk about is this.

In closing, I want to say I think it's terrible that any innocent people had to die in Afghanistan. Unfortunately, I don't see any other way the U.S. could go about this war.

sv- I do agree with your points. But this is a war of urgency! We need Al-Queda and the Taliban gone NOW! That's why America is bombing.

I pray for the innocent Afghan people and the great people of America. Hopefully we can all be united some day.

Merry Christmas
 
Very, very well said SV...I don't think a lot of Americans (and apparently Canadians) know much about your first point especially. I'm always reluctant to bring it up b/c
1) I have no credibility as a non-American
2) Noam Chomsky has a bad rep. down there!
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I think it takes a lot of cojones to write what you did - I have an American friend (from here incidentally) who's been struggling with this from day one - he says it's almost impossible to go against the grain on this one - you're dubbed a terrorist sympathizer or the likes if you do.

Again, I applaud you...
 
Originally posted by ladywithspinninghead:
What are you saying Angel? That because me and a couple of fellow Interferencers (not to mention the majority of the planet) are opposed to the U.S.' way of handling this, we're "ignorant" (as you wrote above) and non-intelligent?

Well that's nice to know.


ladywiththespinninghead.....

I know you don't want to discuss it further, and I truly don't want to get into a big thing, but......

What should the US have done about Al Quada, the Taliban and Osama bin Laden? Nothing? I am opposed to civilian lives of any kind being lost, but the United States was simply defending itself the only way possible, in this unusual situation -- in my opinion. But I am curious as to what you think should have been done.

Later.


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Live As If You'll Die Tomorrow, Dream As If You'll Live Forever!
 
Originally posted by sv:
Sorry, more.

The premise that catching Bin Laden will stop terrorism is terminally flawed. The most important reason to catch someone who murdered thousands of people is to prevent it from happening again. But if WE kill thousands of people in supposed pursuit of him, and prove ourselves to be equally dangerous, doesn't that defeat the purpose?

Or does our right to punish Bin Laden outweigh innocent Afghani civilians' right to live?

Terrorism can never be stopped completely. But killing Osama bin Laden and shutting down his network of terrorists who apparently had grand plans to end our way of life -- by any means necessary -- will go a long way toward saving innocent lives. And I guarantee you Afghanistan as a whole is a lot better off now, free of the murderous Taliban, than they were four months ago.



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Live As If You'll Die Tomorrow, Dream As If You'll Live Forever!
 
Originally posted by ladywithspinninghead:
What are you saying Angel? That because me and a couple of fellow Interferencers (not to mention the majority of the planet) are opposed to the U.S.' way of handling this, we're "ignorant" (as you wrote above) and non-intelligent?

Well that's nice to know.

Wow Julie, that was so not how it was meant to sound. I have nothing against you at all. You seem like an extremely intelligent person and are completely entitled to your own opinion. I am just a little confused as to some of the people's ignorance on this forum that's all. We don;t live in a perfect world as much as we'd all like to and too many people here think solutions to the problems we are facing today are so simple when in fact they are not. It's a complicated world and I think the US is doing as best they can.
I am sorry innocent lives are being lost, I really am, and if there were another way to deal with this, a more peaceful way, I'd be all for it, I just don't see that there is.
Anyway, I am done here in this post and I hope there are no hard feelings. I don't like to argue, and I don't like to make people feel like their opinins are not valid too. I just can't put on a blind eye to ignorance. And for the record, it was not about you.
 
Okay, here goes...I'm just waiting to be flamed by all you bloodthirsty anglo-saxons!!
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And not to mention, I know I will get accusations of being idealist, naive, etc...well, if Bono is "so intelligent", does that mean he was non-intelligent when he was a pacifist??? (as he implies above)

What *I* think the U.S. could do (with a little input from Professor Galtung - thank you!
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):
"
*1] Willingness to recognize Palestine as a state: this has already happened and the US should be commended for that.

[2] Remove all US military presence from Arabia, recognizing that this is a sacred land for very many Muslims, with Mecca and Medina, opening the way towards democracy in that dictatorship.

[3] Lifting the sanctions on Iraq, negotiating with the regime, and apologize for Albright's "it was worth the price" remark. More difficult, this would require real statesmanship.

[4] Accepting the invitation by President Khatami for an open, public, high level dialogue on the relation between Iran/US, and West/Christianity vs Islam in general. The US fears a dialogue of this type will be used for propaganda, and some disagreeable things will probably be said about the USA-CIA supported coup against the elected prime minister, Mossadegh and in favor the non-elected shah. But after that critique, which any mature person is able to stand, comes the constructive phase where one could only hope Iran is well prepared: "OK, OK, where do go from here" is an excellent, standard American formulation.

