Still working on the album...

[U2DMfan]

Careful what you wish for. They let Howie B run all over Pop. And the record is shit for it.

U2 are more than capable of writing great songs.

If I had known U2 were more than capable of writing great songs, I'd have become a fan of theirs a long time ago! Thanks for that, Brau!

I don't think you can blame an artist that essentially gets undercut. Howie B was making them pizzas and they were happy with that...until they weren't. And in the end they wanted lasagna and the finished product, I believe, shows the mixed messages, at least on certain songs. But that sort of underscores what I said at the end of the post you quoted. They've just go to go all-in and not back down from a ballsy move.

Besides that, Howie B's fingerprints are all over MOFO.
One of U2's finest moments since the end of ZooTv, hands down.

Personally, I think Disco on the album is a bit of a mess in pure presentation but they (clearly) weren't trying to make some dumbed down easily digestible crystal-clean Mutt Lange single. They likely made the sound they wanted to make to some degree, until it didn't become a #1 hit (insert Bono's bullshit re: Discotheque from the 2005 Greg Kot interview here) and the album and tour started getting blasted. In other words, it was only mistake after the fact.

Either way, count me in the camp that believes the 'Best Of' mix - of ANY of those songs was absolute bullshit. I could go on a rant...I'll save it.

I was 22 in 1997 and a HUGE U2 fan, I remember the media blitz for POP quite well. I had just got online in 1996 too. U2 could not have been prouder of that album until people began rejecting this 'version' of U2. Then the excuses started. Everything else is revisionist history and most of it, sadly enough, from U2 themselves. I think they are proud of that album and will say so even today. But their 'excuses' for POP's supposed "failure" have a clash with reality. Part of that reality being - that the change they undertook mid-stream basically negated Howie B's contributions to at least some extent. It was no longer trending trip-hop (or whatever) and more towards straight rock. So I'd just say again, as I said before "it is important for them to have confidence" in Danger Mouse, where they didn't have confidence in Howie B.

You could say "well, they knew Howie B wasn't working..." but how can someone say that? All the fans received was an album that was half-brilliant, half-crap. More objectively, an album with some mixed creative messages. Maybe it would have been much different had they released it in August of 1996...who knows? But if you are against U2 progressing in that way yto begin with, maybe it wouldn't be your thing regardless.

They didn't have confidence in going balls out on NLOTH.
And...HTDAAB, enough to have to fire the producer. An album, in my view, in which several terrible song selection choices were made. It's not a new phenomenon, I just hope they just push all the chips in the middle this time.

 

[An Cat Gav]

Careful what you wish for. They let Howie B run all over Pop. And the record is shit for it.

U2 are more than capable of writing great songs.

I definitely agree that they made a bad choice sticking with him, they backed the wrong horse, Nellie Hooper was the one who should have produced with Flood, and left Howie B in the background, though as U2DMfan does point out his fingerprints are all over Mofo(one of my faves).

 

[mama cass]

Like. that. should. be. necessary. to say.
Of. course. it's. my. opinion. who. else's. opinion. would. it. be.?

mimicry, best form of flattery, apparently

Of. course. it's. my. opinion. who. else's. opinion. would. it. be.?

i dunno, Larry's??

 

[Nick66]

i dunno, Larry's??

Start paying attention. I only saved Larry's life, I don't make his opinions for him.

 

[mama cass]

Start paying attention. I only saved Larry's life, I don't make his opinions for him.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

I like these two tweets from AtU2:

Headache, are you paying attention.

They stole my ideas

 

[YBORCITY]

U2's songwriting and album-making process seems like such a hodgepodge that it's unfair to slag Larry as 'useless.' Also, while Larry has the rep as being the spoilsport, for all we know he's kept the band from shooting themselves in the foot a hundred times over.

I kinda disagree with what you said about Larry. Every book, magazine article and interview I have ever read/heard it seems to me Larry is extremely close minded. And I often wonder how much his influence his mundane ""take no chances" attitude has on the finished product, especially HTDAAB and NLOTH.

