Mad Men II: A Man For All Seasons

[Irvine511]

Riding her. Stupid smartphone.

 

[LemonMelon]

I can't decide how to feel about Ginsberg. There's a creeping mania in there that I can't put my finger on. He's damn good at what he does, but seems almost impenetrable on a personal level. I'm sure the writers want to keep him around and they're giving us a little at a time so they make it last.

The scene where we were introduced to his father and Ginsberg remained silent the whole time really creeped me out. What hath Peggy wrought?

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

It seemed like everyone was betraying someone in that episode. Lane betrayed Joan too, because he wants the Jaguar money in order to cover up what he stole for his kid's schooling. He ultimately just went along with the whole thing, honestly I can't even remember how vocal he was about it. I have to watch that episode again asap.

 

[LemonMelon]

It was a little unsettling how quickly they pimped Joan after the initial incredulity. They just reduced it to a figure and she was off.

Of course, no figure could sway Peggy. And I think that's the reason for Joan's envious look at the end. Childless Peggy can still afford her integrity.

 

[Irvine511]

I think that's why I had a similar Sopranos-esque despair. They really threw her to the wolves

But then, she could have said no. Right?

Or could she have? What is her responsibility in this whole thing.

And Don knows, right? Can't remember.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

Don knows what, that she slept with the Jaguar guy? Yes he knows, after she came in for the partners meeting.

She could have said no and stayed in her same job, but there's her child and her sleazy rapist husband. She kicked him out but I don't think a divorce ever happened. And the father of her kid who also just went along with the whole thing. And her mother (Don called her her "friend" and Joan didn't even correct him). Maybe she feels trapped by people and by everything in her life, and that was her desperate attempt for some sort off empowerment-as crazy as that sounds.

 

[joyfulgirl]

Peggy's response to Don's kiss was absolutely sincere. She had really mixed emotions about the whole thing yet it was clear she had to go. I was in a similar situation with my first job. The person who hired me took me under her wing and taught me everything I knew and adored me, at the same time that she held me back and treated me like shit way more than she should have. So when I resigned, she was so hurt she literally never spoke to me again. I was grateful to her, but I had to move on for my own self-respect. This also happened to be in advertising in NYC, and she was the "Don" character except more like Meryl Streep in Devil Wears Prada.

As for the pact with Ken, I think she just had been burned so many times she didn't have faith in any of them and figured she just had to look out for herself and play the game the way the big boys do. Also, she may try to bring him over to the new agency in future episodes.

 

[deep]

I have to watch that episode again asap.

yes, watch it again
I watched it a second time late last night

Joan really is not a victim here, this is probably the best thing (career, financially) that ever happened to her.

I do believe the whole concept strains credulity, though

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

Joan really is not a victim here, this is probably the best thing (career, financially) that ever happened to her.

Obviously she could have said no and told them all to go to hell. I do think she's a victim of circumstance, including the pathetic fact that it was her first "opportunity for advancement". When has she had any others? Like I said earlier, she's got the brains and the guts. They all know it too. That's what's really sad about it. It's a whole thread woven through the episode-including Megan being all excited about her audition in Boston and being told to turn around in her short dress. By three guys.

Finally something beautiful you can own.

 

[deep]

I almost quoted this post, because I agree 100% with what you wrote.

What was Don for throwing money in her face? Out of all his bad moments that might have been his worst.

The smirk on Peggy's face had zero to do with being a "bitch", it had to do with how far she's come and how far she's going to go. On her own merits.

Yes, to me Don and Peggy is a father/daughter type of relationship- and that's why she's actually hurt by what he does. The not crying part of the money incident was her turning point, I think.

the fact that Don would do that to her at this stage was despicable, at the very least it should have been followed by a sincere apology

the smirk on her face was her realizing the negative crap she was leaving and the great opportunity ahead.

This is 1967, work place bias is terrible, I still believe there is sexism today, but back then it was just awful. I could tell some first hand stories of what I saw in the 70s when I was working teenager.

Megan's audition? this was a stage play. The producers were looking for a certain type. I can't fault that. If she it was a radio drama and they had her do a spin, that would be different.

Watch it again, pay close attention to Pete, Joan and Lane.
this bothered Pete more than has been noted and Joan a lot less.

 

[corianderstem]

Peggy did betray Ken Cosgeove, though. Didn't they have a pact?

What did she say to him earlier in the episode, when she was having a drink after Don threw money at her? Didn't she say something that was, in not so many words, "Fuck your pact"?

I can't decide how to feel about Ginsberg.

I know. I hated it when he said "She just comes and goes as she pleases" when Megan came to "fetch" Don for a quickie. (That was this week, right? Was it last week?) I couldn't figure out what he meant by that, like why are you getting so upset? The boss' wife can't come to the office to speak to her husband? (For all they knew, she had to talk to him, not go boff him.)

Or was that supposed to tie into the idea he came up with for the campaign? I was glad at Don's reaction at that pitch - it was pretty damned great. I was worried he'd take credit, or say it was awful and then use it anyway.

 

[deep]

the writing on the Michael Ginsberg character is not that consistent

there are times when he is just a complete asshole, worthless, petty on little things and where he is portrayed as being odd, disconnected from reality

and then, like a blind pig, he finds an acorn.

