a loving God and the Tsunami

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joyfulgirl said:

And to those who aren't even sure if they believe in God or not yet arrogantly think they know what this God wants for another, please stop. :huh:

I'm not sure if I really believe in a God, but one thing is sure I know more about religy then many so-called people who believe in a God.....my mum is strong catholics but I don't know
I struggle with to many things
you believe in God? if yes then what are your fundamendations for your trust in God? you believe the words in the Bible?
why? it's a fact that it's written by human beings and what is your religy? if you think my answers are to personal then I can understand

but if you can't tell me the reasons or at least an idea ....... well then it's worthless argueing
 
Irvine511 said:



you are right -- i do think anger is the moral response.

Please consider the possibility that some people, through previous experiences, personal and/or global, have already been through the anger you are now feeling, and after years and years of blood, sweat, tears, contemplation, study, searching within and without, have reached a place where instead of feeling the intense anger that you are feeling they are feeling deep sadness and compassion, and are deeply moved yet simultaneously experiencing waves of insights that deepen their connection to God due to their sincerity in desiring to understand better. Try putting those shoes on. :)
 
U2Vertigoing said:



you believe in God? if yes then what are your fundamendations for your trust in God? you believe the words in the Bible?
why? it's a fact that it's written by human beings and what is your religy? i

I believe in God--not the God of any particular religion but more as a creative principle, nameless, formless yet is everything. I believe this because of personal experiences.

But I'm not actually interested in convincing anyone of God's existence. I think it's something you come to through your own searching...or not. I don't think it's bad or wrong to not believe in God. I think whatever you believe in or don't believe in ultimately serves soul's evolution.
 
ok I respect your way to believe after your personal experiences

I believe in the goodness of some people ......that there are some good people living on this wonderful earth....yes earth is wonderful only the way we're living on it sucks

I don't struggle in my believe in God because the disasters,wars, my personal experiences(I've been through a lot in my very young life) etc but more in the story how they wanted us to believe they're not looking to the facts...and people immediately believe what they're saying without much thinking
just like now, most of the people believe everything what the media says is true, while in case 75% aren't true

and I want to ask everybody please take action and do not react- become member of Unicef,Amnesty etc. or do volunteer work for people who really need it and if you're planning to go on vacation but don't know you're destination please consider about going to Africa....it's a wonderful place with wonderful people only they get not an equal chance like us all because people and countries were to busy with themself and not with other ones
 
Dreadsox said:


BEEP BEEP BEEP>....WRONG ANSWER......Play again....


Not everyone believes God wrote the bible. Inspired, yes, wrote it, no.


god wrote the bible through the prophets, it's clear he didn't take a pen, but it's his word...............you know what, that's right the main problem, many people don't give the bible the right importance, it is seen like any other book, with fully invented stories. many say where is god, well god is there, god is in the bible, there we find all his teaching. and this is not my personal point of view, this is the christian point of view. try to read the apocalypse, maybe you did it, but study it, you will see how much answers you can find there
 
U2Vertigoing said:


uhm God wrote the bible......don't think so huh:eyebrow:
the people wrote the bible, foolish people we are who says it's not an invented story??????
I believe it did happen many centuries ago but I'm sure God even didn't wrote 5% of the bible
I don't know if you know this but Jesus was a jew and he was born in March not in December...............just to take the facts clear


actually it isn't clear when jesus came to earth, we know he died around eastern, the 25 december is an invention of the roman church, just to celebrate jesus's birth, what anyway isn't recommended by the bible to do, at least not in in the pagan way like many use to do.
you say you're sure god didn't wrote 5% of the bible........this is what you think, not what the bible says, i believe what the bible says, maybe you do not, i respect it, but don't agree
 
