Advice Needed (Vehicle Problems)

[Got Philk?]

So, this past week, Liesje and I found out that our main vehicle had some problems unknown to us. The cost of the fix would be close to $1,500. So I haven't done anything yet.

In november, I fixed something else for $250. In between that, I had to replace a battery, a filter, and do some other front end work for $200...see a trend here? And now I've come to the conclusion that fixing this car again and again is not the best option.

But here is where I need the advice. Say we just need a vehicle. It doesn't have to be new. I am fine with used as long as it's a reliable one. Right? What are the options? What should we be looking at? Is leasing a vehicle a good option? Or is it better to own? What if we don't have the money for a down payment? I've heard car loans are the worst kind of loan possible...

As you can see, any help would be much much much appreciated!

p.s. I am planning on going to some other places for a 2nd/3rd opinion...thats' where I start.

 

[Cleasai]

Toyotas have a great track record of reliability. And they're relatively cheap used. Although I've never leased a car before I do not recommend it. If something happens to the car, what then?

Incidentally I've been thinking about selling my '02 Camry LE for a '07 Camry SE.

 

[Got Philk?]

Can I stop by and take it off your hands? ?

 

[anitram]

I used to lease before and my parents lease. Leasing is great if you either make a lot of money and don't care to always have monthly payments (as opposed to outright ownership) and if you have a stable job otherwise you are fucked if you can't make the payment. Your monthly payments will be MUCH less with a lease than with buying, but then in 3-4 yrs you have to give it back and get nothing in return.

I prefer a lease because you can have a new car every 3-4 years. That way you never deal with endless repairs, since you return it to the dealership just as things start to break down. However, it locks you into a very inflexible plan and is very, very difficult to get out of a lease without a major financial hit. You can basically sub-lease it (at a loss) for the remainder of a lease or return it to the dealership early if you pay them a calculated difference so they are not losing money (again at usually a major loss).

Plus you lease new vehicles, not used ones.

As for used cars, get something Japanese. Actually even for new cars, get something Japanese, lol. Toyota, Honda, Nissan - I've had good experiences with all of them.

 

[Liesje]

See my family has always leased as well. The only car we've owned was a minivan we bought after its lease, and then it blew up all over the highway. I don't like cars and a car is always going to depreciate, so I don't get why anyone would even WANT a used car after driving it for three years. I'm fine with monthly payments. It's the same for everything else - rent, utilities, food - you pay a predetermined amount each month. If the car breaks, bring it back to the dealer. If the car sucks, lease a different one next time.

If something happens to the car, what then?

What do you mean? I think you just bring it back to the dealer you're leasing from. Like if you rent an apartment and the kitchen cabinets fall off the wall (this just happened to us), you call the landlord and they fix it.

 

[BonoIsMyMuse]

I have a 1996 Saturn that I got used in 2001. I've had some problems with it along the way, but nothing major. It gets great gas mileage and does very well in the snow. I take care of it, so it looks a lot newer, and it's paid for

Even better, Saturn service centers are very friendly. They've topped off my antifreeze, changed a headlight, and patched a tire for me for free, and whenever I've needed repairs, they always explain things in clear terms and help me figure out what's the best option for my tight budget. When I needed a new muffler, the service guy actually told me on the phone that I'd get a better price at a place like Midas.

I know already that my next car will be a Saturn. I just hope that I don't have to get it for a few more years

 

[onebloodonelife]

My dad is currently leasing a Mercury Mountaineer, and when it's up in September, he's never going back to leasing again. Just his opinion I guess, but I think the monthly payment was too high, around $600 a month or so.

I love the Japanese cars too! I have a 1991 Nissan Stanza (yes, laugh) that has 165k miles on it, and it still runs like a charm. Best part: it cost $400.

 

[indra]

I don't like cars and a car is always going to depreciate, so I don't get why anyone would even WANT a used car after driving it for three years.

Because financially, buying/keeping an older car is the better option. I have a 13 year old car I bought new -- it isn't pretty (never was though), but it has always been dependable (always starts and runs), is cheap to run, cheap to fix, cheap to insure, and I haven't had a car payment in nine years. Even with repairs I wouldn't have in a newer car I figure I save at least $2000-3000 per year over buying or leasing a new car every few years. That makes it incredibly worth it to me.

While I understand that car repairs are a pain in the ass, my advice is to determine if the repairs your car is facing are fairly normal for a car of it's age and mileage, or if they are very excessive. If they are very excessive, then look for something else. But if these repairs are fairly normal then I would say bite the bullet, fix the damned car and drive it until it dies.

