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Old 02-02-2012, 11:39 AM   #201
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I don't know, personally I'd choose to be optimistic where 14-year-olds are concerned and focus on the fact that they've got time yet to come into their own in their thinking. Kids that age can be earnest crusaders for a cause (sometimes almost comically so), and it's partly because they're beginning to understand what it means to make a case for your beliefs in a way kids just a couple years younger don't, and that's exciting. But it's rare for their political/ethical/theological/etc. views to be noticeably different from their parents'; their newfound abilities tend to get applied to defending what's familiar, they haven't actually made their belief systems their own yet; that takes time. Her thinking could still change dramatically, her parents' probably never will. What she's arguing is sad to hear, yes, but I wouldn't hold a 14-year-old fully accountable for it yet.
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Old 02-02-2012, 01:47 PM   #202
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"It saddens me that there aren't more Christians here tonight," she said.
Hey, lady. I'm sure there were butt-loads of Christians there. But you probably didn't recognize them, since they were in support of same-sex marriage. They probably looked like a bunch of heathens to you.
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Old 02-02-2012, 02:08 PM   #203
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I think in another 30-50 years we'll have evolved on a social level where it won't matter about same sex marriage, and even christians will have changed enough to where they'll stop using the bible to call out that homosexuality as wrong/evil.....much like every christian chooses to ignore God's word of ordering anyone working on the Sabbath to be killed, or killing one's own family member if they speak of worshipping another God. Or on another level how slavery seems to be forgotten by most christians in their book.

So will homosexuality in time.
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Old 02-02-2012, 02:17 PM   #204
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I sincerely hope so, BEAL.

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Originally Posted by corianderstem View Post
Hey, lady. I'm sure there were butt-loads of Christians there. But you probably didn't recognize them, since they were in support of same-sex marriage. They probably looked like a bunch of heathens to you.
I was going to say, how does one explain those people, then?

Wonder what Jesus "Love thy neighbor" Christ would think about this issue, too?

As for that thing from that 14 year old...uh...wow.
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Old 02-02-2012, 02:49 PM   #205
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See that's one of my MANY, NUMERIOUS, INFINITE, issues with religion

We all are here 2000+ years later wondering what the son of God said. Times have changed, people and social norms have changed, yet we still clamour to a book and words written ages ago.

So would Jesus really still agree with the doctrine of the bronze age, or would even God itself be more evolved to how our culture works today? (my answer is there is no God, so therefore us humans have been responsible 100% for accepting lifestyles and gradually eliminating hateful bigotry, some more slowly than others)

It's going to be painful, but the next couple of decades we'll eventually get rid of this barbarian mindset, and then we'll focus on the next pointless social outrage!
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Old 02-02-2012, 06:00 PM   #206
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Yes a 14 year old's thinking can still evolve and change, of course it can. The world would be a much more depressing place if it couldn't, if it didn't.

Honestly at this point I can't even remember being 14, but I do believe that I was a much different person. What makes it really sad to me is that she's probably trying to please her mother more than anything, and I think it will be very tough for her when she has to live and exist and work among gay people and people who don't think that way. Even worse for her will be when she tries to separate from her mother and to think independently.
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Old 02-02-2012, 09:23 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by BEAL View Post
I think in another 30-50 years we'll have evolved on a social level where it won't matter about same sex marriage, and even christians will have changed enough to where they'll stop using the bible to call out that homosexuality as wrong/evil.....much like every christian chooses to ignore God's word of ordering anyone working on the Sabbath to be killed, or killing one's own family member if they speak of worshipping another God. Or on another level how slavery seems to be forgotten by most christians in their book.

So will homosexuality in time.
I'm not so sure about it.

Here in Europe we're watching a very fast and dangerous regression in the mentalities exactly like in the 1930's beggining of fascist and authoritary regimes.
For example, this week, the new right-wing spanish government decided to get back with the abortion law (approved 10/12 years ago I guess) and that ended criminalisation and stigmatization of women who had to make abortions. The new law gets back to the early standards.
Another example is the freedom of speech and freedom of press which has been severely threatned in Hungary and there are new and strong sings ofit again in Portugal (and I've heard about it in Czech Republic too, for example, not sure).