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hmm, i don't think that just because you think it's inspired means you think it's just another book....just because someone doesn't think that the bible is perfect does not mean they do not find it inspirational or meaningful.
is it not rather audacious to claim to have the Christian Point of View? Just how many christian views have there been since CE? Are you implying that your view is THE view?
My personal opinion on this whole mess is this:
At one point humankind and God (whatever ya wanna call it) were essentially inseperable. The closest picture i can paint is that of the amerindians and their spirituality. We were one with nature, so one with God. Greed, pride, individuality (not freedom) etc took root in the "hearts" of humans and a great divide was created. Genesis provides an excellent allegory of this story. So, really we kicked God out of the garden of eden. without that spirit fully here really awful things happen. half of the diseases we currently are fighting are man-made. AIDS, chronic pain, etc etc are all results of decades of terrible pollution and man driven ambition.
Think about the opportunity that now lays at our feet. When you or I show love to another person we are inviting God back into this world. It might be fleeting, but when you show someone love you show them that ultimate spirit.
Imagine....
 
am i the only one finding this whole situation entirely difficult to believe? i'm not saying it's made up...it is just so terrible i am having a difficult time accepting and being completely moved....i feel like something is wrong with me, i should feel sadder, but i somehow find this all too unfathomable
 
blueyedpoet said:
hmm, i don't think that just because you think it's inspired means you think it's just another book....just because someone doesn't think that the bible is perfect does not mean they do not find it inspirational or meaningful.
is it not rather audacious to claim to have the Christian Point of View? Just how many christian views have there been since CE? Are you implying that your view is THE view?
My personal opinion on this whole mess is this:
At one point humankind and God (whatever ya wanna call it) were essentially inseperable. The closest picture i can paint is that of the amerindians and their spirituality. We were one with nature, so one with God. Greed, pride, individuality (not freedom) etc took root in the "hearts" of humans and a great divide was created. Genesis provides an excellent allegory of this story. So, really we kicked God out of the garden of eden. without that spirit fully here really awful things happen. half of the diseases we currently are fighting are man-made. AIDS, chronic pain, etc etc are all results of decades of terrible pollution and man driven ambition.
Think about the opportunity that now lays at our feet. When you or I show love to another person we are inviting God back into this world. It might be fleeting, but when you show someone love you show them that ultimate spirit.
Imagine....


well you know, god doesn't hide, don't believe it is impossible to have the real christian view, there mustn't be personal views, the goal is to get inside it. showing love to other persons is what i do everyday, but we don't have the power to get god in this world in, it's we, who must get in his world. it's very right what you say that all the pollutions are caused by man himself, that's why we're imperfect, and that's the reason why we must act following god's will, he promised to lead us to salvation- pain, diseases, death will be cancelled, all the bad things will be made clear by god, why shouldn't we trust it, eternal life is what god wants for us. he's giving us time, time to find him, we're not in a dark whirl
 
joyfulgirl said:


Please consider the possibility that some people, through previous experiences, personal and/or global, have already been through the anger you are now feeling, and after years and years of blood, sweat, tears, contemplation, study, searching within and without, have reached a place where instead of feeling the intense anger that you are feeling they are feeling deep sadness and compassion, and are deeply moved yet simultaneously experiencing waves of insights that deepen their connection to God due to their sincerity in desiring to understand better. Try putting those shoes on. :)

i'll certainly put those shoes on in regards to this post. it's very sincere, beautifully written, and i fully accept the fact that this is probably where you are at. and that's wonderful, and i am envious in a sense. also note that in my post i did say "i think" -- which makes it personal, and also not a statement of fact but a statement of belief. i don't mean to come across too aggressively, but i think the nature of such a forum (and the inescapable fact that i am really, really angry ... i do think it's a fact that this is the worst natural disaster certainly in my lifetime) where you have no sense of the "tone" of the argument can make things difficult. finally, your post was the first that i have come across (i think ... been a long thread ... no, Nathan 1977 said something similar, but more Biblically based, and i really respected that and said so in my comments) that has espoused arriving at peace with this catastrophe through lifelong proceses of thought and reflection. what i've heard more of is the acceptance of religious dogma as explanation and panacea, and it behooves me to challenge that. perhaps that's arrogant, but i learn much in the process, so i'm going to continue to do so.

but thank you for your post -- i do appreciate it.
 