This article sums up many of the reasons to keep the old car.

 

[anitram]

My feeling is also never to buy what depreciates, but there are a lot of issues with a lease.

For example, if you are still thinking of going abroad or something and say you do go in 2 years but you have 2 years left on a lease, you will take a significant financial hit. Either you will have to have somebody lease the car from you (and they will pay you a fraction of your monthly bill, you're lucky if you're getting 2/3 of it and oftentimes you'll have to give them a lumpsum payment on top of that to entice them) or you can return it to the dealership early while paying a penalty (which could run you like $3K or so at that point).

So that's the only thing I don't really like about a lease. It locks you in for a period of 3, 4, 5 years, whichever you choose and you have no good options to get out of it if something in your life plans changes.

 

[Got Philk?]

^That is the problem. I honestly want to get out of here(michigan) in 2 years when I graduate. From what she says, I think Liesje is in agreement with me here.

Would that work with a Lease? Or would we take a "large financial hit" b/c we have to move???

^^As far as fixing my car...I have put $500 into it in the past5 months already. I'd have to put another $1,500 in it now to fix it for good. That's $2000!!! How much would that help on payments??

 

[indra]

My feeling is also never to buy what depreciates

When you lease you are paying for the depreciation anyway. And at the end of the term you have absolutely nothing to show for it.

It's fine if you make a lot of money I guess....

 

[Got Philk?]

^DOH!!!

 

[indra]

[B^^As far as fixing my car...I have put $500 into it in the past5 months already. I'd have to put another $1,500 in it now to fix it for good. That's $2000!!! How much would that help on payments?? [/B]

It evens out. It's entirely possible you won't have a single repair for another year and a half. I've had a few big repair bills on my car over the years, but since paying it off the repairs have averaged less than $50 per month (that includes the big repair bills). Try to find a car with payments that low.

And my insurance costs are minimal. They wouldn't be for a new car.

 

[Bonochick]

I couldn't ever see myself leasing. Plus, having to stay within the allotted mileage of a lease would bother me. I'm such a worrier about stuff that I'd probably be nervous with every trip I took.

 

[redkat]

Not having a car payment is a wonderful feeling. Buying new while exciting makes me feel like a sucker and I don't think I'll do it again but who knows. You can buy certified used vehicles now from so many places that come with warranties and many have been company cars and gently used. I'm from an anti lease family

This is a good article that weighs the pro's and cons of each

http://www.edmunds.com/advice/buying/articles/47079/article.html

 

[Sicy]

I'm not a leaser. I never really understood why anyone would want to lease a car but this thread sheds a bit of light on that, thanks. Still, I would rather own. I've financed 2 cars in my life and were happy with them for years. I sold my first car 13 years after I bought it and still sold it for $3500.

 

[Angela Harlem]

Those things you listed, Phil, are not a reason to panic. Filters (and hoses, etc) wear out. Replacement is going to happen. Your battery is due for replacement every 18 months to two years. They aren't a reason to think your car is on the outer, or that you own a lemon. Under a warranty these items won't be covered, as they're just general consumables in a car. What do you pay for a warranty covers you for any potential faults, and chances are you won't need it. Ever salesman I've ever spoken to says leases are a bad idea, but they're not very common over here unless it's a fleet arrangement under someone's ABN. Either way, not applicable to you guys.
Second hand vs new is something that entirely depends on what you want. There's no bad choice, really.

My advice is to steer clear of leasing, check with other mechanics on what needs fixing, and find out if it's just general wear and tear or you really are looking at a car with limited k's left on it. You aren't in as bad a situation as you might think, in my rather limited opinion.

 

[DrTeeth]

I don't think I'd ever buy a new car considering it's lost half its value after you've turned the first corner. We usually buy a car that's around three years old, because it's usually well maintained (under warranty) and that's when the depreciation has lost its momentum.

I don't see the point of leasing either. Over here, it's usually done with business cars only. Also, listen to Angela Harlot.

 

[anitram]

When you lease you are paying for the depreciation anyway. And at the end of the term you have absolutely nothing to show for it.

It's fine if you make a lot of money I guess....

Yeah, all of those things are reasons not to lease.

The reason I did is because at the end of the term I had another new car and I have NEVER had to take a car in for repairs. Never. Not a day when I was inconvenienced because my car was in the shop, no out of pocket expenses on top of my lease, etc. You do PAY for these things - to me, my time was more valuable, so I did.