I always wondered if they had a chance to work with Jack White what the end result would be.

 

[Nick66]

I kinda disagree with what you said about Larry. Every book, magazine article and interview I have ever read/heard it seems to me Larry is extremely close minded. And I often wonder how much his influence his mundane ""take no chances" attitude has on the finished product, especially HTDAAB and NLOTH.

You shouldn't believe everything you read.

 

[YBORCITY]

^

 

[jeevey]

I kinda disagree with what you said about Larry. Every book, magazine article and interview I have ever read/heard it seems to me Larry is extremely close minded. And I often wonder how much his influence his mundane ""take no chances" attitude has on the finished product, especially HTDAAB and NLOTH.

I always wondered if they had a chance to work with Jack White what the end result would be.

I think cautious is the word for it, which can work to the good when you've got an impetuous hothead like Bono. I forget the interview I saw- a late night show from one of the last 2 records, I think, when the host said something similar about Larry. Bono stopped in his tracks and was like, "Hey, when this man has something to say, I listen to it. He's a very smart man and I respect his input very much." He was really a little offended about it.

I think more likely the take-no-chances attitude is self doubt related to age and market changes. They really depend on the love- hence the historical revision on less popular projects. If anything Larry seems less susceptible to being a love slut, and more independent.

 

[Zoocoustic]

I was 22 in 1997 and a HUGE U2 fan, I remember the media blitz for POP quite well. I had just got online in 1996 too. U2 could not have been prouder of that album until people began rejecting this 'version' of U2. Then the excuses started. Everything else is revisionist history and most of it, sadly enough, from U2 themselves. I think they are proud of that album and will say so even today. But their 'excuses' for POP's supposed "failure" have a clash with reality. Part of that reality being - that the change they undertook mid-stream basically negated Howie B's contributions to at least some extent. It was no longer trending trip-hop (or whatever) and more towards straight rock. So I'd just say again, as I said before "it is important for them to have confidence" in Danger Mouse, where they didn't have confidence in Howie B.

You could say "well, they knew Howie B wasn't working..." but how can someone say that? All the fans received was an album that was half-brilliant, half-crap. More objectively, an album with some mixed creative messages. Maybe it would have been much different had they released it in August of 1996...who knows? But if you are against U2 progressing in that way yto begin with, maybe it wouldn't be your thing regardless.

They didn't have confidence in going balls out on NLOTH.
And...HTDAAB, enough to have to fire the producer. An album, in my view, in which several terrible song selection choices were made. It's not a new phenomenon, I just hope they just push all the chips in the middle this time.

^This.

I remember when Pop was released. The media blitz was HUGE. Discotheque was a Top 10 song in the US. It was all over Top 40 radio. Staring at the Sun was huge as well. Again, always played on the radio, very popular. U2 was proud of their work. I still have the POP booklet from the tour where one of the band members is quoted saying how they worked to make sure Pop was exactly how they wanted it....but then once the backlash started U2 was quick to explain that the album never really was finished...blah, blah, blah. Excuses. By the end of the Pop era they had embarrassed themselves by cutting the balls off of the tour, dropping new songs in favor of crowd-pleasing favorites, and remixing every song they released, grasping for "acceptance" by Top 40 radio and eventually tying IGWSHA to a horrible Nicolas Cage rom-com.

Same correlation with NLOTH. They came out swinging. And yes, Boots sucked, but they stood behind it. Hell, the live version was WAY better than the studio track. The tour was outer-space themed and the songs were way heavy from the new album. Remember the quotes that they were proud of the album and couldn't wait to tour it? Toward the end of 360 they had officially, for the first time in their careers, become the Rolling Stones. They were not touring a new album, they were touring "greatest hits". They were embarrassed and, like Pop, I doubt we will ever hear much from this album live in the future.

I only hope they don't retreat back to "safety" a la ALYCLB...an album I loved, but I don't want to see it repeated in a weaker way. (Truth be told, they already did that with HTDAAB.) It sounds as though they will try for something new and bold and daring. And seriously: why not? They have already proven themselves more than virtually every artist out there. More success. More relevance. Etc. Etc. Time to just do what they want and quit worrying about everyone else.

