New Jersey embraces civil rights for all couples

[BVS]

 

[martha]

I have re-read this several times and I can't seem to make any sense of it. I take the blame. Could you please re-phrase this for me? Thanks.

I do not want to enable or encourage an activity, institution, or relationship which I believe will only keep people from truly knowing the healing power of Christ. That’s my sole motivation.

So gay married people won't know the "healing power of Christ." So how come this is any of your business? Unless you somehow feel it's become your job to protect them from their evil decisions?

And if this isn't smug self-righteousness disguised as Christianity!

 

[AEON]

so by denying me marriage, you're going to bring me closer to Jesus?

I view gay marriage as an "endorsement" of homosexual behavior. Since I believe homosexual behavior a sin (and have given my reasons in other threads), and because sin keeps us distant from God, I will not vote for something that I believe perpetuates the distancing.

 

[Liesje]

So gay married people won't know the "healing power of Christ." So how come this is any of your business? Unless you somehow feel it's become your job to protect them from their evil decisions?

And if this isn't smug self-righteousness disguised as Christianity!

Seriously. So AEON, given your line of reasoning, you'd support banning and criminalizing divorce and adultery? Honestly, I'd have to think you a hyprocrite unless you'd support banning other "sinners", such as alcoholics, greedy people, smokers, etc from ever getting married.

 

[BrownEyedBoy]

I view gay marriage as an "endorsement" of homosexual behavior. Since I believe homosexual behavior a sin (and have given my reasons in other threads), and because sin keeps us distant from God, I will not vote for something that I believe perpetuates the distancing.

So you´ve never "sinned" in your life? You´re not being fair. You´re basically a pot calling the kettle black.

OUR Jesus said that he who is free of sin may throw the first stone... Why are you passing judgement and condemning someone whom you are no better than? Why are you throwing a stone?

Love your neighbor, my friend. Even if he is a liar, a thief, a homosexual ...a sin is the same sin in His eyes.

 

[AEON]

Seriously. So AEON, given your line of reasoning, you'd support banning and criminalizing divorce and adultery? Honestly, I'd have to think you a hyprocrite unless you'd support banning other "sinners", such as alcoholics, greedy people, smokers, etc from ever getting married.

I do not equate keeping the definition of marriage the way it is with criminalizing homosexual acts. My larger point, as I mentioned earlier, is that everyone votes their morality. We impose our moral views on each other in every action we perform, whether we intend to or not.

Also, endorsement and criminalization are separate ideas.

 

[AEON]

So you´ve never "sinned" in your life?

Lol. Where in the world did this come from? When have I ever claimed to be sinless?

It seems you may have jumped in on the last page of this thread. I encourage to read the entire thread.

 

[Irvine511]

I view gay marriage as an "endorsement" of homosexual behavior. Since I believe homosexual behavior a sin (and have given my reasons in other threads), and because sin keeps us distant from God, I will not vote for something that I believe perpetuates the distancing.

so don't be a homosexual and don't marry a homosexual.

why do you have to use the government to control my non-criminal behavior and deny me rights?

i can see you trying to convert me to Christ and then i'll be free of my homosexuality; i can see how your understanding of the Bible might lead you to believe it's wrong; i can see how you might want to encourage me to live a more sinless life; but i cannot understand why you need to deny me financial rights and incentives and the tools to create a stable relationship in order to do so.

i don't see why the legalization of something means that you, AEON, personally endorse the behavior. simply because one supports the legalization of marijuana, for example, does not mean that one thinks it's a good idea to smoke up. do people who abstain from any alcohol feel as if they need to fight for another era of Prohobition lest they be seen as endorsing the behavior?

 

[Irvine511]

Love your neighbor, my friend. Even if he is a liar, a thief, a homosexual ...a sin is the same sin in His eyes.

see, this is irritating too.

why mention homosexuality in the same breath as lying and stealing? those specific actions harm other people; a sexual orientation harms no one.

no one.

and it is not chosen. sexual orientation is totally involuntary, and isn't part of sin choosing to defy god?

