Ordinary Love Discussion (Part 2)

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"Magic marker" isn't 'sloganing'.


New York like a Christmas tree
Eyes stolen like a beesting

Many lines in heartland.

And what about that beloved 90's? Are you people serious? Puppies, Michael Jackson, the horrible fish bicycle line(yes I know it's a well known line, it just doesn't fit in the song), 'more than a lot', and all of Miami... Just to name a few.

I think zooropa and pop hold some of Bono's best and some the worst of his career.
 
Well, nobody's perfect. But it takes close analysis of the 90s records to find truly crappy lines. There are a handful per album.

Print out the lyrics to Ordinary Love and blindly point wherever. You'll probably find a cliche.
 
Well, nobody's perfect. But it takes close analysis of the 90s records to find truly crappy lines. There are a handful per album.

Print out the lyrics to Ordinary Love and blindly point wherever. You'll probably find a cliche.

Close analysis? Pop has 6 songs; 50% of the album has true crap.

Disco, Angels, Staring, Miami, Playboy, and Wake Up... No close analysis needed.
 
Close analysis? Pop has 6 songs; 50% of the album has true crap.

Disco, Angels, Staring, Miami, Playboy, and Wake Up... No close analysis needed.

Lyrically (which is what we're discussing here), all of those songs are superior to Ordinary Love, especially WUDM. You can cherry pick weak lines, but overall, it's not even close.

But that's, like, my opinion, man.
 
Indeed. When he kept it simple, he was able to convey more. His "sloganeering" feels awfully contrived and doesn't play to his strengths as a lyricist.

Oh, it doesn't have to be simple. His best lyrics are often quite the opposite. But they do not need to be ready to lift out of the song and used on a T-shirt, for a charity, etc etc etc.
 
Lyrically (which is what we're discussing here), all of those songs are superior to Ordinary Love, especially WUDM. You can cherry pick weak lines, but overall, it's not even close.

But that's, like, my opinion, man.

But that's what people are doing; cherry picking lines. WUDM starts to spiral down during the 'listen' lines, after that's it starts to suck.
 
But that's what people are doing; cherry picking lines. WUDM starts to spiral down during the 'listen' lines, after that's it starts to suck.

Can you name me a lyric in Ordinary Love that you really like?
 
Can you name me a lyric in Ordinary Love that you really like?

I'm not saying that I particularly like the lyrics of Ordinary Love. They just don't offend me as much as shit like "can't stand the sight of a puppy". I'm a huge fan of WUDM, but I still think it has some really shit lines. It could have been a great song, but it's just good. The lyrics knock it down, that and I think older versions were much stronger.

PS: I think the marker couplet could have been strong if somehow he used a reference to a tattoo. People just don't like references to everyday items or words. Flowers, fire, and crosses are much more poetic :wink:
 
I think talk of his past lyrical misteps doesn't fit with the general narrative of decline, so, it gets ignored. The good old days were always good.
 
Never let a little fact get in the way of a good narrative. Where would all the good stories be then?
 
But let's not get it twisted, Achtung Baby is an awesome album lyrically. Probably more awesome than anything since.

I don't agree that the sloganeering is necessarily problematic. Bono utilized pop culture references in creative, resonant ways in the past, so there's nothing inherently wrong with it.
 
I'm a huge fan of WUDM, but I still think it has some really shit lines
Yeah, the "your father made the world in seven; he's in charge of heaven" line might be my all-time least favorite Bono lyric, even though I think Pop is his finest lyrical album overall.
 
Something that people are really forgetting here is that rock lyrics aren't meant to stand on their own...and in fact most rock lyrics can't stand up to scrutiny w/o the music. These aren't poems...the music is the thing after all. We can read Shakespeare as literature, or appreciate it in performance. But it's difficult to appreciate the lyrics to any song w/o the music. We're not talking about a poet reading his work accompanied by music. In that case, it's really the words that matter, and the music is incidental. In song, the music (along with the vocal performance of course) is what it's ultimately about..the lyrics are meant to serve the music. And a lyric doesn't have to be great to be great in a song, some of the best rock songs in history have pretty banal lyrics, after all. But the lyric must work in terms of the song, or the whole thing just falls apart.