At last, something beautiful you can truly own

 

[deep]

I thought she felt badly at the time, but Peggy likes money and power as much as any of the men, and this is a triumph for her.

aside from liking money, she was living in a modest apartment with some loser guy mooching off of her.
She has been there 7 years. So much was made of Joan's 13. I imagine the $19,000 is about a 40% raise with a title. and also, Ted really does seen like a decent guy, from what we have seen. I do hope they continue the Peggy story line she has been on since episode one, and aside from Don, she is the center of the show.

 

[corianderstem]

An interesting thing someone brought up elsewhere that hadn't occurred to me:

Sal was fired for his refusal to whore himself out to that Lucky Strike asswipe. Maybe Joan remembered that.

i keep hearing that someone is supposed to die this season

I've moved on from Pete and am now on Lane Deathwatch. Nice shot of him in front of Roger's "void" painting last night, too.

Also, I by no means think Peggy is "gone" gone. She's left SCDP, but I still think she's going to be a major character in the show. Not sure how, and hopefully she won't pop up in 2 episodes next season as next season's little-seen Betty. But I don't think she's gone by a long shot.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

I can't see how they could end that show without the Peggy character. To me it's like she represents the future, and the male characters are the past.

 

[bollox]

After initially disliking him, I've really come around to Ginsberg. I like his ambition and the fact that he doesn't kiss ass to the higher ups. His scenes with Don are great; Don barely conceals his contempt for Ginsberg but knows he has to tolerate this guy because he's a talented copy writer. I don't find his oddness inconsistent with his job performance either. Cliched as it may be, some of the oddest people are the most creative.

 

[Irvine511]

really interesting write up, and money quote from it on the subject of Joan:

Joan's reactions are nearly as deliberate as Don's. When I look back over the episode, she impresses me even more than Megan or Peggy, because of the magnitude of the offense she's been asked to commit and the value that she extracted from it. It's not easy to find a core of morality in scummy circumstances, but Joan did it here. It makes no sense to judge her actions by 2012 upper-middle-class liberal standards. There was no such thing as "sexual harassment" in pre-1980s American offices, only piggish behavior that was more often endured than punished. At the highest levels of every industry, women's bodies got traded — for accounts, for real estate, for cash, for Super Bowl tickets, you name it. And the women agreed because (1) if they said "no" they would be fired, or at least indefinitely consigned to their current rung on the workplace ladder, and (2) getting another job was no guarantee of immunity against future mistreatment. The next boss could be worse than the one before. Every woman knew this; it was a fact of life.

The stakes are even higher for Joan because she has another human being depending on her, and because she sacrificed her Suzy Q. Homemaker lifestyle (which she never enjoyed, granted) to return to SCDP. She's one of those rare people who, on their deathbed, will wish she'd spent more time at the office. So she sleeps with Herb the Jaguar guy. She's practical that way. And notice what she does with the necklace that he gives her: she doesn't throw it in the garbage (the clichéd Hollywood reaction). She saves it. Why? Because it's worth money. Maybe she'll pawn it and buy a new dishwasher.

Mad Men Recap: Three Women -- Vulture

also, the article links to this:

Sgt. Don Draper’s Lonely Hearts Club Band � Yi! News

trippy, no?

 

[maycocksean]

Holy fucking shit.

The Kinks guitar riff kicking in right on cue with Peggy's smile is just an absolutely unforgettable moment. Stunning. Everything about those last couple of minutes: the talk with Don, Joan's look. Wow. I cannot believe that shit just went down. Peggy Olson! The hand kiss!

And, yeah, the fact that all of that happened after the brutal scenario with Joan? God damn. I mean, that sequence with Joan and the sleazy Jaguar guy intercut with Don's speech...damn. Only to find later that Don's visit was too late. My goodness.

That was some fucking serious stomach-punch television. What a show. And all the shit Lane was pulling? And that shot of him almost disappearing into Roger's crazy polka dot painting? Wow. What the fuck happens now? I need a cigarette.

This.

 

[maycocksean]

About 10 minutes into this episode which I finally watched tonight I was thinking, man I can't wait to get on Interference and find out what everyone is saying about this episode! I knew this thread would blow up big time and it did. All your thoughts have added to an already remarkably rich television experience.

I can't really think of anything to add to what has already been said, only that I can't wait to watch it again!

 

[Lila64]

Omg!

 

[corianderstem]

Deva.
Fucking.
Stating.

 

[deep]

now Glen has someone new to stalk

last week and this week, the writing has been deteriorating

 

[Irvine511]

A riveting hour.

I quite disagree with deep. The last two episodes have been the strongest of the season. Last week's a bit better.

I have to say, I thought it was all a red herring when the Jaguar wouldn't start, and I found myself laughing. But then I stopped

 

[PhilsFan]

As soon as I saw that he was lining up to do it in the Jaguar, I was like, "I'll bet the car doesn't start." But yeah, that shit was crazy.

Great episode, though I was surprised by how nonchalant Megan and Don were about Glen Nepotism's big day out with Sally.

 

[Irvine511]

Was nice to see Bonkers Betty back for a bit.

I bet she misses Glen.

 

[Imperor]

Glen Nepotism

Jesus, the little Weiner is such an awful actor.

 

[trojanchick99]

Even though I could see it coming, it was still a punch in the gut. Joan's face was just heart breaking.

 

[corianderstem]

In memoriam:

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

And yes, Weiner's kid cannot act. If there were enough Twilight books he could be in one of those in a couple of years.

 

[PhilsFan]

Jesus, the little Weiner is such an awful actor.

I just want my bag back!