 

[BrownEyedBoy]

see, this is irritating too.

why mention homosexuality in the same breath as lying and stealing? those specific actions harm other people; a sexual orientation harms no one.

no one.

and it is not chosen. sexual orientation is totally involuntary, and isn't part of sin choosing to defy god?

The guy said he viewed homosexuality as a sin. Just trying to disprove that argument.

 

[BVS]

Since I believe homosexual behavior a sin (and have given my reasons in other threads), and because sin keeps us distant from God, I will not vote for something that I believe perpetuates the distancing.

Then why not vote and outlaw all the other sins? Ban divorce, don't allow churches to hire women in teaching roles, jail time for not honoring your mother or using the lord's name in vain... Come on be consistent!!!

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

I view gay marriage as an "endorsement" of homosexual behavior. Since I believe homosexual behavior a sin (and have given my reasons in other threads), and because sin keeps us distant from God, I will not vote for something that I believe perpetuates the distancing.

So logically you have to say that straight marriage is an endorsement of hetero behavior. How could you not? Straight marriage is full of sinful behavior- straight people sin in their marriages all the time. They cheat, they abuse, they neglect-and on and on and on. So unless you will admit that you insist that straight marriage is inherently "sinless" regardless of the behavior of the man and woman, just by virtue that it is between a man and a woman (which is a belief not rooted in logic and reason but in the religious beliefs of SOME religious people), how could you endorse straight marriage? Granted we have never voted on straight marriage, but that is a logical question based upon what you have said here.

 

[Irvine511]

The guy said he viewed homosexuality as a sin. Just trying to disprove that argument.

oh, okay. understood.

 

[AEON]

see, this is irritating too.

why mention homosexuality in the same breath as lying and stealing? those specific actions harm other people; a sexual orientation harms no one.

no one.

Irvine, I refer back to the idea that we are all cracked and weak and depend on God for healing. One of my favorite stories in the Bible is where Jesus heals a blind man. However, before He heals the man, He asked him if he WANTS to be healed. It seems like a strange question doesn’t it? You would think that this man obviously would love to be healed.

However, so often (too often), our identity is wrapped around our brokenness. And I am just as broken as you are, and I also have to struggle to keep my identity in Christ – and not on my old, broken self.

 

[BVS]

So now being gay is a disease or defect? Wow...

 

[AEON]

So now being gay is a disease or defect? Wow...

I think my point was we are all diseased an defected at our core.

 

[BVS]

I think my point was we are all diseased an defected at our core.

Well then you may want to be careful of your analogies, because your response was to a specific question asked by Irvine...

 

[AEON]

So logically you have to say that straight marriage is an endorsement of hetero behavior. How could you not? Straight marriage is full of sinful behavior- straight people sin in their marriages all the time. They cheat, they abuse, they neglect-and on and on and on. So unless you will admit that you insist that straight marriage is inherently "sinless" regardless of the behavior of the man and woman, just by virtue that it is between a man and a woman (which is a belief not rooted in logic and reason but in the religious beliefs of SOME religious people), how could you endorse straight marriage? Granted we have never voted on straight marriage, but that is a logical question based upon what you have said here.

In my view, marriage is God's endorsement of the spiritual/physical union between a man and a woman. When Adam was alone, God created Eve because it was “not good for man to be alone.” We are designed for such relationships.

We marry in the eyes of God, and then we ask for God’s strength to protect and preserve the marriage. The sex within the boundary of this marriage is meant to pleasing, beautiful, and holy.

Most marriages fail when one or both of the parties continues to place his/her own needs before the needs of the other…and God.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

In my view, marriage is God's endorsement of the spiritual/physical union between a man and a woman. When Adam was alone, he created Eve because it was “not good for man to be alone.”

We marry in the eyes of God, and then we ask for God’s strength to protect and preserve the marriage. The sex within the boundary of this marriage is meant to pleasing, beautiful, and holy.

Most marriages fail when one or both of the parties continues to place his/her own needs before the needs of the other…and God.

Sorry, I don't see what any of that has to do with what I asked you. Do you believe that straight marriage is inherently sinless, even though men and women sin in marriage?

 

[martha]

My larger point, as I mentioned earlier, is that everyone votes their morality. We impose our moral views on each other in every action we perform, whether we intend to or not.