So yeah, context matters. "A mole, diggin' in a hole, diggin' up my soul..." for example looks silly when it's read, and is certainly no better than the magic marker line, or the baby's head line, et.al. But in terms of the song, it works. Or at least you don't care b/c the song rocks so much. In fact, a lot of U2's lyrics, from any era, don't make a lot of sense. There's a lot of clunkers in the much revered-90's, and the "poetic" 80's. But U2 made a lot of great music, and that can elevate mediocre or even poor lyrics...the opposite is rarely the case. If the music isn't there, the lyric isn't going to work. Or at least, the song isn't going to work.

I'm one of those people who pays attention to, and appreciates, good lyrics. But no matter how good they are (and rock lyrics are only going to ever be so good), if the music isn't there, I'm really not going to care enough to continue to listen for the lyrics alone. The magic marker line, to me, would be bad even if the song itself were better...but in that case, I wouldn't really care. Breathe is a pretty good example of this, as is, yes, Unknown Caller. Those lyrics aren't that great, but those songs work (though granted, they'd work even better with better lyrics).

I can't quite put my finger on why so much of Bono's 00's lyrical output seems awkward and forced. It's certainly not all like that, there's been some great stuff from AYCLB onward. But when it's bad, it's really bad.
 
If people want to debate the difference in lyrical quality from the past three albums to their output from the 80's or 90's, I'd strongly recommend that they stop. This isnt a matter of opinion, but rather a fact. This is basic math. Bono has been on a holiday for the past 13 odd years, and I cant say I blame him. If i had that kind of money I know I wouldn't bother with music anymore. The fact he comes up with gems here and there is about as good as anyone can expect at this point.
 
Something that people are really forgetting here is that rock lyrics aren't meant to stand on their own...and in fact most rock lyrics can't stand up to scrutiny w/o the music. These aren't poems...the music is the thing after all. We can read Shakespeare as literature, or appreciate it in performance. But it's difficult to appreciate the lyrics to any song w/o the music. We're not talking about a poet reading his work accompanied by music. In that case, it's really the words that matter, and the music is incidental. In song, the music (along with the vocal performance of course) is what it's ultimately about..the lyrics are meant to serve the music. And a lyric doesn't have to be great to be great in a song, some of the best rock songs in history have pretty banal lyrics, after all. But the lyric must work in terms of the song, or the whole thing just falls apart. So yeah, context matters. "A mole, diggin' in a hole, diggin' up my soul..." for example looks silly when it's read, and is certainly no better than the magic marker line, or the baby's head line, et.al. But in terms of the song, it works. Or at least you don't care b/c the song rocks so much. In fact, a lot of U2's lyrics, from any era, don't make a lot of sense. There's a lot of clunkers in the much revered-90's, and the "poetic" 80's. But U2 made a lot of great music, and that can elevate mediocre or even poor lyrics...the opposite is rarely the case. If the music isn't there, the lyric isn't going to work. Or at least, the song isn't going to work. I'm one of those people who pays attention to, and appreciates, good lyrics. But no matter how good they are (and rock lyrics are only going to ever be so good), if the music isn't there, I'm really not going to care enough to continue to listen for the lyrics alone. The magic marker line, to me, would be bad even if the song itself were better...but in that case, I wouldn't really care. Breathe is a pretty good example of this, as is, yes, Unknown Caller. Those lyrics aren't that great, but those songs work (though granted, they'd work even better with better lyrics). I can't quite put my finger on why so much of Bono's 00's lyrical output seems awkward and forced. It's certainly not all like that, there's been some great stuff from AYCLB onward. But when it's bad, it's really bad.



I agree with you. And I still think OL and the magic marker line are pretty good. ;)
 
If people want to debate the difference in lyrical quality from the past three albums to their output from the 80's or 90's, I'd strongly recommend that they stop. This isnt a matter of opinion, but rather a fact. This is basic math. Bono has been on a holiday for the past 13 odd years, and I cant say I blame him. If i had that kind of money I know I wouldn't bother with music anymore. The fact he comes up with gems here and there is about as good as anyone can expect at this point.

Could you share the mathematical equations used to determine the quality of Bono's lyrics? :wink:
 
If people want to debate the difference in lyrical quality from the past three albums to their output from the 80's or 90's, I'd strongly recommend that they stop. This isnt a matter of opinion, but rather a fact. This is basic math. Bono has been on a holiday for the past 13 odd years, and I cant say I blame him. If i had that kind of money I know I wouldn't bother with music anymore. The fact he comes up with gems here and there is about as good as anyone can expect at this point.

