Abortion

[intedomine]

Yeah I meant chemical castration - i don't mean to actually nut them, but to give them drugs that decrease their libedio or whatever, to at least give them a fighting chance of leading a productive life because statistics show that rape is one of the most reoffending crimes and something has to be done other then locking them up forever.

And i don't think denying someone a sexual urge when that urge makes them commit terrible crimes with chemicals is sharia level

but im derailing the thread...

I don't know if eliminating their sexual drive is necessarily the right answer.

A lot of rapists rape primarily for the thrill they get out of physically overpowering someone. A sense of power. It's not about getting their rocks off, it's about power and control.

If you castrate them, they'll just find other ways to assert and fulfil their desire to physically overpower someone, namely through torture or murder.

 

[intedomine]

I would say a potential human life is more important.

Of course the debate has never been as simple as comfort vs. potential human life.

I, personally, could never place mere potential human life ahead of "comfort" or "convenience." I feel this way primarily because of issues such as rape, faulty contraception, the sheer spontanaeity of sex (ie. why should one sexual act condemn an unwilling mother to a "life sentence" of sorts) etc. etc.

The argument is endless. Everyone's opinion differs...

Now there is no proof of this at all (nor is there any proof against it), but for there to ever be a "factual" "right" or "wrong" in the abortion debate, surely what it must all boil down to is how mentally aware the unborn child/fetus is of their own feelings. How responsive are they to their/it's own death? How much do they feel it? No one can answer that.

And the whole abortion debate cannot simply be about being "for-abortion" or "against-abortion". The number of weeks a child has spent in the womb must be considered. Indeed, I've read some disturbing reports about "aborted" " crying babies" being tossed in a bin while their heart is still beating. That is disgraceful.

Can anyone therefore determine a particular moment during pregnancy in which the possibility of a woman carrying out an abortion should become illegal from that moment on. When? 5 weeks? 20 weeks? 35 weeks?

It's an endless argument? Why do we bother?

 

[80sU2isBest]

Yeah, it's none of the governments damn business. Just like if you were to get a vasectomy - that's killing the potential for human life - but no one would care b/c no one else needs to know. It's not so much that abortion is the problem, but the precedent it would set if the government were to ban them.

But I'm talking specifically about people who believe abortion is murder, yet don't want it to be made illegal.

How can someone who believes it is murder think it's not the government's business? Why do they think that murder should be a personal choice?

 

[80sU2isBest]

Well, this would be me, but let's make sure we're clear on terms here. While I do believe that abortion does take human life, I don't believe it is "murder." At this point--and my views on this arestill in process--I believe that not all "taking of human life" is equivalent to murder. On that much, I'm betting we agree. You might argue, for example that a soldier killing in wartime is not committing murder, and I might agree with you.

However, taking a human life is a huge thing. God did not create us to take the lives of our fellows, and when we do I believe thereis a high cost to the one who takes the life as well as to the one who loses the life. Still, in this sin-stained world, sometimes sadly, it is necessary. It should never be entered into flippantly and it should always be with a recognition of the costs involved but, yes, sometimes, it is necessary. And sometimes that "taking of life" means an abortion.

Yes, not all killing of human beings is murder. For example, if someone were trying to kill you, and you killed that person first, it would be self-defense.

But the intentional killing of an innocent human being is murder.

 

[80sU2isBest]

yes, sometimes, it is necessary. And sometimes that "taking of life" means an abortion.

I'm curious about this. Under what conditions, besides to save the life of a mother, would you call abortion "necessary".

 

[80sU2isBest]

Now there is no proof of this at all (nor is there any proof against it), but for there to ever be a "factual" "right" or "wrong" in the abortion debate, surely what it must all boil down to is how mentally aware the unborn child/fetus is of their own feelings. How responsive are they to their/it's own death? How much do they feel it? No one can answer that.