Mariano Rajoy said that he wants to end the gay-marriage law in Spain too, which means that the same state that recognized the marriage between two people, now it wouldn't recognize anymore.
And I wouldn't be surprised if the present right-wing portuguese government did the same here.

Social progresses, at least here, are never granted, there are always periods of heavy regression, like constant a come-and-go thing.
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Old 02-03-2012, 09:11 AM   #208
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I should state/clarify that I was mostly talking about the US in regards to this social issue.

I am finding it facinating and more concerning that Europe is actually regressing back to a facism in order to deal with a lot of the religious and social upheaval that seems to be going on.
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Old 02-03-2012, 09:40 AM   #209
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I'm not so sure about it.

Here in Europe we're watching a very fast and dangerous regression in the mentalities exactly like in the 1930's beggining of fascist and authoritary regimes.
For example, this week, the new right-wing spanish government decided to get back with the abortion law (approved 10/12 years ago I guess) and that ended criminalisation and stigmatization of women who had to make abortions. The new law gets back to the early standards.
Another example is the freedom of speech and freedom of press which has been severely threatned in Hungary and there are new and strong sings ofit again in Portugal (and I've heard about it in Czech Republic too, for example, not sure).

Mariano Rajoy said that he wants to end the gay-marriage law in Spain too, which means that the same state that recognized the marriage between two people, now it wouldn't recognize anymore.
And I wouldn't be surprised if the present right-wing portuguese government did the same here.

Social progresses, at least here, are never granted, there are always periods of heavy regression, like constant a come-and-go thing.



good points. i think North American -- and especially in the US -- liberals tend to romanticize Europe as a bastion of liberalism, and to some extent that is true. we don't see the kind of influence of religion in Europe as we do in the US, and it appears as if "social issues" aren't nearly the identity flashpoint as they are over here. however, Europeans are in many ways *culturally* more conservative, in the ways that Americans are religiously more conservative. i think one becomes the same as the other, in practice, and it's great to get a more continental perspective as FYM is *so* heavily North American (with the occasional UK/Ireland/Aussie/Kiwi perspective).
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Old 02-03-2012, 09:45 AM   #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BEAL View Post
I should state/clarify that I was mostly talking about the US in regards to this social issue.

I am finding it facinating and more concerning that Europe is actually regressing back to a facism in order to deal with a lot of the religious and social upheaval that seems to be going on.
The religious issue, forgive me for what I'm gonna say, is a fraud.
It's an argument of the Catholic predominance and dominance over others. Every one knows that Europe always was multi-religion (specially in the East, North and eastern mediterranean).

Europe is dealing with a house on fire which has nothing to do with religious issues. Europe's nightmare is the need to rewrite the Social State/Welfare construction because of today's and future's demography, as well as the rebirth of old mutual hatreds, old stigmas, old preconceptions against each other, old imperial/authoritary tendencies that never really died... Mix it with hate and rebellion in Eastern Europe against the old russian domination of communism, leading neo-fascist and extreme-right movements to gain lots of power over there. Mix it with the Chicago School that was a failure in South America and that led to dictatorships and extreme poverty from the 1960's to the 1980's... And here you have the closest (and resumed) photograph of today's Europe.
It's only History repeating itself, nothing more.
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Old 02-03-2012, 09:55 AM   #211
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good points. i think North American -- and especially in the US -- liberals tend to romanticize Europe as a bastion of liberalism, and to some extent that is true. we don't see the kind of influence of religion in Europe as we do in the US, and it appears as if "social issues" aren't nearly the identity flashpoint as they are over here. however, Europeans are in many ways *culturally* more conservative, in the ways that Americans are religiously more conservative. i think one becomes the same as the other, in practice, and it's great to get a more continental perspective as FYM is *so* heavily North American (with the occasional UK/Ireland/Aussie/Kiwi perspective).
I think you're right. Europe is not as socially liberal (we have to be careful when we use "liberal") as many think.
About the Church influence in conservative behaviours, it depends on the country.

For example, it's been said that this regression in the spanish laws that Rajoy is doing has been having a huge pressure of the Catholic Church. The same in Portugal for the end of national holidays - yes, the portuguese government ended with the commemoration of the day that Republic was implanted, with the justification that we need to be more productive (forgetting that we're some of those who work more hours per week) - it had negociation with the Catholic Church.
In Portugal and Spain, the influence of the church depends on the government. It has less influence when the PS (Portugal) and the PSOE (Spain) are in the Government, but it has waaaay more influence (and they serve as justification for many things) when PPD/PSD+CDS/PP (Portugal) and PP (Spain) are there.