[5] Hands off Afghanistan. This is partly because any US presence will strengthen the argument about ulterior motives and may stimulate an anti-US coalition, partly as a sign of respect. A UN presence up to trusteeship level is a viable alternative.

Economic-political:

[6] Globalization-free zones, in the regions where people die from globalization because of too little money to buy from the market for their basic needs. The Kyoto protocol already had the Third World as an exemption so there is nothing new in the idea of differential approaches. The alternative would be a Marshall plan for the poorest areas of the world in the Andes region, Black Africa and South Asia. strengthening the local, informal economy with a view to basic needs satisfaction for all.

[7] Reconciliation: learn from the German approach to the 18 countries they conquered and the 2 nations they tried to exterminate, the Jews and the Sinta/Roma. Today Germany has reasonable relations to all, and a key element went beyond apologies and compensation to including rewriting of textbooks.

All together this could turn a page in history, and it would cost very little relative to the enormous expenses incurred by their current policy. The political gains would probably also be enormous. But will yielding to their demand not stimulate terrorism?

It might stimulate some. But it would isolate most of them by no longer giving them the ocean of hatred in which they can swim and be stimulated whereas a policy of military attack will only deepen and widen that ocean. At the same time it would generate positive processes, virtuous cycles that would very soon overshadow the vicious cycles of retaliation, capture people's attention all over and, like the European Community did for Europe in the 1950s, constitute a quantum jump in world politics. This is indeed overdue.

[This message has been edited by ladywithspinninghead (edited 12-21-2001).]

[This message has been edited by ladywithspinninghead (edited 12-21-2001).]
 
Originally posted by sv:
Sorry, more.

The premise that catching Bin Laden will stop terrorism is terminally flawed. The most important reason to catch someone who murdered thousands of people is to prevent it from happening again. But if WE kill thousands of people in supposed pursuit of him, and prove ourselves to be equally dangerous, doesn't that defeat the purpose?


So we've killed about 3,700 civilians in Afghanistan. Is that OK if it prevents the deaths of 3,701 more Americans by al-Qaeda? Are there ever situations that would justify killing 3,700 civilians in Afghanistan? (Honest question here; an honest reply is appreciated.)
 
it's only rock 'n roll but I like it

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Salome
Shake it, shake it, shake it
 
A couple points:

* The Mirror is a tabloid type paper, and they tend to only include the print that will sell. I, for one, would like to hear the rest of what Bono said in this interview. I am quite certain, knowing Bono, that he has much more to say on the subject. It's easy to take what he said out of context, because there is hardly ANY context.

* I checked atu2.com, and I can't find the article anywhere. So Ally, can you please post a direct link, as I'd like to check out the rest of the article (if there is more).

* Even if Bono isn't a pacifist, in this particular case, it doesn't mean he isn't at all critical on how the US are going about this war (ie, targetting areas of high civilian population, etc)

* I know Bono has always said that an idea isn't worth more than a human life. This article makes it seem as though he no longer holds that view. That needs to be looked into (ie, the context of the article needs to be examined before making any rash judgements).

* sv, I agree with you completely.

So, before we ALL JUMP DOWN BONO'S THROAT, let's consider some of the facts first!

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The Tempest

[This message has been edited by Michael Griffiths (edited 12-21-2001).]
 
I'm not jumping down Bono's throat, I actually agree with him 100%, and I don't think he is being misquoted. He is right on. There is no other realistic alternative. And as Ladywiththespinningheads "solution" of ending sanctions against Iraq......

Iraq won't let the United Nations in for weapons inspections as they are obliged to. Saddam Hussein is very likely developing Nuclear weapons. What are we suppposed to do? Just let him? Do nothing? Wouldn't it be great if we lived in a perfect world? Alas, we do not. The next military action needs to be against Saddam to finally force him and his evil regime out of power so the people of that country can finally experience what it is like to free. And we can finally be assured that he is not developing nuclear weapons in his desire to wipe us from the face of the earth -- the same desire that Mr. Osama bin Laden posseses. But wait, we should just let him develop these weapons, right? And then when he uses his nuclear power on us, we should do what, exactly? Would we be justified in responding then? Or should we just remain pacificistic? It would be wonderful to live in a perfect world.

I'm outta here......time to go out.......

Hitman

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Live As If You'll Die Tomorrow, Dream As If You'll Live Forever!

[This message has been edited by Hitman (edited 12-21-2001).]
 
Yeah somebody better tell Bono to stop clutching all those American Flags in all those arenas.Maybe if Arun would of NEVERED brought THAT AMERICAN FLAG to HAMILTON CANADA in the first place WE wouldnt be "misinterpreting" Bono's true feelings.