A sweeping generalization worthy of me, isn't it.



I have a serious moral problem with fertility treatments and in-vitro treatments. Seriously. I'm not making this up to make a point. My moral objection is twofold: 1. There are too many people already here on the planet; we don't need to indulge the child-bearing whims of naturally infertile people.
2. Religiously, I believe you play the cards you're dealt. Infertility is a part of the karma you work through this lifetime. To try to go around it is asking for trouble down the longer road.


That said I would NEVER, EVER vote to ban any kind of infertility treatments. EVER. It's none of my business how people choose to deal with that condition, unless actual physical harm comes to a third party.

So, according to your model of morality, voting, business-minding, and Saving the Heathen Masses, I'm perfectly within my moral rights to carry on with my objections by voting, quoting appropriate religious sources as a source of law, and generally sticking my nose into other people's business when it doesn't concern me in the least?

 

[INDY500]

 

[AEON]

Sorry, I don't see what any of that has to do with what I asked you. Do you believe that straight marriage is inherently sinless, even though men and women sin in marriage?

I think I did answer it. Marriage is the endorsement of the union between a man and a woman, the two becoming one. Each will sin and make mistakes after marriage, just as they did before marriage. So?

Perhaps I don’t understand the question: “Do you believe that straight marriage is inherently sinless, even though men and women sin in marriage?”

If you are asking is the “idea” of marriage inherently sinless I would say “yes” – because this is a plan ordained by God. However, if you are asking if marriage makes us sinless, I would answer an emphatic “no!”

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

So in other words you can always endorse straight marriage because the idea of it is sinless because it is ordained by God-even though it is often full of sin. But you could never endorse gay marriage because it is inherently automatically sinful even if the two people involved never cheated on each other, never abused each other, never mistreated each other (granted the mistreatment issue is a stretch for ANY couple, people mistreat those they love all the time-but just for hypothetical purposes).

Of course marriage doesn't make us sinless- but if you're straight, according to your logic, your sin in marriage is somehow just more acceptable.

 

[Dreadsox]

The way I see it....

You cannot point at a heterosexual couple and say they are sinning.....

But you can point at a gay couple and say...ooohh...they are sinning......

See, heterosexual sinning is not so blatently obvious, therefore it does not matter, because I cannot point to it and say...look there is sin.

 

[martha]

because I cannot point to it and say...look there is sin.

AEON may be able to...

 

[Irvine511]

Irvine, I refer back to the idea that we are all cracked and weak and depend on God for healing. One of my favorite stories in the Bible is where Jesus heals a blind man. However, before He heals the man, He asked him if he WANTS to be healed. It seems like a strange question doesn’t it? You would think that this man obviously would love to be healed.

However, so often (too often), our identity is wrapped around our brokenness. And I am just as broken as you are, and I also have to struggle to keep my identity in Christ – and not on my old, broken self.

but how i was designed by God to love isn't how i'm broken.

i'm far from perfect, but being gay isn't one of my flaws.

 

[Irvine511]

In my view, marriage is God's endorsement of the spiritual/physical union between a man and a woman. When Adam was alone, God created Eve because it was “not good for man to be alone.” We are designed for such relationships.

We marry in the eyes of God, and then we ask for God’s strength to protect and preserve the marriage. The sex within the boundary of this marriage is meant to pleasing, beautiful, and holy.

Most marriages fail when one or both of the parties continues to place his/her own needs before the needs of the other…and God.

why can't two men or two women do this?

why can't two gay men have pleasing, beautiful, and holy sex? same with two women?

 

[Irvine511]

maybe you could help out your conservative Christian brothers?

i do feel for AEON, as he's obviously taking an upopular stance, and he is doing his best to defend it.

 

[AEON]

why can't two men or two women do this?

why can't two gay men have pleasing, beautiful, and holy sex? same with two women?

I don't know.

 

[AEON]

maybe you could help out your conservative Christian brothers?

i do feel for AEON, as he's obviously taking an upopular stance, and he is doing his best to defend it.

Thanks Irvine. I appreciate the sympathy.

But I promise, I'm doing okay It is a great discussion in my opinion. And an important one.

However, if others want to add, by all means, please do!