Begone, J. Evans Pritchard, Ph.D!

rip it out- dead poets society - YouTube
 
If people want to debate the difference in lyrical quality from the past three albums to their output from the 80's or 90's, I'd strongly recommend that they stop. This isnt a matter of opinion, but rather a fact. This is basic math. Bono has been on a holiday for the past 13 odd years, and I cant say I blame him. If i had that kind of money I know I wouldn't bother with music anymore. The fact he comes up with gems here and there is about as good as anyone can expect at this point.

opinion - definition of opinion by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.
fact - definition of fact by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.
math - definition of math by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

:) Looks like you need some help with your definitions.
 
If people want to debate the difference in lyrical quality from the past three albums to their output from the 80's or 90's, I'd strongly recommend that they stop. This isnt a matter of opinion, but rather a fact. This is basic math. Bono has been on a holiday for the past 13 odd years, and I cant say I blame him. If i had that kind of money I know I wouldn't bother with music anymore. The fact he comes up with gems here and there is about as good as anyone can expect at this point.
If people want to debate the difference in lyrical quality from the past three albums to their output from the 80's or 90's, I'd strongly recommend that they stop. This isnt a matter of opinion, but rather a fact. This is basic math. Bono has been on a holiday for the past 13 odd years, and I cant say I blame him. If i had that kind of money I know I wouldn't bother with music anymore. The fact he comes up with gems here and there is about as good as anyone can expect at this point.

Debating the quality of lyrics is pretty much pure opinion. Recommending they stop debating is also pure opinion.

Fact is, I'd prefer an honest debate on the qualitative differences in his lyric writing pre and post the 'let's not take ourselves so damn seriously' switchover, which came around Achtung. Not exactly quality, but there was a shift worth talking about. Whether or not you *like* the shift is a different story.

The lyrical clunkers before came from being a little too earnest, or vague, or trying too hard. The clunkers after came from being too ironic, literal, or deciding to take a lighter hand.

And I have a sneaking suspicion that those of us who are fonder of lyrics say, pre-2000, were younger and more impressionable when we were listening to War and UF and JT and Achtung. I personally was going through a lot more back then.. In school, getting,out of school, getting jobs, girlfriends, my family changing, deaths, births, all that stuff that later fades away a bit.

I listened to the ATYCLB-and-on material when I was more settled: stable job, condo, live in girlfriend and then wife. I love those later albums, but I listened to them with a more, say, grown-up ear, with less of a nostalgia filter than I do when I hear the stuff I grew up with.

Yet, there are many people who were in their younger, teeth-cutting years when Pop had just come out, or ATYCLB and onward. I keep hearing from them that the emotional, and I'm supposing lyrical, impact of those songs meant a lot to them, in a way it might not to me. When they're older farts like me, it'll be those albums they look back on with dreamy ears. If U2 keep putting out material, they'll likely note the stylistic differences of the 'new stuff' as compared the the 'classics' and some will be saying the same thing: if only Bono was as good as his 2000 work.

Just a suspicion. An opinion even. It'll take a few years for proper epidemiology and statistic crunching to generate the facts regarding general preference and acceptance of U2s lyrics across albums and across listeners' age groups.
 
Something that people are really forgetting here is that rock lyrics aren't meant to stand on their own...and in fact most rock lyrics can't stand up to scrutiny w/o the music. These aren't poems...the music is the thing after all. We can read Shakespeare as literature, or appreciate it in performance. But it's difficult to appreciate the lyrics to any song w/o the music. We're not talking about a poet reading his work accompanied by music. In that case, it's really the words that matter, and the music is incidental. In song, the music (along with the vocal performance of course) is what it's ultimately about..the lyrics are meant to serve the music. And a lyric doesn't have to be great to be great in a song, some of the best rock songs in history have pretty banal lyrics, after all. But the lyric must work in terms of the song, or the whole thing just falls apart.

So yeah, context matters. "A mole, diggin' in a hole, diggin' up my soul..." for example looks silly when it's read, and is certainly no better than the magic marker line, or the baby's head line, et.al. But in terms of the song, it works. Or at least you don't care b/c the song rocks so much. In fact, a lot of U2's lyrics, from any era, don't make a lot of sense. There's a lot of clunkers in the much revered-90's, and the "poetic" 80's. But U2 made a lot of great music, and that can elevate mediocre or even poor lyrics...the opposite is rarely the case. If the music isn't there, the lyric isn't going to work. Or at least, the song isn't going to work.