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paxetaurora said:
I don't agree that this kind of event is inconsistent with the existence of a loving God, but I also don't agree that God is not to be questioned. Maybe I draw this more from a Jewish tradition than a Christian one, but I always liked a Jewish conception of conversation with God. The Jews I know are very comfortable with doubt, conflict, even anger as far as God goes, and they believe that "having it out" with God eventually makes their faith stronger and their relationship with God closer.

There are some great images of that kind of struggle in the OT--Jacob wrestling the angel is one of my (and Bono's, too, I think--LOL) favorite Bible stories ever. And the book of Job is almost one lengthy argument with God--carried on by Job, a righteous man who loses everything and finally wants to know why. And he does actually get some answers.

Is God "answerable" to us in the way that a child is to a parent? No, of course not. But I think that it's irresponsible of us to simply sit back and say, "Oh, whatever, it's God's will." It might well be God's will, but to not struggle with that, to not continue to ask questions of oneself and of God and of our fellow persons of faith, is a cop-out. Albert Einstein it was, I believe, who said that God would not have bestowed us with reason if God did not expect us to use it.

Thank you very much for posting this, it was quite thoughtful and enlightening! :)
 
babyman said:



actually it isn't clear when jesus came to earth, we know he died around eastern, the 25 december is an invention of the roman church, just to celebrate jesus's birth, what anyway isn't recommended by the bible to do, at least not in in the pagan way like many use to do.
you say you're sure god didn't wrote 5% of the bible........this is what you think, not what the bible says, i believe what the bible says, maybe you do not, i respect it, but don't agree

I also respect your opinion but your 100% true that it's God words? you never can't be you must look into history books and also in the bible if you read well then you'll say many things aren't correct
you believe Maria is the mother of Jesus?? you believe she was poor?? you believe in Satan?? if you believe in God you also believe in Satan.....
 
babyman said:



well you know, god doesn't hide, don't believe it is impossible to have the real christian view, there mustn't be personal views, the goal is to get inside it. showing love to other persons is what i do everyday, but we don't have the power to get god in this world in, it's we, who must get in his world. it's very right what you say that all the pollutions are caused by man himself, that's why we're imperfect, and that's the reason why we must act following god's will, he promised to lead us to salvation- pain, diseases, death will be cancelled, all the bad things will be made clear by god, why shouldn't we trust it, eternal life is what god wants for us. he's giving us time, time to find him, we're not in a dark whirl

if you believe in the bible your comment is 100% true here's an example:
Jesus was sleeping but outside there was a heavy storm the apostles were afraid and were crying and shouting for help then Jesus woke up and asked them why there're afraid....God is with them and shall lead them trough darkness and he calmed the sea......the apostles were suprised who's he, who's he that the sea listen to him?? how can son of King David do this he must have powers that are bigger then us....

but somehow I think we must trust at the goodness of some people not at God because if there's a God He won't do anything he just let the people learn by suffering but the people are foolish first there must something bad happen before they take action....
but it's the people who are bad, they start wars, most diseases and disasters come because the rich people don't care for the poor, some diseases are still unknown like cancer how do you get it? how did the first people with that disease got it or with Aids it must have started somewhere?
maybe it's a consequence of the pest that flew here around many years ago....maybe aids comes from Africa because they don't get medicins and normal treatment is hospitals or because the famine that still is going on there??
is it God's work?? I don't think so everywhere there's a explanation for only sometimes it's hard to find but it's not God's work....I do believe God or something else created earth but not the diseases it's just a result of some circumstances
if He created earth then one day He'll destroy earth....
 
it's a question of faith based on studying the bible, there mustn't be any doubts about it, there aren't any other ways to know god. you know, he doesn't stay in heaven staring at us and laughing, he's lending his hand, and it's up to us to catch it making our faith growing, going in his direction, to model our lives following his teaching, and the map to reach his place is the bible. of course maria was the mother of jesus, but on the earth.......and the devil, well, of course he does exist, where do you think comes this whole evil? the devil knows that he will be destroyed when god will bring his reign on earth, all the evil that you see is the devil's fury and nothing else
 
U2Vertigoing said:


if you believe in the bible your comment is 100% true here's an example:
Jesus was sleeping but outside there was a heavy storm the apostles were afraid and were crying and shouting for help then Jesus woke up and asked them why there're afraid....God is with them and shall lead them trough darkness and he calmed the sea......the apostles were suprised who's he, who's he that the sea listen to him?? how can son of King David do this he must have powers that are bigger then us....