Stop pulling up all those AmericanPolicemen and Firemen on stage and marching around the Heart w/them.

Stop referring to Bin Laden as a "Coward", "Poverety Pimp", "Fanactic'
and "Pink Donut"

I guess he is just trying to sell records- why else would he be doing this?

Diamond.

ps-
Salome Thanks for saying nice things about my kids in other thread.

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"...The big guy is made of STEEL." - Bono as we stood together on stage at Boston #4, June 9th, 2001.

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Well I'm just soooo happy this topic is so popular. I posted part of this article this morning in the 'next album to be hard rocking and will blow your mind says Bono' thread but Gina and zedge just made fun of me and turned it into a cow tipping joke. sigh.
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But I never knew about the political part, all I saw was the album part.




[This message has been edited by U2Kitten (edited 12-21-2001).]
 
You know what..your right..let's not do anything in the war on terrorism. Let's sit back and wait, and when the next hijacked plane has your loved ones on it..let's see if your still a pacifist.
 
For the attention of SV. Wow, just when my faith in this forum was in doubt you restore it. These are brave sentiments your airing, especially being American. Your country is beautiful. It's art & culture has & still does shape & influence the rest of the world. How can a country that calls Martin Luther King & Mohammed Ali it's own have such a fucked up, insidious government? I love U2. There music & Bono's poltical views inspired me but lately it's just been the music.
 
Originally posted by Diamond The U2 Patriot:
I told you guys long ago that Bono was a 'closet Republican'.

LOL Diamond- We can only dream.

Seriously, I don't think Bono is any more conservative now than he was four months ago. But, this thread did remind me of a rather explosive thread from a few months ago, when a liberal interferencer(I forget who) wondered how a conservative could honestly call himself a U2/Bono fan. I'm wondering what he and everone else who allign themselves w/U2 because of its political views are going to do now.

Buy the new Creed album, I guess....

[This message has been edited by StarsnStripes (edited 12-21-2001).]
 
Ah, excellent. I appear to be registered at last. Pity I couldn't have been notified.

Well, about Bono and Afghanistan. It may or may not have been taken out of context, but it's his opinion, no more or less. Claiming him as a political ally because of one press comment seems pretty dumb to me.

After all six months ago he was persona non grata regarding the whole Charlton Heston/guns thing, was he not?

This topic really is quite interesting though. Beats the usual trivial bullshit.
 
Originally posted by sv:


Bono made some comments on U2 music compared with other mainstream music, that went something like this: Anger is easy to create. Joy and peace are much harder to express in songs. I think he hit the nail on the head: bombing those Afghani civilians is easy and makes us feel like we're fighting terrorists. The harder road, but the one which can improve the world, is to fight terrorism by making it unnecessary in the eyes of those who might consider it.


That's the crux of the matter. It involves all of us trying to promote understanding.


What Bono says is all well and good, but it sure is contradictory that he would sing "What's Going On," an anti-war song, if that's indeed how he feels. (or was that just to promote the charity release?)
 
I'd just like to say I've heard enough shit about how the US Military is conducting the war wrong. People on here simply do not understand the lengths to which the military goes to prevent civilian deaths, or how investment in high tech weapons has saved probably millions of Afghan lives. Fact is if the operation were being conducted with WW II technology millions of Afgans would be dead. It took over a thousand sorties in WW II to take out a single target. Around 150 in Vietnam. Today it is usually one or at most two. This part of the reason the civilian losses today or a tiny fraction of what they were 50 years ago.
The members of the US military deserve only are support, admiration, and respect.
In addition, a new government is now being formed in Afghanistan which would not have been possible without the removal of the Taliban. This in itself will save hundreds of thousands of people from being murdered for BS reasons, and women from being abused. The bombing was necessary and just and helped achieved the better conditions that exist now.
 
Originally posted by *Ally*:
Bono has also revealed he is no longer a pacifist since the war against
terror.

In an interview with Hot Press he said he supports the US-led war on
Afghanistan.

He added: "I don't see any alternative to what they've done.

"I'm no longer a pacifist but not because I don't want to be but
because I can't live up to it in my own life.

"If somebody was threatening my wife and kids I would not turn the
other cheek.



That is disappointing. Not that he supports the US but because he feels that he can no longer call himself a pacifist. I hope this article does turn out to be some crazy nonesuch.

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One love, one life...
Give peace a chance!
Don't let the bastards grind you down!

Create Light
Create Unity
Create Joy
CREATE PEACE!
 
I think this pretty much proves that people will argue anything and everything.

As for me? I have no comment.