Phil, say you want to go abroad in 2 years, you will be pretty much screwed on a lease. Your option will be to find somebody who wants to take over your lease (and they will never pay you your full monthly amount. Say you are paying $299/month, well you're lucky if they're willing to pony up $200. Also remember that under the law YOU are still the lessee and if the take off with the vehicle to Mexico, you're stuck with the problems) or to pay the dealership to take the car off your hands (I know somebody who did this after 2 years of a 4 year lease on a Nissan and the bill was $2750.....).

Normally, I would recommend a lease only because I prefer it. But because you guys seem to really want to change your lifestyle, etc within the next couple of years I'm not so sure I'd want to be stuck with this type of commitment.

 

[Utoo]

I've owned two cars, one used & one new. My first car was a 1992 Toyota Celica, which I bought when I turned 17 in 1997. I got it for $6200 and it had 102K miles on it. I rode that thing into the ground for 8 years. I put another 50K miles on it, and in the last three years that I had it, it cost me about $2,000-2,500 to fix it. I decided to get rid of it when it needed another $2,000 of work in one shot. It's Blue Book value at the time was "N/A."

The car we got next (and have now) was a 2006 Toyota Prius. After the $3,150 tax credit, it cost us about $20K. I decided to buy new mainly because the experience of spending money repeatedly over the last three years had really turned me off from used cars. Plus, we knew we wanted this car as "a keeper," so we got one we liked & didn't care about it as an investment & worry about depreciation, etc.


My advice is to sit down and figure out what you want out of this car. As I said, we wanted the Prius as "a keeper"--it'll be the family car when kids come around, etc. But if we moved and for some reason needed a second car on top of the Prius, I'd probably buy myself a $3-4,000 crapper. That way we'd have the nice car as the family car, then the crapper for me to drive back and forth to work in. (Honestly, I'd prefer a motorcycle, but Mrs. Utoo will have none of that! )

I think it breaks down pretty easily, IMO:

1). If you find a car you like and want to keep, buy it (and get a Toyota--you'll easily get 15+ years out of it....yes, I know you live in Michigan ). Who cares about depreciation--you're buying the car to keep, not as an investment.

2). If you like the convenience of not worrying about paying for repairs, as well as the novelty of a new car every three years, lease.

3). If just you want something to get you around in the short-term and you don't know what your life plans are going to be two years out, spend $3,000 or $6,000 and get something used. You can actually find some decent Corollas, etc., in that price range.

From what I glean from your story, my opinion is that you should spend $4,000, get a used but sturdy car, and then reconsider things in 2 years when you've graduated, have more of a plan, and probably have some more cash.

 

[Got Philk?]

Those things you listed, Phil, are not a reason to panic. Filters (and hoses, etc) wear out. Replacement is going to happen.

Ok, but here's the major fix, my back tires are no longer being supported because the coil/spring that does this(not shocks, something different) have rusted out and snapped...on both sides. So, if i hit a pot hole or turn just right, the tire will fall right off. Maintenence I can handle. The battery, brakes, etc...no biggie. BUT! WHen the car starts falling apart, I think differently.

I'm not panicking. IN fact, I'm laughing about it right now and just checking things out really. Thank you all for your thoughts. It helps.

 

[Liesje]

The car's a piece of shit, really. First of all, we both hate it, always have, but kept it b/c Phil helped his dad make the payments so we have the very, very rare situation for people our age with so much debt in that we do actually own the car outright and it is titled exclusively to Phil. Like he said, this is more than maintenance work that's needed. Right now it's not drivable but we've already blown close $600 just since we've been married and the car is only worth $1500 if the person/dealer buying it doesn't think much of the problems with the rear axle.

My issues with purchasing are this - every business and finance prof I've ever had has told us outright that car loans are of the devil and the absolute worse possible way to blow money and get yourself into financial ruin. To a couple like us that only has one salary and is already 100K in debt and will be adding to it, any type of loan makes me want to hurl. Not to mention, we have no money, none. We can't even make a down payment. The other problem is that I can't justify getting another lemon because we won't be able to use the car for what we need it for. If push came to shove, there's no reason we couldn't take busses or arrange carpooling to/from work and school. What we need a car for are things like going to see Phil's family in Chicago which we go a lot, working at the Humane Society which we do at least twice a week and have to get on the highway to the absolute farthest part of town (about a 20 minute drive with zero traffic or weather). Say Phil gets a good job a year from now and it's in a rural area or smaller town where we have more of a commute to do anything, it would be nice to have on reliable car.