Another example is Greece. When a new Government comes, the cerimony has the presence and the guide of representants of the Orthodox Church (see? not catholic, but still conservative).

But, for instance, countries like France, or Belgium or the scandinavian countries don't have half of the influence the religion has here.
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Old 02-03-2012, 01:57 PM   #212
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Pastor: Boycott Starbucks Over Gay Marriage - KGMI-AM

Pastor Steven Andrew of USA Christian Ministries predicted that the Seattle-based coffee giant could lose 80%of its customers if Christians get their coffee elsewhere.

ELL OH ELL. Good luck with that, buddy.
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Old 02-06-2012, 10:48 AM   #213
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this is pretty much the most satisfying demolition of the anti-SSM forces i've come across.

Up Close for Feb. 5, 2012 | Video | 7online


important to watch because it also touches on the birth control and health care issues regarding the Catholic Church in other threads.
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Old 02-06-2012, 12:46 PM   #214
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That just makes me angry.
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Old 02-06-2012, 12:50 PM   #215
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it's good to argue with idiots like Brian Brown in order to show people that they are, in fact, idiots.
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Old 02-06-2012, 12:59 PM   #216
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I'm glad that he was able to keep his composure and make rational arguments the entire time.

That lady calling it a great debate was so grating.
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Old 02-06-2012, 01:08 PM   #217
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if you want to get mad, read this:

One Town's War on Gay Teens | Politics News | Rolling Stone

Quote:
In April, Justin came home from school and found his mother at the top of the stairs, tending to the saltwater fish tank. "Mom," he said tentatively, "a kid told me at school today I'm gonna go to hell because I'm gay."

"That's not true. God loves everybody," his mom replied. "That kid needs to go home and read his Bible."

Justin shrugged and smiled, then retreated to his room. It had been a hard day: the annual "Day of Truth" had been held at school, an evangelical event then-sponsored by the anti-gay ministry Exodus International, whose mission is to usher gays back to wholeness and "victory in Christ" by converting them to heterosexuality. Day of Truth has been a font of controversy that has bounced in and out of the courts; its legality was affirmed last March, when a federal appeals court ruled that two Naperville, Illinois, high school students' Day of Truth T-shirts reading BE HAPPY, NOT GAY were protected by their First Amendment rights. (However, the event, now sponsored by Focus on the Family, has been renamed "Day of Dialogue.") Local churches had been touting the program, and students had obediently shown up at Anoka High School wearing day of truth T-shirts, preaching in the halls about the sin of homosexuality. Justin wanted to brush them off, but was troubled by their proselytizing. Secretly, he had begun to worry that maybe he was an abomination, like the Bible said.

Justin was trying not to care what anyone else thought and be true to himself. He surrounded himself with a bevy of girlfriends who cherished him for his sweet, sunny disposition. He played cello in the orchestra, practicing for hours up in his room, where he'd covered one wall with mementos of good times: taped-up movie-ticket stubs, gum wrappers, Christmas cards. Justin had even briefly dated a boy, a 17-year-old he'd met online who attended a nearby high school. The relationship didn't end well: The boyfriend had cheated on him, and compounding Justin's hurt, his coming out had earned Justin hateful Facebook messages from other teens – some from those he didn't even know – telling him he was a fag who didn't deserve to live. At least his freshman year of high school was nearly done. Only three more years to go.

He wondered how he would ever make it.
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Old 02-06-2012, 01:22 PM   #218
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Holy hell.

I'm really pleased that, despite going to a conservative university, homosexuality is almost universally accepted here. It comforts me to know that it really is simply an issue of older people being bigots. This issue is simply our generation's civil rights thing. It's not political so much as it's generational. This campus is very divided politically when it comes to issues of the economy or foreign policy. But not gay rights.
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Old 02-07-2012, 12:07 PM   #219
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Yay!

Congrats, California. Welcome to the equality club. We hope you enjoy your stay.
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Old 02-07-2012, 12:08 PM   #220
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My Twitter is saying Proposition 8 has been declared unconstitutional and I am thrilled. This offsets the misery Tom Corbett put me in this morning.
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