~Melon

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"Oh no...my brains."
 
ladywithspinninghead,

About your suggestions for the US...

Those all seem like concessions for the US. Do you propose anything in return from these countries?

Like for the Palestinians to completely stop the terrorist attacks on Isreal, if we recognize them as a state?

hmmmm???

Mark
http://www.mp3.com/madelyniris
 
Well, maybe I might share some of Bono's ideas on this, since the article didn't quite said more than "Bono is for US", but I am for getting Bin Ladden to International Justice and I am for getting the Talibans out, but I don't approve the way it all have gone now. And it's getting out of control and sinking in madness now. We could argue a lot on the ways of taking Bin Laden to International Justice and getting the Talibans out, but now this war is aparently be exported to Irak or Somalia... mmm mmm...

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?Je suis le dernier homme. Contre tous, je me d?fendrai...?
"I am the last man. Against all, I shall defend myself..."
- 'Rhinoc?ros', Ionesco

!Hasta la victoria, siempre!

"The one who governs with weapons is clearly poor in ideas". - Subcommandante Marcos
 
Originally posted by U2FReAk:
well said, sv.
I hate to say it, but my admiration for Bono has definately sunk for the last couple of months. Hugging american flags, superbowl and now this... wow. Who would have thought.

Yeah... my admiration sunk when Bono signed on for every frickin' "do-gooder" project he could in the 80's. Donate a song to world hunger? Sure. Help sing a song for farmers? Why not! Show up at a marathon for those who eat too many Cheerios? Count me in!

Bono's flag-hugging now is no different, in MY eyes, than his flag-waving years ago. In fact, I like this better now. Back then, it was almost like he didn't care about any country or any politics. At least now he sees that the world, sadly, doesn't have issues that can always be resolved by diplomacy.

As for things like the Super Bowl - I see no difference between that and the zillion trinkets and gadgets that the AB era offered to fans at stores. In '87/'88, U2 didn't know how to say "no" to being on the covers of magazines - as Bono himself was on Rolling Stone around 4 times those two years. At least now, he appears for good reasons, like the Jubilee project.
 
I think things Bono said in that interview were taken out of context.

Anyways, it sucks that we lost 3 thousand of our own at the hands of them, and they lost 3 thousand of their own at the hands of us.

But a country is being freed, and for a while it seemed like the USA was as strong and united as ever.

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The more of these I drink the more Bono makes sense.. - Bean from the KROQ Breakfast with U2.
 
There is nothing, absolutely NOTHING new in this article. All of you who are "disappointed" in Bono's "new" outlook haven't been paying any attention over the last 18 years.
First of all, Bono is a liberal. He may not fit your definition of what constitutes liberalism but he really hasn't changed him viewpoints all that much since he became a public figure.
Bono has said countless times over the years that the idea of pacifism intrigues him because he is a very violent person who finds it difficult to turn the other cheek. He's been spitting out variations on that theme since 1983 at least. In how many articles has Bono mentioned his tendency to beat the living shit out of people who confront him? Hell Bono decked a fan at one of the Elevation gigs because the guy yelled at him. Bono has even admitted that he has had to pay off a lot of the people he fought. SO, Bono's not a pacifist and has NEVER claimed to be one. What he has said repeatedly over the years is that he ADMIRES people like MLK and Ghandi because they are so different from him.
Also, do any of you remember the U.S. intervention in the former Yugoslavia? Hello? Anyone? Bono shilled for U.S. military action there for nearly 8 years before it happened. I don't recall U2 fans disagreeing with him at the time. When the U.S. finally did he supported it and said, quote, "For once the U.S. has it right..." Does anyone else recall that the U.S./NATO led bombing attacks cost thousands of people there lives? Hell the U.S. accidentally bombed the Chinese embassy! Why would Bono support such an action if he were a pacifist and why didn't you notice it at the time?
I suspect that Bono supported both that war (lets not kid ourselves it's still war even if you don't officially declare it) AND this current war because he believes or hopes that it would lead to the greater good. Also he admits that if someone tried to kill his wife or children HE would kill them and he is honest and introspective enough to realize that it would be the worst sort of hypocrisy to tell Americans to do any differently.
Now, he may be wrong and he may be full of shit and he may even be morally confused (not all of us are as morally unassailable as many of you think you are) but he certainly isn't being inconsistent.

MAP

p.s.- Now I suspect that some of you, not all, but SOME of you are particularly offended by Bono's stance here because the U.S. led military attacks in Afghanistan are in defense of American lives. NATO's actions in the former Yugoslavia were, for the most part, in the defence of innocent Muslims. Where was the teeth gnashing and vitriol then? Or aren't American lives worth fighting for too?
 
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