have they gone too far?

[popkidu2]

For those of you in the US who have seen the most recent Victoria Secret ads on tv...do you think they've gone too far?

I'm a pretty liberal guy....I like my women, but those ads look like soft porn movies you see on skinemax or showtime late night. It blows me away that they actually made these ads, and that companies are willing to sell ad time to air them. I don't have a problem with scantily clad women prancing around for a victoria secret ad, but I think the context of the ad makes it too cheap. They should be a bit more classy imo.



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I can't change the world, but I can change the world in me.

[80sU2isBest]

I think they've gone too far. It's bad for women (who are "objectified"), teenage girls (who feel they must look like that, or they are "ugly") and for men (who try to keep away from temptation to lust, because these commercials come on without warning)

[Miss MacPhisto]

Havent seen 'em...Wouldnt star in anything like that though, despite my reputation.
I dont understand why women would want to do stuff like that, unless you truly are desperate for money.
Maybe they think that there are tons of inteligent,kind, and great looking men that are out there watching them, but they forget about the idiots, the criminals, the losers,a nd the hideous types that are out there too.
Its just pointless. But then, i hate most commercials these days,lol. Too stupid for my tastes.

[Peaseblossom]

Lighten up, guys. They're just commercials, and from what I've heard from my guy friends, they've done exactly what they're supposed to- gotten tons of men to want to by Vicky's merchandise for the holidays. Sure they're a little risque', but sex sells, and until our culture is driven by something else, commercials like these will continue to be made.

Commence attacking me if you wish.

[Rono]

Hmm, sounds like a MTV program.

[WildHonee]

OMG I saw what I think was the newest one Monday while I was watching "Boston Public"

I was TRAUMATIZED. It was like "my BROTHERS will see this. My FATHER will see this...random MEN on the street will see this!" Now I'm only 17 but the whole idea of it all is REALLY discomforting. Is that a word?

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~*Mona*~
"It's not what you're dreaming
But what you're gonna do.
It's not where you're born.
It's where you belong.
It's not how weak
But what will make you strong."

[DoctorGonzo]

Damn, I don't watch that much TV, but hell! I need to start doing it more to catch this mythical ad!

[foray]

What happens in the ad?

foray

[Achtung_Bebe]

Yeah I saw one of the newest commercials and thought they had, ummm, gotten closer to the boundary. It's just non-stop flashes of cleavage. Yeah sex sells and everything but I think portraying their product in this way does more bad than good. Psychologically speaking... as in what image people feel they have to uphold etc.

[U2Bama]

If a Baptist minister were on here complaining about the ads, people would be complaining about "censorship" and calling him a nazi.

[This message has been edited by U2Bama (edited 11-02-2001).]

[CannibalisticArtist]

it's about time they start desensatising people to sex. better than being already desensetised to violence.

[Spiral_Staircase]

Cannibalistic Artist, are you serious?
It's about time "they" start desensitizing people to sex?? Well I would disagree with the idea that we need to be "desensitized" to sex, but we needn't argue about that, because that is not what this ad is doing. I don't know about you, but the last time I had sex, it didn't look like that. These ads are about illusion, these women look "even better than the real thing", it's an impossible ideal that puts images into people's heads, both men and women, that are entirely unrealistic. I think that's harmful. I'm not saying everything unrealistic is harmful, but things like this have a tendency to make men say "I wish my wife looked like that" and women say "I need to try and look like that" and that seems to result in unhealthy things very often.

[MysteryGirl]

HEY! I have an idea. Show those ads to osama bin laden and his brainwashed drones. That'll put an end to them!

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"You're dangerous...'cause you're honest"

[Diemen]

Originally posted by WildHonee:
OMG I saw what I think was the newest one Monday while I was watching "Boston Public"

I was TRAUMATIZED. It was like "my BROTHERS will see this. My FATHER will see this...random MEN on the street will see this!" Now I'm only 17 but the whole idea of it all is REALLY discomforting. Is that a word?

You can't be serious. Traumatized??

So what about those Herbal Essences commercials? Those actually simulate orgasms, so that must make you scream in anguish.

Here's a little tip for you. Your brothers, your father, and random men on the street will have/have had so-called "impure" thoughts regardless of what commercials are on TV.

Is that what things are coming to? That some flaunting of sexuality actually traumatizes people? Why is any degree of obvious sexuality regarded as dirty in this culture? It's little wonder teenagers with raging hormones are so confused, we tell them that feeling sexy and seductive is wrong and sinful.

