School Shootings

[INDY500]

I'll ask them about parents taking less and less responsibility for their kids, I'll ask them about teenagers having guns while the gun lobby ensures their access to them, I'll ask them about media overload on violence, I'll ask them about kids sitting unsupervised in front of their televisions for hours a day.

And thanks for assuming that I'm under 40.

I agree with you as much as I agree with the Columbine father. Kids aren't any worse today, absolutely it's lack of responsible parental guidance (including manners for Pete's sake) along with a constant bombardment with garbage and filth simply unimaginable in my childhood. That's not to say, however, that a parent's job isn't made all the more harder when schools or society discourage the very same values a parent may be trying to instill into their child.

And thanks for not grading my grammer.

Make that grammar. Spellcheck, now there's something I could have used as a kid.

 

[martha]

that a parent's job isn't made all the more harder when schools... discourage the very same values a parent may trying to instill into their child.

Like what? What am I discouraging that you're trying to instill?


I want concrete examples.

 

[Irvine511]

Like what? What am I discouraging that you're trying to instill?


I want concrete examples.

you know, i'd rather a more immoral society so long as students are learning the cold, hard, amoral facts instead of being fed feel-good fairy tales.

 

[trevster2k]

Like what? What am I discouraging that you're trying to instill?


I want concrete examples.

You and your damn science!!!!!

 

[yolland]

I'm not sure how useful analysis of social values trends is for making sense of school massacres, as opposed to gang-related violence or even the sort of thing where one student shoots or stabs another over some argument between the two of them. I don't know that the psychosocial factors at work are the same across these different types of incidents. School violence has actually declined overall during the last decade, not hugely so but significantly (a 13% decrease in homicides, for example). And it's not as if Columbine was the first incident of its kind--there were 9 multiple-shooting incidents (in the US) in the 90s prior to that (spring of '99); 6 during the 80s; 2 during the 70s; and the deadliest US school massacre to date took place in Michigan in 1927. Media coverage of such events sure seems to have increased dramatically since Columbine, though; when I Googled to see what had happened prior to that I found I'd never even heard of more than a few--actually, I couldn't recall any of the 80s ones, even though that's when I was in high school. I can't help wondering if this kind of saturation coverage is itself a contributor to the problem; it really does get grotesquely voyeuristic after awhile, and the obsessive scrutiny of the specifics of the perpetrators' plans seems almost sublimating and worryingly likely to "inspire" the sociopathically inclined.

 

[martha]

I'm not sure how useful analysis of social values trends is for making sense of school massacres, as opposed to gang-related violence or even the sort of thing where one student shoots or stabs another over some argument between the two of them.

And these last two shooters were grown men, strangers to the school, not students who were corrupted by the humanist teaching going on at the school. One might even say these men were products of the "good old days" so pined for by some here.

 

[INDY500]

Like what? What am I discouraging that you're trying to instill?


I want concrete examples.

That's a little tough. It would depend on which grade, in which school district in which part of the country. And I wouldn't place the blame on teachers so much on as administrators and educational bureaucrats. They choose the curriculum and decide which books to buy. Here's a few "values-related" areas that spring to mind.

The introduction of sexual material to younger and younger children in the name of "health" or "aids education." Some districts are really pushing the limit in my opinion.

"Intelligent design."-- Alternatives should at least be discussed. (Science brought me to God so this is a personal point with me)

Multiculturalism-- Don't get me wrong, I think a foreign language class should be encouraged, I'm talking about the anti-Western bias and the subtle rewriting of history that's crept into some text books. "Taking God out of schools" is about more than just school prayer. The role of religion in our county's history has really been de-emphasized in recent years.

The banning of Dodgeball. Life isn't fair either.

 

[Liesje]

Indy if those are values that you believe many parents value but schools don't pay attention to, then shouldn't the PARENTS just find a school that DOES teach those "values"? Those are obviously values from a Christian perspective, so parents have the option to send their kids to a Christian school, if those values are SO important....

 

[anitram]

"Intelligent design."-- Alternatives should at least be discussed. (Science brought me to God so this is a personal point with me)

Teach it in philosophy class. Or a religion class.

Not in a science class.

 

[martha]

That's a little tough. It would depend on which grade, in which school district in which part of the country. And I wouldn't place the blame on teachers so much on as administrators and educational bureaucrats. They choose the curriculum and decide which books to buy. Here's a few "values-related" areas that spring to mind.

Golly! I should give you the specifics of my school site so you can assist me in improving my award-winning school district! What a help you must be to your own children's teachers. They must just love to see the phone message from you on their mailbox at the end of another long day countering the values you've tried to instill in your kids.

The introduction of sexual material to younger and younger children in the name of "health" or "aids education." Some districts are really pushing the limit in my opinion.

"Intelligent design."-- Alternatives should at least be discussed. (Science brought me to God so this is a personal point with me)

Multiculturalism-- Don't get me wrong, I think a foreign language class should be encouraged, I'm talking about the anti-Western bias and the subtle rewriting of history that's crept into some text books. "Taking God out of schools" is about more than just school prayer. The role of religion in our county's history has really been de-emphasized in recent years.