 

[OpenG180]

Pop was HUGE in South America.

 

[Von Schloopen]

You could say "well, they knew Howie B wasn't working..." but how can someone say that? All the fans received was an album that was half-brilliant, half-crap. More objectively, an album with some mixed creative messages. Maybe it would have been much different had they released it in August of 1996...who knows? But if you are against U2 progressing in that way yto begin with, maybe it wouldn't be your thing regardless.

The songs were great. The production was amateur. I'm all for progress and exploration, but that doesn't mean basic music production should take a back seat. Pop is a "how-to" on how not to make a record. It sounds horrible. And stories of recording vocals during mastering reinforce that fact.

It's like they built the most advanced and technologically sophisticated automobile known to humankind.

And the engine wouldn't turn over. So, who cares?

Every track on that record is better live. The songs were there. Hell, U2 are great songwriters, so, that's not surprising. They bought in with a trend that production techniques and tricks would make their songs better. Which is just absurd. If only they'd had the confidence to let the songs speak for themselves Pop would be a great record. They let bullshit get in the way.

I'm glad they got over that. And I hope they never let something like Pop happen again.

 

[OpenG180]

The songs were great. The production was amateur. I'm all for progress and exploration, but that doesn't mean basic music production should take a back seat. Pop is a "how-to" on how not to make a record. It sounds horrible. And stories of recording vocals during mastering reinforce that fact.

It's like they built the most advanced and technologically sophisticated automobile known to humankind.

And the engine wouldn't turn over. So, who cares?

Every track on that record is better live. The songs were there. Hell, U2 are great songwriters, so, that's not surprising. They bought in with a trend that production techniques and tricks would make their songs better. Which is just absurd. If only they'd had the confidence to let the songs speak for themselves Pop would be a great record. They let bullshit get in the way.

I'm glad they got over that. And I hope they never let something like Pop happen again.

Reading your posts, i really don't get the vibe of someone who's "all for progress and exploration".

 

[Von Schloopen]

Reading your posts, i really don't get the vibe of someone who's "all for progress and exploration".

How's that?

 

[LemonMelon]

Pop was HUGE in South America.

Sucked massive donkey balls tho

 

[dazzledbylight]

unless they're playing those stripped down intimate rare gigs in people's front rooms...

 

[gweeps]

Pop is not shit! It's one of the their most honest and diverse albums. Even the singles aren't the typical radio-friendly stuff. They score big time for pulling that off.

 

[AcrobatU2Pop]

Pop is not shit! It's one of the their most honest and diverse albums. Even the singles aren't the typical radio-friendly stuff. They score big time for pulling that off.

And the b sides/remixes are great too!

Holy Joe
Two Shots of Happy One Shot Of Sad
North And South of The River

 

[gweeps]

And the b sides/remixes are great too!

Holy Joe
Two Shots of Happy One Shot Of Sad
North And South of The River

It was a great experiment, albeit not as successful as they wanted it to be. Too bad they view it as a glass-half-empty thing.

 

[AcrobatU2Pop]

It was a great experiment, albeit not as successful as they wanted it to be. Too bad they view it as a glass-half-empty thing.

Hopefully they'll have an Achtung Baby moment with it like the had at the end of the 360 tour.

 

[dazzledbylight]

POP is a very good album!
I didn't see the tour bc i didn't like the visuals.


Yeah i remember them being really proud of NLOTH. It's in my
favorite three- JT, AB and NLOTH
And I was very disapointed that they backtracked on it.

Do you think McG had anything to do with that backtrtackin ( ie less sales 5than he expected) ?

I was very disapoined too that they dropped that many NLOTH songs in the '11 swing of the tour.

 

[Sken]

In my opinion, I think Bono has lost the ability in most cases to decide if a song is cool or not, and whether it will resonate with the public. What he thinks is great, and Boots is a prime example of this, many do not.