but somehow I think we must trust at the goodness of some people not at God because if there's a God He won't do anything he just let the people learn by suffering but the people are foolish first there must something bad happen before they take action....
but it's the people who are bad, they start wars, most diseases and disasters come because the rich people don't care for the poor, some diseases are still unknown like cancer how do you get it? how did the first people with that disease got it or with Aids it must have started somewhere?
maybe it's a consequence of the pest that flew here around many years ago....maybe aids comes from Africa because they don't get medicins and normal treatment is hospitals or because the famine that still is going on there??
is it God's work?? I don't think so everywhere there's a explanation for only sometimes it's hard to find but it's not God's work....I do believe God or something else created earth but not the diseases it's just a result of some circumstances
if He created earth then one day He'll destroy earth....


look, you've quoted a wonderful example! look how jesus encouraged the apostoles to be sure about his father! that's how the bible brings you to god and to salvation. man himself can never heal the world, and, right, all the diseases are not from god........he created the earth, he will heal the world bringing his reign, he will give us the eternal life destroying pain and death........all the ones who died in asia, all the ones who died and are dying in wars, all the innocents who died during the whole world history, will be take back on life, at the right time. this is our loving god, why must we not trust him........ it's not fantasy, it's the truth. what would the sense of our lives be? to suffer for 75-80 years and then to die? this wouldn't be a reasonable project, god gave us life to know him, to serve his word, to live following his teaching, in return of eternal life..........isn't it a loving god enough?
 
your comment is well said but the question is; is it true, does God exist, are those stories true?
how do you know it's true? because it's standing in the bible??
I see you come from Italy, now there's an example the vatican if you've the same religy do you trust them?? because they make up a lot of untrue stories about the religy....... like satan one of those stories

Maria the mother of Jesus, how do you know that because it's standing in the bible? I'm not sure but I thought in the bible stands that Maria was poor??? how can this then because the family of Maria was rich her I also heard some people say she was a prostitue now how weird is that......
Maria was from royal origin just like Jesus, Jesus from the stock of David and Salomon Maria was from the stock of Benjamin

I've also another suprise for you the bible as we know it is put together by the heathan Roman emporior Constantin for a political reason and he destroyed other gospels where was wrote that Jesus just was a human being and not as the son of God.....
unluckily not all documents were destroyed and some were found in that documents was wrote as Jesus the human being not as Jesus son of God

I know this is kinda shocking for the people who believe in the bible because they don't know anything else but the bible........but these are the facts if you like it or not
 
Irvine511 said:


i'll certainly put those shoes on in regards to this post. it's very sincere, beautifully written, and i fully accept the fact that this is probably where you are at. and that's wonderful, and i am envious in a sense. also note that in my post i did say "i think" -- which makes it personal, and also not a statement of fact but a statement of belief. i don't mean to come across too aggressively, but i think the nature of such a forum (and the inescapable fact that i am really, really angry ... i do think it's a fact that this is the worst natural disaster certainly in my lifetime) where you have no sense of the "tone" of the argument can make things difficult. finally, your post was the first that i have come across (i think ... been a long thread ... no, Nathan 1977 said something similar, but more Biblically based, and i really respected that and said so in my comments) that has espoused arriving at peace with this catastrophe through lifelong proceses of thought and reflection. what i've heard more of is the acceptance of religious dogma as explanation and panacea, and it behooves me to challenge that. perhaps that's arrogant, but i learn much in the process, so i'm going to continue to do so.

but thank you for your post -- i do appreciate it.

I respect where you are in your anger and questioning--I've been there and cannot say for sure that I won't be there again sometime. These are huge questions with no obvious answers and it can indeed take a lifetime of contemplation to come to some deeper understanding about it that you are comfortable with and perhaps because I'm older I've had more time with it, although I don't think that time and age necessarily are the main factors here--the process is different for everyone. Keep challenging dogma, keep questioning--it's all good.
 