The banning of Dodgeball. Life isn't fair either.

Hmm. So these are the things that make crazy white men and boys want to kill little girls and their principals and classmates? These are the things schools teach that drive these whackjobs to kill? The parents of thses kids (and grown men) tried, but the schools failed them in a game of dogdeball?!

 

[Dreadsox]

The banning of Dodgeball. Life isn't fair either.

SO schools should allow Dodgeball, increasing the chance of injury, liability, and lawsuits to the school?

Sorry, Dodgeball is banned because of lawsuits, not because the school wanted to.

 

[Irvine511]

i used to love Dodgeball. i can't believe it's banned.

 

[martha]

My kids still play a form of it.

But it's voluntary.

 

[Irvine511]

i loved "Burn Ball/Butt's Up" as well.

where you throw a tennis ball at the wall, and you have to grab it with one hand, and if you drop it you have to run and touch the wall before someone else grabs the ball and throws it to the wall (or hits you) and if the ball hits the wall before you do you have to stand in front of the wall and someone gets to peg you in the ass with said tennis ball.

ah, 6th grade memories ... i was uncharacteristically aggressive playing Burn Ball ...

 

[martha]

Butt's Up isn't allowed at our school. Imagine the students' hidden delight at hearing their teachers say the phrase "Butt's Up."

 

[Irvine511]

Butt's Up isn't allowed at our school. Imagine the students' hidden delight at hearing their teachers say the phrase "Butt's Up."

ah, the joys of being a pre-teen in the late 1980s ... i remember playing it out of sight of the recess monitors, so i don't think it was condoned, but i don't remember it being explicitly forbidden.

unlike Guns 'n Roses, who were officially banned from my elementary school.

 

[BoMac]

i loved "Burn Ball/Butt's Up" as well.

where you throw a tennis ball at the wall, and you have to grab it with one hand, and if you drop it you have to run and touch the wall before someone else grabs the ball and throws it to the wall (or hits you) and if the ball hits the wall before you do you have to stand in front of the wall and someone gets to peg you in the ass with said tennis ball.

ah, 6th grade memories ... i was uncharacteristically aggressive playing Burn Ball ...

the memories indeed! We used to play this game here also but we called it "Suicide" instead. I was never really good at it!

Must have been interesting at the dinner table:

Mom: "So Billy, how was school today?

Billy: Awesome! Today, Joe and Tony taught me how to suicide!

Mom:

 

[Liesje]

We played Vomit in high school for exam reviews. Basically, the class is in teams, the teacher asks a question, and once your team knows the answer a runner has to run to the front and write VOMIT on the board. Then if you answer it right, you get the points. It sounds stupid, but it's hilarious because people never remember to write VOMIT and always write the answer to the question! The German classes caught on, but had to write the German word for vomit. Our American Government teacher uped the ante by starting "Projectile Vomit" where the other teams were allowed to throw large wads of paper at the runners. Before long, projectile paper wads were loaded with apples, pens, textbooks....crazy shit!

 

[deep]

it is shocking this hasn't gotten more coverage.

PHILADELPHIA, Pennsylvania (Reuters) -- One of the girls who died in Pennsylvania's Amish schoolhouse massacre asked the killer to shoot her first in an apparent bid to save the younger girls, a woman who spoke to the victim's family said Friday.

Rita Rhoads, a nurse-midwife who delivered 13-year-old Marian Fisher as well as another victim, said Fisher appealed to Charles Carl Roberts IV to shoot her first because she thought it might allow younger girls to survive.

Rhoads said she did not know whether Fisher in fact was shot first. Roberts shot 10 girls ages 6 to 13, killing five of them and then himself in Monday's rampage. (Watch "shocked and sad" Amish express forgiveness -- 2:46)

Fisher's 11-year-old sister, Barbie, appealed to Roberts to shoot her next, Rhoads said. Barbie survived and was in Children's Hospital of Philadelphia recovering from shoulder, hand and leg injuries.

"Barbie has been talking and she said Marian said, 'Shoot me first,"' Rhoads said. "Apparently what she was trying to do was to save the younger girls."

Barbie, who attended her sister's funeral Thursday before returning to the hospital, gave details of her ordeal to relatives including her grandfather, who told Rhoads, the midwife said in a telephone interview.

"It was very courageous of the girls to offer themselves," Rhoads said. "God was really present to give the girls that kind of courage.

 

[INDY500]

Golly! I should give you the specifics of my school site so you can assist me in improving my award-winning school district! What a help you must be to your own children's teachers. They must just love to see the phone message from you on their mailbox at the end of another long day countering the values you've tried to instill in your kids.

Hmm. So these are the things that make crazy white men and boys want to kill little girls and their principals and classmates? These are the things schools teach that drive these whackjobs to kill? The parents of thses kids (and grown men) tried, but the schools failed them in a game of dogdeball?!

Thanks for both the personal attack and for putting words in my mouth.

