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Old 01-12-2012, 12:25 PM   #621
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I think you unfairly grouped Lance Berkman on that list. After last year, I'd say he's up there on that list with those relative shoo-ins.
He'll probably need two or three more years at the same level of production. A lot of guys who are deserving haven't gotten in because of counting stats and Berkman simply doesn't have the counting stats to be a lock. Todd Helton should be ahead of Berkman.
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Old 01-12-2012, 01:44 PM   #622
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Ichiro is a lock, cause his Japanese years will be considered as well.

Carlos Beltran has zero chance.
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Old 01-12-2012, 02:36 PM   #623
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I agree. Ichiro is a lock. I think 2011 was an abberation. (Hope I spelled that right) The M's sucked last year and even Ichiro was affected.

What about everybody's buddy, Manny? Does he get in?
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Old 01-12-2012, 04:40 PM   #624
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WAR calculates value. Edgar ranks ahead of Mo currently. You're stating something that goes against all forward-thinking baseball minds. But okay. This thread knows better.
WAR was invented by a fat twit who never did an athletic thing in his life. And people who look at stats as the word, indisputable evidence of an athlete's worth, likely falls into the same category.

Stats are a great tool. Its not the end all be all. When a stat tells you that Edgar Martinez is better than Mariano Rivera, a logical speaking person should go...

"hmm, perhaps I should take that one with a grain of salt, because the idea that Edgar was better than Mo is fucking insane, and I'd have to be a crazy person to believe such a thing. In fact, maybe I should not place such an emphasis on these crazy stats if it tells me something that it so utterly and obviously wrong."

Show me a well respected "forward thinking" baseball mind who would make such an asinine statement. Please. I beg of you.
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Old 01-12-2012, 05:40 PM   #625
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WAR was invented by a fat twit who never did an athletic thing in his life. And people who look at stats as the word, indisputable evidence of an athlete's worth, likely falls into the same category.

Stats are a great tool. Its not the end all be all.
This this this this this.

A million times this.
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Old 01-12-2012, 09:18 PM   #626
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You guys better stay away from fangraphs or front offices.
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Old 01-12-2012, 11:14 PM   #627
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I like sabermetrics to a point. But I know the difference Mo made on games and the difference Edgar made on games.
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Old 01-13-2012, 05:43 AM   #628
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Originally Posted by the tourist


You guys better stay away from fangraphs or front offices.
Again... well respected baseball mind who thinks Edgar Martinez was more valuable than Mariano Rivera. Present that person, please.
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Old 01-13-2012, 05:45 AM   #629
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I like sabermetrics to a point. But I know the difference Mo made on games and the difference Edgar made on games.
Exactly.

Stats are a great tool to measure performance. One's own eyes is a great tool as well. Using either independent of the other is fucking retarded.
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Old 01-13-2012, 10:25 AM   #630
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Be careful with that. 'One's own eyes' can be deceptive. I'd rather see think of it as 'one's own mind'. Judge with your eyes and your wowometer factor is going to shoot up every time Robert Andino walks a ballgame off.
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Old 01-13-2012, 10:48 AM   #631
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Again... well respected baseball mind who thinks Edgar Martinez was more valuable than Mariano Rivera. Present that person, please.
The entire sabermetric community since they're the ones who created WAR. Did you know your boy Alderson is a huge proponent of sabermetrics?
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Old 01-13-2012, 11:46 AM   #632
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i do not think you even believe that.
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Old 01-13-2012, 12:08 PM   #633
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i do not think you even believe that.
Believe what? That the people who created WAR believe in its ability to evaluate talent? That may be partially correct due to the difficulty in defensive metric accuracy. Thankfully, that isn't much of a factor with regard to a DH and a pitcher.
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Old 01-13-2012, 12:12 PM   #634
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You literally just said every person who believes in sabermetrics (and let's be clear that "the entire sabermetric community" means that, just so you don't throw out bullshit about straw men) believes that Edgar Martinez was more valuable to his team than Mariano Rivera, solely based on the fact that he had a higher WAR.

There's no possible way that is true.
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Old 01-13-2012, 12:17 PM   #635
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Originally Posted by PhilsFan View Post
You literally just said every person who believes in sabermetrics (and let's be clear that "the entire sabermetric community" means that, just so you don't throw out bullshit about straw men) believes that Edgar Martinez was more valuable to his team than Mariano Rivera, solely based on the fact that he had a higher WAR.

There's no possible way that is true.
Fine, the sabermetricians who believe in WAR as a tool to evaluate talent. And by WAR, I mean the statistics that go into determining WAR such as wRC+, and xFIP.

Over the course of his career, Edgar Martinez created more runs than Mariano Rivera prevented.
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Old 01-13-2012, 12:20 PM   #636
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Anyway, this is all ridiculously off topic from my original premise.

If no DHs should be allowed into the hall of fame for only playing "half the game", then no closers should be allowed into the hall of fame since they, as well, only play "half the game".

Mariano Rivera is the best closer in history and that likely won't change for decades.
Edgar Martinez is the best DH in history and that likely won't change for decades.
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Old 01-13-2012, 12:55 PM   #637
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The entire sabermetric community since they're the ones who created WAR. Did you know your boy Alderson is a huge proponent of sabermetrics?
no, don't get off the hook with that bullshit statement.

show me a quote, a link, an article... of a well respected baseball mind who believes Mariano Rivera is more valuable than Edgar Martinez.

and yes, i very well know that Alderson is a big sabermetrics guy. his assistant, depodesta, is the person who fatso mcgee from superbad's character in moneyball is based off of.

i also know that sandy alderson would never make a statement saying that edgar martinez is more valuable than mariano rivera, because he knows that it's not true, and only a crazy person would believe such a thing. so i eliminated him for you... so please, again... give me a quote from a well respected baseball person, sabermetric guru or otherwise, who believes edgar martinez was more valuable than mariano rivera.

please. i'm begging you.
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Old 01-13-2012, 01:20 PM   #638
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fatso mcgee from superbad
Check your lease. Homeboy is skinny now. He also had a higher VORP than Michael Cera.
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Old 01-13-2012, 04:07 PM   #639
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As big as I am on stats, I really think that the position taken by the tourist here does a disservice to the "sabermetric community". Nobody who is seriously into stats (or who took econometrics 101) would put all faith in one single indicator as WAR. Why look at one data point when you have so much more to look at?

This argument is also somewhat weak even from a statistical standpoint, as there are so many people that have showed how fWAR underrates relief pitchers (thus the use of WPA for many of them). Not only that, but FIP - the stat on which WAR is based for pitchers - severely underrates Rivera due to his well known ability to produce weak contact. That's why bWAR ranks Rivera much higher (56.3, remarkable for a reliever). Not to mention that WAR is based exclusively on regular season performance, when Rivera's case has so much to do to his postseason greatness.
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Old 01-13-2012, 04:44 PM   #640
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Check your lease. Homeboy is skinny now. He also had a higher VORP than Michael Cera.
Well played, sir.
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