And the whole abortion debate cannot simply be about being "for-abortion" or "against-abortion". The number of weeks a child has spent in the womb must be considered. Indeed, I've read some disturbing reports about "aborted" " crying babies" being tossed in a bin while their heart is still beating. That is disgraceful.

Can anyone therefore determine a particular moment during pregnancy in which the possibility of a woman carrying out an abortion should become illegal from that moment on. When? 5 weeks? 20 weeks? 35 weeks?

It's an endless argument? Why do we bother?

Hello.

I think that a good way to start answering these questions is to take a good long look at a detailed fetal developmental timeline. It's pretty amazing.

 

[BrownEyedBoy]

I don't know if eliminating their sexual drive is necessarily the right answer.

A lot of rapists rape primarily for the thrill they get out of physically overpowering someone. A sense of power. It's not about getting their rocks off, it's about power and control.

If you castrate them, they'll just find other ways to assert and fulfil their desire to physically overpower someone, namely through torture or murder.

Well, then it seems clear that these people cannot function properly within society. Kill ´em or jail ´em.

 

[redhotswami]

Yes, not all killing of human beings is murder. For example, if someone were trying to kill you, and you killed that person first, it would be self-defense.

and this is where I disagree. a life is a life is a life, right? just because somebody is guilty according to our social standards, in no way lessens the life of that person. i know you're a Christian, so I just wanna point out that God loves you as much as me as much as the rapists, the murderers, etc. knowing that, how can you still justify taking other peoples lives? self defense??? isn't that the "convenience" or "comfort" that was talked about before?

i'm just asking for your opinion is all. your statement sparked these questions.

 

[Justin24]

Do we consider micro organisms life? Even scientists who discovered life on mars (Even though not human) is still life. So a When a man and woman have sex or if a woman goes to a fertility clinic and is injected with sperm and the sperm and egg meet and start forming, it's life.

 

[80sU2isBest]

and this is where I disagree. a life is a life is a life, right? just because somebody is guilty according to our social standards, in no way lessens the life of that person. i know you're a Christian, so I just wanna point out that God loves you as much as me as much as the rapists, the murderers, etc. knowing that, how can you still justify taking other peoples lives? self defense??? isn't that the "convenience" or "comfort" that was talked about before?

i'm just asking for your opinion is all. your statement sparked these questions.

No, it's not the same at all. The "convenience" or "comfort" talked about regarding abortion refers to not wanting to carry a baby to term for various reasons; it does not involve saving a life from the attack of a malicious person, as killing in self-defense does.

As a Christian, I am allowed to protect my own life and those around me just as anyone else would be. There is nothing in the Bible that prohibits this.

Not only does the Bible not prohibit this, but the laws of our country make a big distinction between killing in self defense and murder.

And concerning that God loves murderers as much as he loves non-murderers: while that may be true (who knows), God also allows us to experience the consequences of our actions. If someone sets out to murder someone, he took his fate into his hands, and should be expecting the possibility of being killed in the process of his murderous intentions.

 

[yolland]

Yes, not all killing of human beings is murder. For example, if someone were trying to kill you, and you killed that person first, it would be self-defense.

But to refer back to Sean's example, not all killing that occurs in combat situations fits that scenario. We all know what "collateral damage" is, and part of the reason that euphemism exists is because we recognize the ethical difficulty in accounting for civilian deaths resulting from actions which it was known in advance might have that result. Yet when it happens we don't automatically deem it murder or manslaughter, even though it's untruthful to say that the soldier(s) were "defending" themselves from civilians, or that they had no idea their actions would quite likely kill a few of them along with the "bad guys."

I'm not trying to suggest a battlefield/uterus analogy here, the point is that what constitutes murder isn't universally obvious; a murder is by definition an unlawful killing, yes, but in order to define what's unlawful you must first have agreed-upon legal definitions of 'person,' 'innocent,' and so forth, as well as agreed-upon definitions of what, if any, the mitigating factors might be ('crime of passion,' combat situation, etc.).