Come on now, people, I think we're overreacting just a bit. What does Victoria's Secret sell? Lingerie, undergarments, perfumes, lotions, etc - things that are supposed to make a woman feel sexy. And lets face it, things that are intended to get a reaction out of the opposite sex, as well. So it's not your tidy, safe little company that isn't going to offend people who have become so blinded by uber-morality and religious dogma that they think any sexuality is inherently wrong and dirty. You shouldn't be ashamed to feel sexy, and that's the message Victoria's Secret has been pushing for quite some time. Now maybe they push the envelope a little bit, but is that so bad? It's a little suggestive, yes, but then again, so are their products. Why make something that goes under clothing look so good, anyway? Oh yes, because it's supposed to make you feel sexy.

The idea of sex and sexuality has been vilified long enough. I think it's time for some people to move past the Puritan view that sex and sexuality is inherently dirty and shouldn't be fun or enjoyable. Maybe if we didn't make such a big deal out of it, people wouldn't think so much of something as silly as a suggestive TV commercial.

And as far as the commercials being bad for men who are trying to resist temptation, if you can't watch that commercial without falling into a fit of lust, then I really think you've got more things to worry about than what's on TV.

[CannibalisticArtist]

Originally posted by Spiral_Staircase:
Cannibalistic Artist, are you serious?
It's about time "they" start desensitizing people to sex?? Well I would disagree with the idea that we need to be "desensitized" to sex, but we needn't argue about that, because that is not what this ad is doing. I don't know about you, but the last time I had sex, it didn't look like that. These ads are about illusion, these women look "even better than the real thing", it's an impossible ideal that puts images into people's heads, both men and women, that are entirely unrealistic. I think that's harmful. I'm not saying everything unrealistic is harmful, but things like this have a tendency to make men say "I wish my wife looked like that" and women say "I need to try and look like that" and that seems to result in unhealthy things very often.

well i agree with you on your point about portraying the women as being better than the real thing, and unrealistic, but i would have to stick to my belief with the desensetizing to sex bit, even though i was exaggerating. have you seen what european ads are like? people there seem to have no problem with full frontal nudity on public television, their entire view of sex is completely different, but they do object to senseless violence. people here in the US do the exact opposite, and i don't know about you, but i like to make love not war

[80sU2isBest]

Diemen, my views on this are based mainly on my Christian beliefs, that is true. But you have failed to answer my other two points:

1)These commercials "objectify" women, treating women as nothing but sexual objects
2)Teenaged girls see the images that the media trys to sell as "the perfect woman", and hate themselves if they don't look like that themselves. It's ridiculous

As far as you ridiculing the "puritanical" beliefs of myself and others regarding sexuality...well, you've got to argue with God on that one. I just believe what He says. And believe me, God does not like this kind of stuff. And yes, I do know what God says about this - it's in His word. God wants his people to live pure lives, and that's not helped by having some half-dressed woman dancing around on TV. And you dismiss my idea of men and temptation in your condescending tone, but if you saw it from my point of view, you'd see that it's not some little thing. What about the man who is trying to break free from a pornography habit? He sees one of those commercials and the temptation hits again. What about the man whose marriage is on the rocks and he and his wife aren't having normal sexual relations? he sees one of those commercials and that increases his temptation to go find it someplace else. There are countless other scenarios, I'm sure. Face reality. The way our society is headed - free sex, no shame, no MORALS, is not good for us at all. Look where we were as a nation pre-sexual revolution as compared to post-sexual revolution and you'll see what I'm talking about. And I'm damn tired of people who actually still believe in moral values being ridiculed for their beliefs. I've decided that life is too short, and this nation has gotten too far away from what God intended to just sit by and say nothing.

[This message has been edited by 80sU2isBest (edited 11-06-2001).]

[Diemen]

Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
Diemen, my views on this are based mainly on my Christian beliefs, that is true. But you have failed to answer my other two points:

1)These commercials "objectify" women, treating women as nothing but sexual objects
2)Teenaged girls see the images that the media trys to sell as "the perfect woman", and hate themselves if they don't look like that themselves. It's ridiculous

