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Old 03-07-2002, 05:33 PM   #21
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can't we all just get along???
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Old 03-07-2002, 05:36 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by Achtung Bubba:
When he was governor of Missouri, seven convicted killers were made incapable of killing again.
I love our "pro-life" / "pro-death" hypocrites.

Quote:
He's in favor of limiting the amount of times a killer can appeal his sentence, limiting it to something more reasonable, allowing the victim's family the chance to move on.
Essentially, he's limiting the due process guaranteed in the Constitution, the only protections against putting an innocent man to death. If I remember right, does Jesus not say in the Bible that it is better for ten guilty men to go free than for one innocent person to be wrongly imprisoned?

Quote:
He's in favor of severely punishing those who traffic large amounts of illegal and dangerous drugs to America's children and teenagers.
Question:

When Ashcroft wanted stronger sentencing for those "convicted of drug-related offences," was that for just dealers or also users? If it was for users, then I'm verily disappointed. "Imprisonment" isn't going to do anything to solve the drug problem.

As for dealers, yes, imprisonment is a positive option, although Tim Allen, comedian and star of "Home Improvement," would have received a life sentence without parole had these laws been in effect then. I think there needs to be more sentencing applicable to the offender, rather than the crime. Some can be rehabilatated, and should, but some obviously cannot be.

Quote:
On the issue of energy, he believes that America is entirely too dependent on ambivalent states for our supply of oil.
Our only viable option is conversion to hydrogen fuel and increased fuel conservation standards in the meantime. SUVs do NOT need to consume as much gas as they do.

"Drilling" in Alaska requires at least 10 years of exploration before the actual drilling. By that time, with as much progress that has already been made with hydrogen fuel-cell technology (BMW made a working prototype that cruises at 150 mph), we can finally rid ourselves of the shackles of oil and OPEC. Hydrogen fuel can easily be extracted from water, which could even mean extracting the humidity from the air.

The oil that will be needed in other applications, aside from automobiles, can likely be extracted and be more than sufficient with existing American oil sites.

Bush has pledged a conversion to fuel-cell technology, so let's now hope he was serious and just not spouting more inane rhetoric he has no intentions of fulfilling.

Melon

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"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time

[This message has been edited by melon (edited 03-07-2002).]
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Old 03-07-2002, 06:09 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon:


I love our "pro-life" / "pro-death" hypocrites.
Melon, this is a meatball, and you know it.

In exactly one of these cases, the entity whose life is being terminated has been found guilty, in a court of law, of some heinous crime. This is not to say that there aren't other issues with abortion and the death penalty that need to be addressed in a reasonable debate, but a fetus and a convicted criminal are clearly not on the same footing here.

[This message has been edited by speedracer (edited 03-07-2002).]
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Old 03-07-2002, 06:31 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon:
The number of states that have legalized the death penalty.

Melon

We're talking about Kervorkian related issues, not the death penalty.

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Old 03-07-2002, 06:32 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by speedracer:
Melon, this is a meatball, and you know it.

In exactly one of these cases, the entity whose life is being terminated has been found guilty, in a court of law, of some heinous crime. This is not to say that there aren't other issues with abortion and the death penalty that need to be addressed in a reasonable debate, but a fetus and a convicted criminal are clearly not on the same footing here.
And, in a court of law (Roe v. Wade, 1973 (?)), it was found that a mother has the right to terminate her pregnancy, hence nullifying any claims that the unborn are worthy of legal protection. Hence, under law, an unborn child is just as protected under the law as a death-row inmate: very little.

We can't start playing subjective law games. I'm "pro-life" in every sense of it. I'm anti-abortion and anti-death penalty. To me, along with the position of my church, anyone who claims to be "pro-life" and "pro-death penalty" is a hypocrite.

All people are worthy of life, but that doesn't mean we need to let these dangerous people go free. Life in prison without chance of parole is more than sufficient to contain these people from hurting anyone ever again. And don't talk about "wasting taxpayer money," because we've done plenty of that imprisoning drug users and the mentally ill (thank you, Reagan ), who need treatment, not prison terms. Solve this problem, and we'll save lots and lots of money (an estimated 1/3 of the prison population is drug users).

Melon

------------------
"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time

[This message has been edited by melon (edited 03-07-2002).]
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Old 03-07-2002, 06:33 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
Secondly, he blocked the appointment of a black judge - so freaking what. The judge has to be of some ethnicity; white, black, Asian, Hispanic, etc. It just so happened that the guy's skin happened to be black. That was not the reason he was blocked. If the man was Italian, would you be screaming racism?

Yes, and every Government official who was against Supreme Ct. Justice Clarence Thomas are Racists as well.