 

[80sU2isBest]

But to refer back to Sean's example, not all killing that occurs in combat situations fits that scenario. We all know what "collateral damage" is, and part of the reason that euphemism exists is because we recognize the ethical difficulty in accounting for civilian deaths resulting from actions which it was known in advance might have that result. Yet when it happens we don't automatically deem it murder or manslaughter, even though it's untruthful to say that the soldier(s) were "defending" themselves from civilians, or that they had no idea their actions would quite likely kill a few of them along with the "bad guys."

But remember, my definition of murder is the "intentional killing of an innocent human being". In the scenario you are discussing, there is no intentional killing of innocent human beings. The soldiers are not intending to kill the civilians.

 

[redhotswami]

But I'm talking specifically about people who believe abortion is murder, yet don't want it to be made illegal.

How can someone who believes it is murder think it's not the government's business? Why do they think that murder should be a personal choice?

i'm not 100% sure because i don't share the opinion of the people that you stated above, but i don't know if it is so much that "murder should be a personal choice" and perhaps it is more along the lines that what happens to one's body should be a personal choice.

 

[BVS]

Do we consider micro organisms life? Even scientists who discovered life on mars (Even though not human) is still life. So a When a man and woman have sex or if a woman goes to a fertility clinic and is injected with sperm and the sperm and egg meet and start forming, it's life.

You're pretty much arguing the same thing 80's is arguing and the point of the petri dish scenario.

And it's been determined they are pretty much invaluable to us except in word alone. You or 80's wouldn't go back and save them, so what's your point?

 

[BorderGirl]

I dont want to argue; I just want to see it written:
Abortion is wrong, and must be wrong in one and all cases, if it is truly wrong. Aborting as a result of the crime of another is as wrong as aborting from carelessness of actions.


Come on guys, who wants to make FYM history and have the balls to say an abortion from a battered and raped girl is the same as an abortion from a suicidally depressed stupid girl who made a stupid but conscious choice. Come on, guys.

The end result is the same isn't it, regardless of the circumstance? Abortion kills. Death occurs for a fetus or a baby, however you see it.
Trauma endured from a crime or a careless action is eventually resolved one way or another.
You cannot help what people do to you, but you can help how you choose to respond. Solving violence with another violent act is never the answer.
Is it any wonder that everywhere you look life is cheap; trails of used people, fatherless children, estranged siblings, relationships, divorce,......pain.
Look around, we are reaping what we sow.
People are not disposable.
If you want peace, work for justice, for all.
Born or unborn life is not cheap.
Teach your heart to respond with love. Find family or friends who will let you grieve at the sight of the world. Someone who has been raped or abused will not feel better because of an abortion. Abortion does not take this trauma away, it creates another one.
A child should not pay for the actions or 'mistakes' of a father or mother. Innocence is what needs protecting in our *ucked up world......

And a *ucked up world it is too.

 

[Justin24]

You're pretty much arguing the same thing 80's is arguing and the point of the petri dish scenario.

And it's been determined they are pretty much invaluable to us except in word alone. You or 80's wouldn't go back and save them, so what's your point?

So then whats the point of carring about human life period. If we could care less then I could care less what happens to a family that is shot in cold blood or if a nuke went off somewhere. Because life is not sacred.

 

[80sU2isBest]

You're pretty much arguing the same thing 80's is arguing and the point of the petri dish scenario.

And it's been determined they are pretty much invaluable to us except in word alone. You or 80's wouldn't go back and save them, so what's your point?

I didn't say I wouldn't try to go back and save them. I said I'd try to save the little girl first. Here is exactly what I said; I didn't change a word:

"I would first try to save the little girl, because she has made it successfully through the beginning stages of personhood and has exited the woman into full-blown personhood."

 

[Greenlight]

But I'm talking specifically about people who believe abortion is murder, yet don't want it to be made illegal.

How can someone who believes it is murder think it's not the government's business? Why do they think that murder should be a personal choice?

