Hewson
Blue Crack Supplier
Congrats to David Ortiz.
The Headache household should be jovial tonight.
The Headache household should be jovial tonight.
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MrPryck2U
ONE love, blood, life
Yes, Papi gets in. Congrats, BoSox fans!
Bonds and Clemens denied.
AR gets 34 percent. Oh darn.
Sad all for 3 because they were superstars who should be inducted.
A player who actually tested positive for PEDs is elected on the first try, the greatest offensive catcher of all time (who never tested positive) took three tries because he a reporter saw him with bad back acne once, and the greatest baseball player of all time, who never tested positive (but, like, obviously took em), is not in the hall of fame.
what a world, what a world.
this is not to say that Ortiz doesn't deserve to be in - he does. but the double standards and the baseball writer high horse bullshit is ridiculous.
what a world, what a world.
this is not to say that Ortiz doesn't deserve to be in - he does. but the double standards and the baseball writer high horse bullshit is ridiculous.
lazarus
Blue Crack Supplier
Did I miss them kicking Willie Mays out?
No amphetamine is allowed in the Hall.
MrPryck2U
ONE love, blood, life
The bad optic for the Hall is that more people wind up talking about who was denied as opposed to who was elected. AR's name will be thrown out there more prominently in the coming years now that Bonds and Clemens are out of the discussion.
phanan
Blue Crack Addict
What would it be if all his walks were outs?
DaveC
Blue Crack Addict
seems like an ideal time to re-post this great video:
the tourist
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Congrats to David Ortiz, the 3rd best DH of all time!
LuckyNumber7
Blue Crack Addict
Does seem a little unfair that we are using Ortiz’s moment to focus on Bonds.
Then again, Hall of Fames are glorified nonsense. And it’s baseball.
Then again, Hall of Fames are glorified nonsense. And it’s baseball.
Hewson
Blue Crack Supplier
What other DHs were elected their first time on the ballot?
There's only one other DH in the HoF, and that scrub was elected in his final year on the ballot in a sympathy vote.
(Frank Thomas is listed as a first baseman by the HoF before you use him as one of the examples)
the issue is that Ortiz actually had positive test - never mind that he went from a 15-20 homer guy to a 40 homer guy after switching teams - but he's good to get in first try. oh but he said he only took vitamins and supplements and it was a false positive. riiiiiiiiiight.
bonds, the greatest baseball player to ever live, can't get in. piazza, who never had a positive test, had to wait 3 tries to get in because a reporter wrote about his back acne one time.
it's hypocrisy at the highest level.
I absolutely believe Ortiz should be a first ballot hall of famer. But Ortiz getting in while Bonds/Clemens/McGwire/etc. are denied is absolutely absurd - almost as absurd as Bud Selig being in but those guys not.
obviously bonds used PEDs. so did a lot of players. there are absolutely players in the hall of fame who did. Willie Mays took amphetamine. either we're holding everyone out for PED use, or you let the guy in.
so, yes - unfair to use Ortiz's moment to point out the hypocrisy of the baseball writers. alas - kind of unavoidable on this one.
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LuckyNumber7
Blue Crack Addict
We’re on the same page.
Ish. It’s still just a hall of fame and idc enough to be annoyed by it.
Ish. It’s still just a hall of fame and idc enough to be annoyed by it.
the tourist
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What other DHs were elected their first time on the ballot?
There's only one other DH in the HoF, and that scrub was elected in his final year on the ballot in a sympathy vote.
(Frank Thomas is listed as a first baseman by the HoF before you use him as one of the examples)
Mr. Sympathy Scrub’s OPS was better than Mr. First Ballot’s. He also had 14 more fWAR in 1400 less PAs and a wRC+ 7% higher.
And Frank Thomas going in as a 1B is a joke since he played nearly 350 more games at DH than 1B.
But hey, maybe someone who tested positive getting in first ballot at a position that until Edgar made it in was derided by many writers as only playing half the game opens up the potential for Nelson Cruz to make it into the hall if he’s still effective for a couple more years.
no no - it was just an over the counter supplement. he said so himself.
