Star Wars storyline and plot discussion on new and old trilogy conflicts

[jay canseco]

Having not yet watched the film, I've wondered if the droid that says Padme died of heartbreak might have belonged to the Emperor. The Emperor may have had Padme killed so that Anakin would have no reason left to return to the good side....until he later finds luke and leia??? Does the movie trash this theory?
I thought of this when reading that the Emperor enjoyed telling Anakin about Padme.

 

[starsforu2]

Having seen the film twice I interpreted the Force Lightening disfigurement differently than what has been posted.

The emperor intentionally allowed the lightening to disfigure him to elicit sympathy first from Anakin and then the Imperial Senate.

He could have wiped out Mace quite easily but he allowed Mace to disarm him so that when Anakin arrived he would rescue Palpatine.

If the Emperor had been winning that battle and Mace was crying for help Anakin might have struck down the Emperor, but instead Anakin arrived and the Emperor is cowering. And the Emperor is also the last link to a life-preserving solution for Padme.

Anakin doesn't choose to slay Mace, he accidentally cuts off his hand while trying to save the Emperor. The horror on his face was perfect like "Oh st, what have I done?", and then of course he quickly crumbles and to the Emperor now that he has nothing else to lose.

I thought that whole scene was done quite deftly. The Emperor totally played everyone, including the audience.

 

[Anthony]

I love this scene. Very complex, and Ian McDiarmid is sensational in it. I too think that he was overplaying the 'don't kill me, please... I'm too weak' angle, seeing as how quickly (i.e. - instantly) he disposes of Mace Windu as soon as Anakin cuts his hand off. Having said that, I don't think he lost the duel with Mace on purpose (Mace kicks hims hard and causes him to fall) and I don't think he'd scar himself on purpose (though I don't think he really cares).

Either way, its a cool scene.

Ant.

 

[mdw3935]

From the start of that scene, for me is when the movie just gets so great all the way to the end. One of my favorite scenes, although I hated seeing Mace die .

Ian McDiarmid did such a great job as the Emperor, I loved hating him in this movie .

I do agree with what starsforu2 says about Anakin not choosing to kill Mace. It's obvious he didn't go there with that intension. He cuts off Mace's hand and the Emperor does the rest with his blue force lightening. I don't think at first he (Palpatine) was trying to lose the battle with Mace, but as soon as Anakin showed up he started playing the "helpless and very weak, I can't hold on much longer" roll. He was playing on Anakin's desire and need to help keep Padme alive and he was the only one who could show him how to do that.

A very excellent scene that was .

 

[Bonofire]

I didn't see Mace's body fly out the window, only his lightsaber and a gush of wind. Did his body disappear at death like Yoda's and Obi Wan's? At the end of Return of the Jedi, did Darth's body vanish, or was that it Luke burned and not just the suit??

 

[mdw3935]

Mace's hand flew out of the window with the lightsabre in it. After that then Palpatine zapped him with the lightening then I believe Mace went flying out the window too.

As for Vader's body at the end of Jedi, it never shows what happens to his body. It only shows Luke burning the suit. I just assumed that his body was in there, but maybe I'm wrong and his did vanish like Yoda's and Obi-Wan's

 

[AvsGirl41]

Mace's hand flew out of the window with the lightsabre in it. After that then Palpatine zapped him with the lightening then I believe Mace went flying out the window too.

As for Vader's body at the end of Jedi, it never shows what happens to his body. It only shows Luke burning the suit. I just assumed that his body was in there, but maybe I'm wrong and his did vanish like Yoda's and Obi-Wan's

It looked like Mace Windu kept flying for awhile.

I don't think Vader's body disappeared--he dies right in front of Luke, but doesn't disappear, and Luke carries his body out of the Death Star. I guess it could be an empty suit but I don't think he would have gone to all that trouble if it was.

Maybe their bodies vanish because of a conscious decision? Obi Wan and Yoda were both taught how to return by Qui-Gon, and Vader and Mace weren't--maybe that has something to do with it?

 

[Anthony]

Maybe their bodies vanish because of a conscious decision? Obi Wan and Yoda were both taught how to return by Qui-Gon, and Vader and Mace weren't--maybe that has something to do with it?

Yup, it seems that Qui Gon's training of Yoda and Obi Wan resulted in their disappearances and ghostly apparitions. Odd, since Qui Gon himself didn't disappear and doesn't come back as ghostly apparitions. It would have made more sense if in that scene he appeared to Yoda a la Alec Guinness.

As for Mace Windu, he didn't disappear. He flew out of the window engulfed in force lightning, screaming like the big girl he was.

Yeah, I love Samuel L. Jackson, but I found Mace Windu's character irritating as hell - epitomising why the Jedi fell so vividly. I was totally rivited by the Emperor's triumphant shriek of 'Power, UNLIMITED POWER!', and was compelled to clap (I didn't of course, that would have made me a complete freak... which I must be). Either way, it seems like I missed the point of that scene.

Ant.

 

[JOFO]

I haven't seen revenge of the sith yet, but I want to know for how long is darth vader in the movie for? does he do anything except lay on that table?


and does anakin become "darth vader" before the whole disfigurement/robot operation thing?