I don't believe abortion is murder - I don't classify an undeveloped foetus as a human being, but I know people who do and who reluctantly support legalised (limited) abortion on the basis that abortions have taken place for centuries (with the consequent loss of life of thousands of women through botched operations), and will continue to do so irrespective of whether it's legal or not, so in a civilised society it's better to have a strictly controlled legalised system in place which safeguards the mothers if not their foetuses.
I don't know how the system operates in the States (are there varying laws in different States?) but I think it is the government's business in so far as there need to be established regulations and procedures at the outset regarding how adoptions can be carried out (how many weeks term they can be carried out to etc) but thereafter it should be a woman's personal choice whether she decides to have an abortion.

 

[BVS]

So then whats the point of carring about human life period. If we could care less then I could care less what happens to a family that is shot in cold blood or if a nuke went off somewhere. Because life is not sacred.

What part of my several hundred posts have you not understood? I have made myself clear so many times it's not even funny. This will be the last time I ever say it to you, if you choose to ignore it again, then I will just have to continue to ignore your posts.

IT'S NOT HUMAN LIFE!!! I never said life isn't sacred. Some cells dividing that couldn't ever survive without being part of something else or in a petri dish isn't life.

 

[BVS]

I didn't say I wouldn't try to go back and save them. I said I'd try to save the little girl first. Here is exactly what I said; I didn't change a word:

"I would first try to save the little girl, because she has made it successfully through the beginning stages of personhood and has exited the woman into full-blown personhood."

You're still putting more value on her life.

 

[Justin24]

I am not ignoring you. You seem to have a different perspective on what life is. If it's not life then what is it doing in woman bodies?

http://www.pregnancy.org/pregnancy/fetaldevelopment1.php

 

[80sU2isBest]

You're still putting more value on her life.

I never said I don't value little girls' lives over those of embryos in a petri dish. In a situation like that, I couldn't do both at once, so I'd have to make a choice about which life was more vital, and try to save that life first.

 

[BVS]

I am not ignoring you. You seem to have a different perspective on what life is. If it's not life then what is it doing in woman bodies?

http://www.pregnancy.org/pregnancy/fetaldevelopment1.php

What's it doing in women's bodies? WTF kind of question is that? Is everything in a woman's body human life?

Oh, and thanks for the link, unlike many in here I actually have taken some science classes. I'm well aware of the developmental stages.

 

[Justin24]

What's it doing in women's bodies? WTF kind of question is that? Is everything in a woman's body human life?

Oh, and thanks for the link, unlike many in here I actually have taken some science classes. I'm well aware of the developmental stages.

Well with out certain organs then life would not excist so--Yes

 

[BVS]

Well with out certain organs then life would not excist so--Yes

So if you remove my lung that lung is human life? Come on Justin, try and make sense.

 

[Justin24]

It's a part of human life.

 

[80sU2isBest]

I am not ignoring you. You seem to have a different perspective on what life is. If it's not life then what is it doing in woman bodies?

http://www.pregnancy.org/pregnancy/fetaldevelopment1.php

That's a great find, Justin. I'm always telling people to take a look at those timelines.

I do not understand how some people can read the following and think a fetus is not a human life.

"The first trimester (0 - 14 weeks), is one of the most crucial for your baby. Within this trimester you will find the most rapid rate of growth and development taking place. By the end of the 1st trimester, your son or daughter will have grown to 3.4 inches (8.7 cm) long and weigh about 1.5 ounces (43 grams). Your infant will develop everything from limbs to vital organs. Week by week the changes are astounding!"