What we want is this - a smaller car that we can actually drive on the highway many times a week and to far away places like Chicago or Florida several times per year. What we have is a POS that's worth $1500 at most, very minimal tax returns coming in, 100K in outstanding debt, $6 in my savings account, and a slew of relatives who would laugh their asses off if we asked for financial help.

I'm not panicking now because we don't NEED two cars, or even one car. I can't imagine not having one....but then I feel like an idiot because I've never had a car and always managed to get to work, school, go on trips, etc without one. When you're in that situation, you deal with it and can't complain as half the world can't even eat diner, let alone have one or two cars. The problem comes when Phil gets these various placements for the teaching certificate he's working on. My old roommate did the same thing when we were in college and the school placed her for student teaching over an hour's drive away, with no traffic or weather. Since he really has no say in where he gets placed, we can't assume that we could live for a year or so without a car and save up because it's pretty rare that students get conveniently placed right within city limits on the bus routes.

What gets my frustrated is that I hate cars, period, so just thinking about this gives me a migraine. I know nothing about them, most of them I think should be illegal for various reasons, and I can't bring myself to feel like our society actually has created a NEED for every working adult to have their own cute little (or huge ass) car. In high school and college, I got by just fine paying others for rides and whatnot. I'd rather pay someone else for the trouble, really, which is how my parents have always operated and many of my friends, hence all the people loving their 3 year leases, etc. So what if I don't own the car after three years? What do I want with a car that's now just going to start breaking down and cost more and more money? The few cars I do like and wouldn't mind owning long term, I can't afford.

It's such a lose-lose situation b/c either way we go about this, we're going to end up blowing a LOT of money on something we care nothing about. So much for saving for more rewarding things like a home, having children, getting a dog, paying off our current debt...

 

[Got Philk?]

^ yes

what she said

 

[Utoo]

I tell ya, get a used Toyota. I drove that puppy from Washington, DC to Trenton, New Jersey and back dozens of times without problem for 6 years.....not a peep until years 7 and 8.

 

[Got Philk?]

^that would be the plan if affordable! Toyota or Honda!

 

[Utoo]

^that would be the plan if affordable! Toyota or Honda!

Yeah, there's the rub. I just did a Carmax search and plugged in a random Michigan zip code (not sure where exactly you guys are) and looked for a Toyota under ten grand (their lowest maximum). There are plenty, but none under $7,000. Looking through the paper at individual sellers may be the best bet. You don't get the absolute guarantee of a dealer, but there are laws about selling lemons. I lucked out with the Celica because the seller was the daughter of my pre-calc teacher.

 

[bonosloveslave]

Honda fan here

 

[ylimeU2]

Yeah, there's the rub. I just did a Carmax search and plugged in a random Michigan zip code (not sure where exactly you guys are) and looked for a Toyota under ten grand (their lowest maximum). There are plenty, but none under $7,000. Looking through the paper at individual sellers may be the best bet. You don't get the absolute guarantee of a dealer, but there are laws about selling lemons. I lucked out with the Celica because the seller was the daughter of my pre-calc teacher.

The lemon laws are a good point to consider if you worry about buying from an individual seller. I am familiar what the conditions are in Virginia and I just looked into Michigan's. Essentially, if you legally buy a car from anyone in state and it needs repairs four times in the first year, you can get a full refund or, in the case of dealerships, a car that is equal value to what you originally got.

However, I've never known anyone who actually pursued someone over a lemon, though. A friend of mine just looked into it, and he found out that some of the legal costs associated with it would most likely outweigh the cost of repairs.

It sounds like your car is not really worth repairing, at least, not from my perspective. If you have spent that much on it and you still need to shell out for more repairs, you could probably find something decent for about what you would be/already have put into it. If it were me, that is what I would do.

Ultimately, no one can decide for you. You just need to weigh your options on how much you need a car. If you can get by without it, don't get one. Yes, they are expensive and yes, car loans are a bitch. In my case, it was the only way I could get one, though. I had no other viable transportation. I have a relatively low monthly payment and my credit is good, so the interest rate was much better then I was expecting. I got a VW Golf that was a couple of years old through a VW dealership. It is a relabel car. I've had it for three years and had no problems whatsoever. And it gets great gas milage.

 

[Lila64]

I've had 2 Toyotas, still have an old Camry here, but that's hubby's thrash car. It's got a zillion miles on it, I don't even know. I don't drive it unless it's an emergency. Also have a Honda, and have been happy with it. Both were bought new.

You can always was a check on a used car before you buy it. Isn't it carfax.com or something? That's what we did for my mother-in-law before she bought hers. And I think the other one she bought was from a dealer, so maybe they had some sort of policy.