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Old 03-07-2002, 06:34 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lemonite:
We're talking about Kervorkian related issues, not the death penalty.
I see no difference between the two in terms of morality. Ashcroft, however, seems to decide who is worthy of life and death. How godly of him.

Melon

------------------
"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time
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Old 03-07-2002, 06:35 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by Diemen:
You know, I am really getting sick of every damn thing in this forum being turned into a liberal vs. conservative thing. It's pathetic that the only points can be made here is by pinning it to one side or the other and then bashing the opposite side.[/i][/B]
Blame it all on the vomit Shat upon the computer screen by Fizzing.

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[This message has been edited by Lemonite (edited 03-07-2002).]
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Old 03-07-2002, 10:02 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by Diemen:
You know, I am really getting sick of every damn thing in this forum being turned into a liberal vs. conservative thing. It's pathetic that the only points can be made here is by pinning it to one side or the other and then bashing the opposite side.
If you paid attention to my first three words in the first post, you would notice that my reason for posting this has absolutely nothing to do with what political party Ashcroft is affiliated with. If Bill Clinton or Janet Reno or Al Gore or Newt Gingrich sang a song that cheesy after a speech, it'd creep me out just as much as Ashcroft singing it.
All
Politics
Aside
Diemen, get off your high horse. I know darned well that you said "all politics aside". I wasn't responding to you, and that should be evident by the fact that it wasn't YOU I quoted! The person I quoted was teh one who started the partisanship, taking a couple of stabs at Conservative Republicans. Am I not allowed to fight back?
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Old 03-08-2002, 02:22 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees:
I know - and I did acknowledge that I don't agree with Ashcroft's politics so if you're looking for someone to give a positive description of him then it's not going to be me. However - I say anti-choice because I believe that to describe those who oppose abortion as 'pro-life' implies that those who support a women's right to choose are pro-abortion. That's simply not the case - to be pro-choice does not mean you believe abortion is a solution to every unplanned pregnancy, it just means you believe that women should be trusted to make their own decisions about abortion - all options should be available to them and they should be free to make their own choices about what happens to their bodies.
It was a minor complaint, and not even one directed at you personally. It's just, honestly, I think the language of politics has been skewed in support of one side of the issue: on the surface, "gun control" and "campaign finance reform" (to use a phrase you personally haven't used) are things that everyone should support, and to a degree, most do: many in the NRA believe that criminals shouldn't have guns, and most how oppose the Shays-Meehan bill support changes of some kind.

But when phrases like "gun control" are used for specific plans, it makes those who oppose those plans (sometimes for good reason) appear to be inherently on the wrong side of the issue.
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Old 03-08-2002, 02:27 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by Melon:
I love our "pro-life" / "pro-death" hypocrites.
Show me a fetus guilty of homicide, and I'll support abortion.
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Old 03-08-2002, 03:09 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by sulawesigirl4:
can't we all just get along???
Sorry Rodney, that would go against the history of this Forum!

I dont like Ashcroft. Basically, I disagree with him politically but don't care to debate the issue, we have The Melon/Bubba/Lemonite machine already rolling so that's good enough. I am sure if I did I'd be labeled something or another as usually happens around here.
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Old 03-09-2002, 12:08 AM   #33
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I thought Bush sang at the end of his speeches he reads off that telepromter. Asscroft might be starting a trend.
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Old 03-09-2002, 01:30 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by Achtung Bubba:
Show me a fetus guilty of homicide, and I'll support abortion.
This isn't even important. My stance against the death penalty is strictly Biblical:

"Then the scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery and made her stand in the middle. They said to him, 'Teacher, this woman was caught in the very act of committing adultery. Now in the law, Moses commanded us to stone such women. So what do you say?' They said this to test him, so that they could have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and began to write on the ground with his finger. But when they continued asking him, he straightened up and said to them, 'Let the one among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.' Again he bent down and wrote on the ground. And in response, they went away one by one, beginning with the elders. So he was left alone with the woman before him. Then Jesus straightened up and said to her, 'Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?' She replied, 'No one, sir.' Then Jesus said, 'Neither do I condemn you. Go, (and) from now on do not sin any more.'" -- John 8:3-11

Prisoners guilty of murder definitely deserve to be separated from society, and we have a prison system that can do such a thing. Life imprisonment without parole is what many of these murders deserve.

But to sit up on a pulpit condemning abortion, while also supporting the death penalty, is hypocritical to me. Killing someone knowingly is wrong, also denying prisoners the right to repent. State-sponsored murder, just because it is socially acceptable, doesn't mean it is any more wrong than the murder that the criminal committed.

Separating them from society is one thing--such a thing I support. Killing prisoners because we, as humans, have deemed them unworthy of life is the exact same thing as abortion. I will not cast the first stone.

Melon

------------------
"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time
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