Weeks One through Four
Ovulation occurs - The time is right; now you just need this egg to be fertilized!
Conception occurs - Did you know that during your pregnancy that your uterus will increase its capacity by 1000 times?!
Gender is determined - Immediately upon fertilization your little one is set as a boy or a girl. Ladies, this is one that you can't take credit for since it is up to the sperm to determine the sex of your baby. Sperm carries either a "X" (girl) chromosome or a "Y" (boy) chromosome. (*Hint:* You will have to hold off on picking out the pink or blue until at least the second trimester when the gender will be visible via ultrasound.)
Implantation - Some spotting (also known as implantation bleeding) may occur about 10 - 14 days after conception. You may believe you are starting your period but generally this bleeding is extremely light and lasts only a day or so.
Neural tube forms - It will develop into the nervous system (Brain, spinal cord, hair, and skin). Already your baby has the foundation for thought, senses, feeling, and more!
Heart and primitive circulatory system rapidly form - While still in its beginning stages, this is the very life support system that will carry your child throughout his or her life

Week Five
First heartbeats begin - If you have an early ultrasound you may not be able to recognize this tiny being as a baby, but there is no mistaking what it feels like seeing your child's heartbeat on that screen. That rhythmic beat is echoed in your own heart.
Umbilical cord develops - This is your baby's lifeline in utero. It bears the responsibility of pumping in oxygen, removing waste, and supplying the necessary nutrients for the remainder of your pregnancy.
Blood is now pumping - All four heart chambers are now functioning, insuring your baby's body will receive all it needs over not only the remainder of your pregnancy but throughout life.
Most other organs begin to develop - Your infant's lungs start to appear, along with her brain. Already your little one is preparing for a quest for lifelong learning!
Arm and leg buds appear - While they may not appear to be much at this stage it is ok to dream of the future. Just imagine your ballerina twirling and jumping around your kitchen floor. Or perhaps you will have the precocious boy that throws the perfect pitch -- right through the neighbor's window.

Week Six
The arms and legs continue to develop - These limbs are stretching out more and more. Later on you will be feeling those feet and elbows up close and personal right in your bladder!
Brain is growing well - Did you know that over the course of the remaining months that your baby's brain will develop over 100 billion neurons? This is just the beginning!
Lenses of the eyes appear - If you could catch a glimpse inside, you would notice your baby's appearance becoming increasing like a newborn's.
Nostrils are formed - The position of the nose seems to shift into its proper place as well. Soon, the nerves running from the nose to the brain appear.
Intestines grow - Initially these are actually located outside the baby's body within the umbilical cord.
Pancreas - Your baby is now equipped to deal with digestive enzymes and take on processing the insulin and glucagons the body needs to function.

Week Seven
Elbows form - Again, taking a peek inside you could see your baby's fascination with bending and flexing. Later you will swear you can enlist your child as the star of the next "Karate Kid" movie!
Fingers start to develop - These digits often become your baby's first toy!
Feet start to appear with tiny notches for the toes - It is fascinating that at less than a half inch, your little guy (or gal) already is leaving "footprints" on your heart!
Ears eyes and nose start to appear - Although they may resemble an alien life form, these all "shift" soon enough into a more normal appearance.
Intestines start to form in the umbilical cord - Did you know that initially the intestines are not formed inside your baby's body?
Teeth begin to develop under the gums - Thankfully, right now you won't be dealing with teething pain!

Week Eight
Cartilage and bones begin to form - At the end of this week your baby will have already completed 1/5th of the journey 'til his birthday!
The basic structure of the eye is well underway - The position is more "newborn" like already!
The tongue begins to develop
Intestines move out of the umbilical cord into the abdomen.
Body grows and makes room - Two months along and this little one is growing inside and out by leaps and bounds!
The fingers and toes have appeared but are webbed and short
Baby's length (crown to rump) is 0.61 inch (1.6cm) and weight is 0.04 ounce (1gm)

Week Nine
Baby has begun movement - While still too small for you to feel, your little one is wriggling, shifting, and dancing already! Makes you almost wish for a window to peek in whenever you want!
Most joints are formed now - and trust that your little one is practicing bending and flexing.
Fetus will curve its fingers around an object placed in the palm of its hand - This is amazing to see! At only nine weeks, if you happen to have an ultrasound, you may observe your infant fascinated by everything he or she can lay their fingers on (mainly other fingers, toes, ears and nose!
Fingerprints are already evident in the skin
Average size this week -- length 0.9 inch (2.3cm), weight 0.07 ounce (2gm)