I'm one of those people who pays attention to, and appreciates, good lyrics. But no matter how good they are (and rock lyrics are only going to ever be so good), if the music isn't there, I'm really not going to care enough to continue to listen for the lyrics alone. The magic marker line, to me, would be bad even if the song itself were better...but in that case, I wouldn't really care. Breathe is a pretty good example of this, as is, yes, Unknown Caller. Those lyrics aren't that great, but those songs work (though granted, they'd work even better with better lyrics).

I can't quite put my finger on why so much of Bono's 00's lyrical output seems awkward and forced. It's certainly not all like that, there's been some great stuff from AYCLB onward. But when it's bad, it's really bad.

Excellent post. :up:
 
Yeah, the "your father made the world in seven; he's in charge of heaven" line might be my all-time least favorite Bono lyric, even though I think Pop is his finest lyrical album overall.

A little clunky but it works. Then again I think the lyricist side of him gets overhyped.

His all time low ?

Grace, it's a name for a girl, it's also a thought that changed the world
though rivaled with "we're a binary code...a one and a zero".
 
Something that people are really forgetting here is that rock lyrics aren't meant to stand on their own...and in fact most rock lyrics can't stand up to scrutiny w/o the music. These aren't poems...the music is the thing after all. We can read Shakespeare as literature, or appreciate it in performance. But it's difficult to appreciate the lyrics to any song w/o the music. We're not talking about a poet reading his work accompanied by music. In that case, it's really the words that matter, and the music is incidental. In song, the music (along with the vocal performance of course) is what it's ultimately about..the lyrics are meant to serve the music. And a lyric doesn't have to be great to be great in a song, some of the best rock songs in history have pretty banal lyrics, after all. But the lyric must work in terms of the song, or the whole thing just falls apart.

So yeah, context matters. "A mole, diggin' in a hole, diggin' up my soul..." for example looks silly when it's read, and is certainly no better than the magic marker line, or the baby's head line, et.al. But in terms of the song, it works. Or at least you don't care b/c the song rocks so much. In fact, a lot of U2's lyrics, from any era, don't make a lot of sense. There's a lot of clunkers in the much revered-90's, and the "poetic" 80's. But U2 made a lot of great music, and that can elevate mediocre or even poor lyrics...the opposite is rarely the case. If the music isn't there, the lyric isn't going to work. Or at least, the song isn't going to work.

I'm one of those people who pays attention to, and appreciates, good lyrics. But no matter how good they are (and rock lyrics are only going to ever be so good), if the music isn't there, I'm really not going to care enough to continue to listen for the lyrics alone. The magic marker line, to me, would be bad even if the song itself were better...but in that case, I wouldn't really care. Breathe is a pretty good example of this, as is, yes, Unknown Caller. Those lyrics aren't that great, but those songs work (though granted, they'd work even better with better lyrics).

I can't quite put my finger on why so much of Bono's 00's lyrical output seems awkward and forced. It's certainly not all like that, there's been some great stuff from AYCLB onward. But when it's bad, it's really bad.


One reason Bono's lyrics may seem more awkward in the 00's and on is because they are often far more personal. This started on "Pop", especially with "Mofo". But this very personal, introspective aspect came on strong with ATYCLB.

In the 80's, Bono wrote more about things, events or poepole. It is easy to be more poetic when writing about something that everyone can see and experience. Also, he wrote more abstractly, loving words like "kiss", "sky", "kneel", "colors", etc. These very general words keep something abstract and are relatively easy to use in a rhyming couplet.

However, after almost 15 years of writing that way, Bono started to change. AB did have some personal aspects, but not necessarily about him. Often the songs were regarding Edge. And even on AB, some of Bono's favorite words slipped in (especially on MW).

With ATYCLB, much of this stopped. Bono still used rhyming couplets, and sometimes had some fun such as "a mole in a hole", but his lyrics became more relatable. They were no longer abstract notions or events. Even the "I and I in the sky" part refers to himself and God.

And because of these more personal introspective elements, I feel the lyrics changed from "sky", "kneel", "colors" to some unusual terminology that doesn't always make for the optimal or most majestic of couplets. This may be why we have phrases like "heavy as a truck". I'm happy to ignore half a couplet for the far more powerful lyrics that remain in these songs, as well as the music and passionate vocals behind them.
 
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