 

[martha]

You're welcome for both.

You said that you'd need to know specifics of my school before you could tell me what I was doing wrong. I sure appreciated that.

Then, since this thread is about a grown man who killed little schoolgirls he didn't even know, you were somehow able to link those murders to both the outlawing of dodgeball and multiculturalism.

I'm only helping you clarify your message.

 

[Bono'sTyee]

This is sad. Have you guys heard the story of Rachel Joy Scott?

 

[INDY500]

You're welcome for both.

You said that you'd need to know specifics of my school before you could tell me what I was doing wrong. I sure appreciated that.

Then, since this thread is about a grown man who killed little schoolgirls he didn't even know, you were somehow able to link those murders to both the outlawing of dodgeball and multiculturalism.

I'm only helping you clarify your message.

How is....

Originally posted by INDY500
that a parent's job isn't made all the more harder when schools... discourage the very same values a parent may be trying to instill into their child.
(you)
Like what? What am I discouraging that you're trying to instill?
I want concrete examples.
(me)
That's a little tough. It would depend on which grade, in which school district in which part of the country.

...asking for the specifics of where YOU work? It's an acknowledgment that educational curriculums are controlled locally and are not uniform throughout the country. For all I know, you live and work in Kansas where they DO teach Intelligent Design. In addition, I don't have a problem with "sex ed" in high school, but in the 2nd grade, that's another matter. Maybe you misread my post, but it says what it says.

And I thought it was pretty clear that our discussion had sidetracked into "parenting in today's culture." I can't think of a classroom in America that could possibly be more insulated from multiculturalism, aids education or the debate over evolution, than that little schoolroom in Lancaster County. It's preposterous to think I was making a direct link.

If you can't engage conservative debate...don't try.

 

[WildHoneyAlways]

Multiculturalism-- Don't get me wrong, I think a foreign language class should be encouraged, I'm talking about the anti-Western bias and the subtle rewriting of history that's crept into some text books. "Taking God out of schools" is about more than just school prayer. The role of religion in our county's history has really been de-emphasized in recent years.

Really? As a history teacher I haven't noticed that at all. In fact, my juniors and I just got done talking about the Second Great Awakening and it's lasting impact on 19th and 20th century America.

Also, could you please provide an example of rewritten history that has diminished religion's role?

 

[martha]

That's a little tough. It would depend on which grade, in which school district in which part of the country.

This is what I was referring to.

 

[phillyfan26]

How is....

"It would depend on which grade, in which school district in which part of the country."

...asking for the specifics of where YOU work? It's an acknowledgment that educational curriculums are controlled locally and are not uniform throughout the country. For all I know, you live and work in Kansas where they DO teach Intelligent Design. In addition, I don't have a problem with "sex ed" in high school, but in the 2nd grade, that's another matter. Maybe you misread my post, but it says what it says.

Let's put it in context:

martha: "What am I discouraging that you're trying to instill? I want concrete examples."

INDY500: That's a little tough. It would depend on which grade, in which school district in which part of the country...

So, you did essentially say that you would need specifics to give the "concrete examples."

 

[trevster2k]

I am amazed and impressed with the level of forgiveness of the Amish community. Apparently, they have embraced the wife and children of the man who committed the horrific murders on their community. They have even setup a fund to help his family. Remarkable display of compassion in the midst of such anguish and heartbreak.

Anyone know the basics of their doctrine, cause this ability to forgive and reach out is stunning especially in our vengeful society today.

 

[MacHat]

I am amazed and impressed with the level of forgiveness of the Amish community. Apparently, they have embraced the wife and children of the man who committed the horrific murders on their community. They have even setup a fund to help his family. Remarkable display of compassion in the midst of such anguish and heartbreak.

Anyone know the basics of their doctrine, cause this ability to forgive and reach out is stunning especially in our vengeful society today.

I've felt the same about their level of forgiveness. In this day in age its rare and I think very very welcome.

 

[phillyfan26]

As they reported over and over again, they are not a violent nor angry people, so this makes complete sense. Every Amish person I've known has great morals and values, is extremely polite, etc.

 

[briarrose]

I am amazed and impressed with the level of forgiveness of the Amish community. Apparently, they have embraced the wife and children of the man who committed the horrific murders on their community. They have even setup a fund to help his family. Remarkable display of compassion in the midst of such anguish and heartbreak.

Anyone know the basics of their doctrine, cause this ability to forgive and reach out is stunning especially in our vengeful society today.

The Amish have very similar doctrine to that of conservative Christians. They take what the Bible says literally. Ephesians 4:32 says, "Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you." I would say they believe God has total sovereignty, as in He has everything planned out and everything happens for a purpose.

I pick up an Amish girl every Saturday morning on the way to work (we work together). She said this morning that she felt horrible for the Robert's family. She said everyone is upset about the girls, but it happened and nothing can change it. She said the one 6 year old girl was brain dead and brought home to die, but then noticed that she was beginning to respond to light so they took her back to the hospital. I waited on a lot of Amish today and most of them seem like their normal selves.