I hope that Burton is honest and direct with the band to say, hey guys that's crap, let's not waste any more time here. Hopefully this will omit songs like Stand Up Comedy ever coming out of U2 again.

I really like NLOTH a great deal, it had some spectacular songs and moments, but you really wish it had someone there honest enough to cut the middle 3 songs, tell the band to liven up the last past of Moment of Surrender, ala All I Want Is You. Make Magnificent sound more rocky and less disco, and tell Edge to use include a riff in this song. Tell Bono to write some better lyrics for Unknown Caller and make the song sound less automated.

Re-write the silly lyrics in Breathe, say bye bye to the Cockatoo. Improve the leadup to the chorus, and play or sing it in a way Bono can actually keep up with the pacing of the song. And definitely get rid of the yodeling sounds on NLOTH, the one turn off in that song.

BTW, POP is awesome for the most part.

 

[Von Schloopen]

In my opinion, I think Bono has lost the ability in most cases to decide if a song is cool or not, and whether it will resonate with the public.

I don't think he's ever had this ability.

 

[lemonfly]

In my opinion, I think Bono has lost the ability in most cases to decide if a song is cool or not, and whether it will resonate with the public. What he thinks is great, and Boots is a prime example of this, many do not.

I hope that Burton is honest and direct with the band to say, hey guys that's crap, let's not waste any more time here. Hopefully this will omit songs like Stand Up Comedy ever coming out of U2 again.
[/E]

I don't think it's just Bono, it's all of them. Larry could have been the one to push for Boots to be first out the gates, we just can't know for sure. This is purely speculation on my part, but I get the impression there may be something of a "power struggle" between Bono and Larry going on. I don't think things are as harmonious within the band as they would have us believe. As for Danger Mouse, we shouldn't peg all our hopes on him. I think he's supremely talented, but U2's most interesting work has always been with Lanois/Eno at the helm (in a full-time capacity). Put simply, I think this new album probably won't contain a BD/MOS/Bad. They just never reached those heights with any other producer, and I don't think that's ever going to change.

 

[Von Schloopen]

Hopefully this will omit songs like Stand Up Comedy ever coming out of U2 again.

Fire Burton immediately.

 

[OpenG180]

Sucked massive donkey balls tho

LOL poor donkeys!

 

[Sken]

In my opinion, I think Bono has lost the ability in most cases to decide if a song is cool or not, and whether it will resonate with the public. What he thinks is great, and Boots is a prime example of this, many do not.

I hope that Burton is honest and direct with the band to say, hey guys that's crap, let's not waste any more time here. Hopefully this will omit songs like Stand Up Comedy ever coming out of U2 again.
[/E]

I don't think it's just Bono, it's all of them. Larry could have been the one to push for Boots to be first out the gates, we just can't know for sure. This is purely speculation on my part, but I get the impression there may be something of a "power struggle" between Bono and Larry going on. I don't think things are as harmonious within the band as they would have us believe. As for Danger Mouse, we shouldn't peg all our hopes on him. I think he's supremely talented, but U2's most interesting work has always been with Lanois/Eno at the helm (in a full-time capacity). Put simply, I think this new album probably won't contain a BD/MOS/Bad. They just never reached those heights with any other producer, and I don't think that's ever going to change.

I think you might be right, maybe not so much a power struggle, but possibly two very strong opinions in direction.

I hope Danger Mouse explores a bit of each band members ideas and directs them in the most interesting, maybe most challenging place musically. I agree though, I don't think he has the skills to pull a Bad or MOS out of them, they will have to do that themselves.

Or we could have a very loud album with songs like Stand Up Comedy, Glastonbury, Boots..........shudders

 

[Von Schloopen]

I don't think he has the skills to pull a Bad or MOS out of them,

What makes you think that?

 

[Sken]

What makes you think that?

Just an opinion from someone with limited knowledge of Burton's work. Pulling out songs long Bad is a rarity, and I believe it has more to do with the frame of mind of the band.