Week Ten
Baby is now called a fetus in "medical terms". You, however, may have chosen the name "peanut," "angel," "jumping bean" or simply "miracle."
The most critical part of your infant's development is complete. Now you are headed into a period of rapid growth.
While a bit strange to envision, your baby's head is now about half its length - Soon the rest of the body's growth will catch up but this area is prepared to keep up with the rapid brain development!
Eyelids fuse shut and irises begin to develop - Eye color is also determined by this point.
Placenta begins to function this week or next - The placenta is the organ responsible for both the provision of nutrients along with the removal of waste to keep your baby growing strong!
Your baby will be about 1.22 inch long (3.1cm) and weigh 0.14 ounce (4gm) at the end of this week

Week Eleven
Nearly all structures and organs are formed and beginning to function.
Fingers and toes have separated - Take a glimpse at how incredibly precious your child's tiny feet are at this point.
Hair and nails begin to grow
The genitals begin to take on the proper gender characteristics - It will be just a few more weeks before your ultrasound can show if you are having a boy or a girl! Have you been dreaming of pink or blue?
Amniotic fluid begins to accumulate as the kidneys begin to function - This fluid, consisting primarily of water, helps provide a cushion for your baby while she's nestled within your womb.
The muscles in the intestinal walls begin to practice contractions that digest food.
Your baby is about 1.61 inches (4.1 cm) long and weighs 0.25 ounce (7gm).

Week Twelve
Vocal cords begin to form - While perhaps not quite ready to be introduced to the nearest opera stage, your infant will use these immediately following the moment of birth. Bet you can't wait to hear that first cry!
Those precious eyes begin to move closer together - Are you wondering if he will have mommy's crystal green eyes, daddy's laughing brown ones, or maybe out of the gene pool will emerge grandma's clear blue!
Ears shift to their normal place on the side of the head
Intestines move farther in to your child's body
His or her liver begins to function - Responsible for cleansing the blood, storing nutrients, and providing needed chemicals, this is an important event!
The pancreas begins to produce insulin
Guess what? Your baby's average size is now at a whopping length: 2.13 inches (5.4cm) and weight: 0.49 ounce (14gm)

Week Thirteen
Your infant is about 2.91 inches (7.4cm) and weighs around 0.81 ounce (23gm) - This is about the same weight as 4 quarters.
If you could peek in again you may spot your baby as he begins to practice inhaling and exhaling movements
Eyes and ears continue to move and develop
Baby's neck is getting longer, and the chin no longer is resting on his chest
Her hands are becoming more functional - Your baby may find it comforting to start playing with her fist.
At this point all nourishment is received from the placenta
On your next doctor visit you should be able to hear heartbeat with a Doppler by now - (Don't worry though if you can't, the heartbeat can be confirmed through U/S). Your baby's heartbeat is much rapider than your own and may remind you of the race towards birth that he is running!

Week Fourteen
Thyroid gland has matured and your baby begins producing hormones which will be used throughout his or her life.
In boys, the prostate gland develops
In girls, the ovaries move from the abdomen to the pelvis
Your little one may have learned to suck his thumb by this point!
Your child's bones are getting harder and stronger by the day!
Your baby's skin is very transparent still
Lanugo (very fine hair) covers the baby's body and will continue to grow until 26 weeks gestational age - Generally this will be shed prior to birth. Its purpose is to help protect baby's skin while in all that water!
Your baby is 3.42 inches (8.7cm) long and weighs about 1.52 ounces (43 grams) - approximately the weight of a letter!

 

[BVS]

It's a part of human life.

A part doesn't = a whole.

 

[80sU2isBest]

double post

 

[Justin24]

I know this has come up many times. But why is it more important to spare the life of a murderer instead of executing him? Where as a developing fetus (one with a head, body, arms, and legs formed less important and we add it to the pile of slaughter?

Don't we play god in both situations. We spare the DP on one but exterminate the life of an innocent?