 

[Dr_Macphisto]

Past the "table" scene, there is one more scene where Darth in suit and the emporer look onto the Death Star being built.

and Anakin as Darth Vader is in the film basically as soon as Mace dies

 

[U2Kitten]

and Anakin as Darth Vader is in the film basically as soon as Mace dies

The emperor renames him right then when he switches to the dark side, but he still looks the same until after the last fight with Obi Wan when he gets so terribly fucked up and has to go into the suit. There is the gruesome surgery scene, then about a couple minutes as Darth Vader himself (Hayden Christensen in the suit, James Earl Jones' voice) at the end.

 

[U2Kitten]

Yup, it seems that Qui Gon's training of Yoda and Obi Wan resulted in their disappearances and ghostly apparitions. Odd, since Qui Gon himself didn't disappear and doesn't come back as ghostly apparitions. It would have made more sense if in that scene he appeared to Yoda a la Alec Guinness.


Ant.

Wasn't there some line in the movie where Yoda tells Obi Wan that Qui Gon has found a way to conquer death using the force, and he will return to teach him?

Though Darth Vader's body didn't disappear (good point noticing Luke carrying him) he did cross back to the good side and appear as an apparition with Yoda and Kenobi so maybe he couldn't disappear until he crossed through something in the force that made him a Jedi again? Or I guess it must be the 'conscious decision' thing, Obi Wan all but committed suicide, and Yoda knew he had 'expired.' But wait, he was in the middle of a sentence, 'there is another sky..wallk..er...' Sigh, I don't know.

 

[U2Kitten]

BTW, I was watching Jedi again, and I noticed that when Luke is carrying his body, he's still alive- it's before the scene where the takes off the helmet. They do not show him carrying a body after he dies, only flying off the Death Star in a plane and burning the suit/body on Endor.

 

[DaveC]

Going back to the chosen one thing, I seem to remember it being said that there is absolutely nothing in the prophecy that explicitly states that the Sith are going to be defeated, but merely that the Chosen One will bring balance to the Force.

When you think about it, Anakin did just that. The Jedi (the light side) are absolutely dominant. Anakin as Vader reasserts the Dark Side's power and brings back the other side.

And when it comes to the two-Sith-only rule, that is explained in the KOTOR video games. There are 2 Dark Lords of the Sith at all times, a Master and an Apprentice. There are thousands of other Sith, but they are merely Dark Jedi with lesser powers. The Master trains the Apprentice until such point that the Apprentice is stronger than the Master, and the Apprentice then tries to kill the Master. If the Apprentice succeeds, he becomes the Master and chooses an Apprentice to train to eventually kill him. If the Master succeeds, he chooses a new Apprentice from among the ranks of the Sith to train again.

The way a Master succeeds is by being killed (in a full-on saber battle, not in his sleep a la Darth Plagueis) by the Apprentice. This ensures that the Apprentices (and therefore, the Sith) have to keep getting stronger and stronger to defeat better and better Masters.

Obviously, the rules have changed a bit by the time of the films, but you get the general idea.

 

[kellyahern]

I love this scene. Very complex, and Ian McDiarmid is sensational in it. I too think that he was overplaying the 'don't kill me, please... I'm too weak' angle, seeing as how quickly (i.e. - instantly) he disposes of Mace Windu as soon as Anakin cuts his hand off. Having said that, I don't think he lost the duel with Mace on purpose (Mace kicks hims hard and causes him to fall) and I don't think he'd scar himself on purpose (though I don't think he really cares).

Either way, its a cool scene.

Ant.

I finally saw the movie today (I was sick last weekend, plus had a U2 concert to go to ).

That was a good scence, but the change from "What have I done?" to "yep, I'm Darth Vader now" just seemed a little quick to me. I know that it's crucial to the film, and it's been building up to that for the entire movie, but the transistion seemed to easy at that moment to me

But the scene where he turns against Padme, the fight with Obi Wan . . .

 

[nbcrusader]

And when it comes to the two-Sith-only rule, that is explained in the KOTOR video games. There are 2 Dark Lords of the Sith at all times, a Master and an Apprentice. There are thousands of other Sith, but they are merely Dark Jedi with lesser powers. The Master trains the Apprentice until such point that the Apprentice is stronger than the Master, and the Apprentice then tries to kill the Master. If the Apprentice succeeds, he becomes the Master and chooses an Apprentice to train to eventually kill him. If the Master succeeds, he chooses a new Apprentice from among the ranks of the Sith to train again.

Not much of a career path to work for the Sith.....

 

[nbcrusader]

Having not yet watched the film, I've wondered if the droid that says Padme died of heartbreak might have belonged to the Emperor. The Emperor may have had Padme killed so that Anakin would have no reason left to return to the good side....until he later finds luke and leia??? Does the movie trash this theory?
I thought of this when reading that the Emperor enjoyed telling Anakin about Padme.

There is a back story regarding the medical droids (as with all minor characters in Star Wars).