Hewson
Blue Crack Supplier
the tourist
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Oh, so being blessed by having a good GM and rich owner makes a player better.
Hewson
Blue Crack Supplier
One of those rings is a WS MVP ring...that usually means that the player was the best in the series.
And there is a clutch factor that not all good or great players have. Ortiz had it at an incredible level.
the tourist
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And yet during the regular season, Ortiz had an fWAR/162 of 3.43 and Martinez had an fWAR/162 of 5.16. So cool, Ortiz was better in the playoffs by .074 in OPS - .947 vs .873; Martinez was better in the regular season.
Hewson
Blue Crack Supplier
Very cool. I like championships more than regular season base hits.
And Ortiz had more career hits than Edgar, 232 more career HR, 485 more RBI and they had almost identical OPS in regular season. Martinez as you point out was better, .933 to .931, almost negligible.
So fWAR (what is it good for?) all you want, one advanced metric does not make Edgar a better player.
And Ortiz had more career hits than Edgar, 232 more career HR, 485 more RBI and they had almost identical OPS in regular season. Martinez as you point out was better, .933 to .931, almost negligible.
So fWAR (what is it good for?) all you want, one advanced metric does not make Edgar a better player.
bono_212
Blue Crack Distributor
My biggest problem with Bonds will always be that there was such an obvious point where he started abusing steroids. And I think the same is true for the other players being mentioned in this conversation.
For Ortiz, I'm less familiar, does he have a similar situation where there was a moment in his career where he took a sudden turn to being a completely different player?
What will always piss me off about Bonds is how unnecessary it all was. He was amazing before the steroids. Don't know why it became such a big deal to hit HRs instead of being a gold glove winner.
For Ortiz, I'm less familiar, does he have a similar situation where there was a moment in his career where he took a sudden turn to being a completely different player?
What will always piss me off about Bonds is how unnecessary it all was. He was amazing before the steroids. Don't know why it became such a big deal to hit HRs instead of being a gold glove winner.
the tourist
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Championships are built by owners who spend and good GMs who make shrewd moves and luck. Edgar Martinez benefited from none of these things aside from luck for maybe two seasons.
Ortiz did have the counting stats on Martinez thanks to 1400 extra plate appearances due to the aforementioned stupid GMs keeping him basically in the minor leagues until he was 27 because of some stupid assessment of Jim Pressly as actually being a good player.
If you completely discount WAR, and care more about dingers and RBIs, I can see how you can think Ortiz is better.
But you fucking called Martinez a scrub.
A scrub whose wRC+ is equal to Mike Schmidt and Honus Wagner and above Miguel Cabrera, Bryce Harper, Chipper Jones, and David Ortiz.
Hewson
Blue Crack Supplier
I called him a scrub in jest in response to your calling Ortiz the 3rd best DH ever. I even put one of these
at the end.You take stuff far too seriously on here sometimes.
the tourist
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I called him a scrub in jest in response to your calling Ortiz the 3rd best DH ever. I even put one of these
You take stuff far too seriously on here sometimes.
Ortiz is the 3rd best DH of all time though. WAR, wRC+, and OPS. Ortiz has some counting stats thanks to his GM not being a moron.
Notice I’m not even claiming Edgar was the best. Frank Thomas was the best.
As for the taking things too seriously, if you were a fan of a shitty team and kept getting kicked while you’re down about one of the best hitters of all time you’d probably do the same. But you’ll never know because your teams haven’t been primarily shit for your entire adult life.
MrPryck2U
ONE love, blood, life
After the '98 season, Barry wanted more of the glory that Big Mac and Sosa received during the HR chase to pass Maris' 61 HR's. It was ego that drove Barry. He knew he could be more prolific than those 2 guys. He just utilized a little help. That's when Barry had what I like to call his "handshake with the Devil". He'll make a lot of money, have awesome stats, and break records, but he won't be inducted into the Hall of Fame.
bono_212
Blue Crack Distributor
I won't disagree with you that that's what happened, it's just sad because he would've been a record-breaking hall of famer anyways.