As far as you ridiculing the "puritanical" beliefs of myself and others regarding sexuality...well, you've got to argue with God on that one. I just believe what He says. And believe me, God does not like this kind of stuff. And yes, I do know what God says about this - it's in His word. God wants his people to live pure lives, and that's not helped by having some half-dressed woman dancing around on TV. And you dismiss my idea of men and temptation in your condescending tone, but if you saw it from my point of view, you'd see that it's not some little thing. What about the man who is trying to break free from a pornography habit? He sees one of those commercials and the temptation hits again. What about the man whose marriage is on the rocks and he and his wife aren't having normal sexual relations? he sees one of those commercials and that increases his temptation to go find it someplace else. There are countless other scenarios, I'm sure. Face reality. The way our society is headed - free sex, no shame, no MORALS, is not good for us at all. Look where we were as a nation pre-sexual revolution as compared to post-sexual revolution and you'll see what I'm talking about. And I'm damn tired of people who actually still believe in moral values being ridiculed for their beliefs. I've decided that life is too short, and this nation has gotten too far away from what God intended to just sit by and say nothing.

First of all, I admit to playing the devil's advocate a bit on this topic. I don't entirely agree with the marketing tactics in these commercials, but I also don't view it as THAT terrible of a thing.

Wait a minute, I never said I believed in free sex, no shame, no morals. And these commercials don't promote that. I still believe in moral values and for you to suggest that I'm morally corrupt just because I don't become squeamish at the sight of a lingerie ad is a little iffy. What about the monogamous, married couples that use Victoria's Secret? Is it wrong for them to act sexy without shame? But I guess for people who are so uncomfortable with human sexuality that they can't stand a commercial that shows some skin, then I could see how one might assume that Victoria's Secret is promoting "Free sex, no shame, no morals."

I tend to agree with Cannibalistic artist. There are commercials in Europe that show full-frontal nudity, and people don't think twice about them, because they weren't brought up to fear sexuality and so it doesn't pose a problem. I don't see it as a morality issue, I see it as an issue of organized religion trying to erase and deny human instincts (yikes, did I just say that?).

In regards to these commercials objectifying women, yes, they are guilty of that, but it's funny how I never see anybody complaining of commercials where guys are objectified. You act as if these women have no control over what they're doing and they're being victimized in the commercial. These women know what the commercials look like - they know what they're getting into. And maybe, just maybe, they feel a little empowered to know that they can cause so much commotion just by showing some skin.

And you assume that all teenage girls are incredibly insecure and feel the need to try and be like everything they see on TV. I really doubt the majority of teenage girls who see these commercials are going to hate themselves if they don't look like that. These commercials aren't that powerful. Some teenagers might, but I think that's more a reflection on parental issues today.

I could get into a much bigger argument on the God side of this (His word was written 2 millenia ago and was directed towards a much simpler culture - I don't think everything written in the Bible can be applied to modern day, but anyway), but I know that it will cause much dissention, bitterness, anger and bickering.

In spite of what I've said, I do respect your beliefs, 80s, I just think you're making a mountain out of a molehill.

[Johnny Swallow]

All I have to say is that the ads are effective...wow.

[Peaseblossom]

Let me preface this by saying I can respect all beliefs expressed in this thread. I just happen to feel very passionate about our freedoms in this country. Free press is one of those.

1. Dittos to everything Diemen said. Man, he's perfect. *sigh*

2.

Originally posted by Johnny Swallow:
All I have to say is that the ads are effective...wow.

As someone who works in marketing, it looks like the company has accomplished their goals.

3. As for girls "hating themselves," In my case, Victoria's Secret has actually helped with that. I don't have the perfect body, far from it...However, slipping into something silky and pretty, and a dash of vanilla laced perfume makes me feel sexy, something that doesn't happen very often. Oh, perhaps I've said too much. I wouldn't want to send anyone into fits of lust.

[This message has been edited by Peaseblossom (edited 11-06-2001).]

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by Peaseblossom:
As for girls "hating themselves," In my case, Victoria's Secret has actually helped with that. I don't have the perfect body, far from it...However, slipping into something silky and pretty, and a dash of vanilla laced perfume makes me feel sexy, something that doesn't happen very often. Oh, perhaps I've said too much. I wouldn't want to send anyone into fits of lust.
[This message has been edited by Peaseblossom (edited 11-06-2001).]

I'm not talking about the effects of the products that Victoria's Secret sells. I'm talking about the effects the advertising has on people, and I thought that my point is obvious. So, your point about how Victoria's Secret products make you feel has zero - nada- to do with this debate. the truth is that scantily clad women with perfect bodies does indeed set an incredibly high standard of how women should look in our society, and the fact is that many girls feel they are ugly if they don't look "perfect". If you try to argue that that is not the case, you are wrong. I've seen it many times, even in my own neice, who is a beautiful girl;, but considers herself fat.