The medical personnel do not work for the Empire and are well known for the medical prowess. The particular base where Padme is taken is hidden in an astroid field.

 

[nbcrusader]

I love this scene. Very complex, and Ian McDiarmid is sensational in it. I too think that he was overplaying the 'don't kill me, please... I'm too weak' angle, seeing as how quickly (i.e. - instantly) he disposes of Mace Windu as soon as Anakin cuts his hand off. Having said that, I don't think he lost the duel with Mace on purpose (Mace kicks hims hard and causes him to fall) and I don't think he'd scar himself on purpose (though I don't think he really cares).

Either way, its a cool scene.

Ant.

I love Palpatine's progression from "I'm too weak" to "No, no, no" (when Windu says he is to dangerous to live), to his cry of "Absolute Power" as he blasts Windu with the final jolt of force lightning.

 

[WinnieThePoo]

but palpatine is not that selfish , it's all about sith teachings, after all he knew that vader would be stronger then him , and death star 2 battle was more like an opportunity to find a new sith student ( luke ) or to find a new sith lord ( darth vader ) , i always thought , if vader would remain strong and healthy ( even with chopped robotic hand ), they would've been a new pair ( master and the apprentice ) , darth vader / anakin skywalker still was on the dark side , luke used the dark side , there were three of them , one had to go
in episode VI , luke even looked like a sith anyways

 

[DeadMansParty]

I havent read this whole thing and maybe you guys have talked about it, but I didnt understand how the Jedi's didnt sence when they called for " 66" and they started killing all the Jedi's.

 

[WinnieThePoo]

i think , they did , yoda did , mace did and he tried to do something , but it happened so quickly and those clone troopers were quite good ,

 

[Bonofire]

Yea it happened too fast, like in Sith there are scenes of individual Jedis being turned on by their clone troopers and murdered. Alone they didn't stand a chance. They show that beehive head guy and the green girl getting it bad. Obi Wan's turned on him too but he managed to escape as he always does.

I have a question, if there can only be 2 sith lords, why do both Vader and the emperor want to convert Luke so bad? Don't they know that if they succeed one of them would have to die? And if they did know this why were they in it together, knowing there could not be 3???

 

[nbcrusader]

I havent read this whole thing and maybe you guys have talked about it, but I didnt understand how the Jedi's didnt sence when they called for " 66" and they started killing all the Jedi's.

There may be a difficulty in sensing clones because they are clones. From bits and pieces I've read, the clones all appear the same in terms of the Force. Thus, a Jedi would sense a mass of "white noise" with so many "copies" of the same person.

Also, it seems that Order 66 was hard wired into the Clones, so they would respond quickly once they heard the order.

 

[DaveC]

I have a question, if there can only be 2 sith lords, why do both Vader and the emperor want to convert Luke so bad? Don't they know that if they succeed one of them would have to die? And if they did know this why were they in it together, knowing there could not be 3???

Vader was looking to make Luke his apprentice the whole time.

If you remember correctly, when the Emperor isn't around, Vader tells Luke that he wants to rule the Galaxy as father and son together. I take this to mean that the Emperor would be killed by Vader and Luke together once Luke was properly trained in the Dark Side.

 

[popacrobat]

Vader was looking to make Luke his apprentice the whole time.

If you remember correctly, when the Emperor isn't around, Vader tells Luke that he wants to rule the Galaxy as father and son together. I take this to mean that the Emperor would be killed by Vader and Luke together once Luke was properly trained in the Dark Side.

correctamundo

 

[nbcrusader]

Vader was looking to make Luke his apprentice the whole time.

If you remember correctly, when the Emperor isn't around, Vader tells Luke that he wants to rule the Galaxy as father and son together. I take this to mean that the Emperor would be killed by Vader and Luke together once Luke was properly trained in the Dark Side.

But Sidious was just as willing to have Luke kill Vader and take Luke as his new apprentice. Notice how Sidious enjoys their battle to the end - but is frustrated when Luke won't finish Vader off.

 

[The_One1932]

Have we ever thought about the prophecy in this sense: Vader brought balance to the force by fathering luke. Luke fought Vader and brought out the good in him and vader returned to anakin and killed the emperor. He fathered luke who was the one who truly changed everything and in future books brought back the jedi knights to the new republic. In a sense they both brought balance to the force. Maybe the misinterpretation was that bringing balance to the force meant giving life to the one who would truly do so. i dunno, jsut rambling...

 

[blueyedpoet]

here's what is a concern to me...why wasn't the word "sith" ever used in the original movies? i mean now everyone uses it like it's been there all along...but it hasn't

 

[Bonofire]

So Vader and the emperor were both hoping to use Luke against the other? Maybe that's why Vader told Luke he was his dad, to get the better chance at it! But if this was true, why did the two sith lords not sense the betrayal in the other, and fight it out themselves?

 

[phanan]

here's what is a concern to me...why wasn't the word "sith" ever used in the original movies? i mean now everyone uses it like it's been there all along...but it hasn't

While I can't recall anyone saying the word "sith" in the original trilogy off the top of my head, it is in the script when describing a scene, and also mentioned in the books. It has always been around.