U2Vertigoing said:
your comment is well said but the question is; is it true, does God exist, are those stories true?
how do you know it's true? because it's standing in the bible??
I see you come from Italy, now there's an example the vatican if you've the same religy do you trust them?? because they make up a lot of untrue stories about the religy....... like satan one of those stories

Maria the mother of Jesus, how do you know that because it's standing in the bible? I'm not sure but I thought in the bible stands that Maria was poor??? how can this then because the family of Maria was rich her I also heard some people say she was a prostitue now how weird is that......
Maria was from royal origin just like Jesus, Jesus from the stock of David and Salomon Maria was from the stock of Benjamin

I've also another suprise for you the bible as we know it is put together by the heathan Roman emporior Constantin for a political reason and he destroyed other gospels where was wrote that Jesus just was a human being and not as the son of God.....
unluckily not all documents were destroyed and some were found in that documents was wrote as Jesus the human being not as Jesus son of God

I know this is kinda shocking for the people who believe in the bible because they don't know anything else but the bible........but these are the facts if you like it or not


well, maria was a poor woman, she was chosen by god to let jesus born because of her virginity, because of her humble extraction, because of her honesty. she was married to joseph the joiner, and she became jesus without having any relation with her husband before, jesus's birth was a miracle.
and yes, we can know it reading the bible, it's all a question of faith not of being gullibles. the secret is the spirit, not everyone understands the bible, it's a question of heart, the more sincere you are, the more faith you show, the more you can understand.
and the vatican.......yes, here's the matter, i don't believe in the vatican, it has many shadows above its head, the vatican's born as a mere political construction, it came out after the schism between the occidental and oriental empire of rome, no where in the bible stands something about the vatican like god's church or something like that. in the whole history the roman church was everytime involved in such political affairs, many many very dark affairs, like wars for example. in 1929 here in italy, the church and the fascism signed the so called "patti lateranensi", "lateranensi agreement" thanks to whom the church could teach religion in the schools in return of the recognition of the fascism empire like the supreme empire.............which has nothing to do with god, and as we know, to be christian means to recognise only god as our leader, not any politician. religion must not have neither a simple connection with politics. i don't know if you know dante alighieri, one of italy's best authors, in one of his operas he was speaking of " two suns who must shine with a light of their own"..........that is to say, the politics-empire is something, the religion is another thing, and they must not be connected. but that's in the bible as well. do you know what was the main error of the church? to have cancelled the name of god from the bible, which is yahweh, jehova.......not to have cancelled jesus as a human being. when jesus came to earth he was a human being, he had the spirit of his father because he came to earth to redeem us and most of all to teach the bible, to leave the sign of salvation, he died for us, he left an example for us. he served the word of his father, letting people have knowledge, he died as human being with pain, and after 3 days he woke up again and got to heaven. that's the right example to follow, if we do the same we will have the same reward, but our heaven will be the earth. in the apocalypse stands that these are the last days, all the tragedies which are happening are all prophetized by the bible, and the apocalypse says that god is going to intervene, and he will make not only the tsunami tragedy well, but all the evil happened since the world history, once forever. it might take 100 years, 200 years, maybe even less, we don't know it......but god's reign is coming. he's going to bring salvation, all we have to do is to serve him, that's why we don't have to whine when something bad happens, of course it hurts our hearts, souls, our consciences, but living with faith lets you know that there's no end, we just have to follow the right path.......god is the omnipotence, don't think at him like someone with a severe look with a pointing finger on you.........his arms are wide open and his look is made up of light
 
once you claim the bible is perfect you "loose" a lot of intellectual respectability. look at the order in which animals and humans are created in the first chapter of genesis. contrast that with the second chapter...oops, in the first two pages of the bible there is a problem
 
I thought this was an interesting piece..

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2005/01/06/angry_with_god/

"Rabbi Harold Kushner popularized this view almost 25 years ago in "When Bad Things Happen to Good People." God, Kushner argued, does not cause the miseries brought on by illness and natural disasters and accidents, and he is powerless to prevent them. Earthquakes, cancer, plane crashes -- "these events do not reflect God's choices," he wrote. "They happen at random, and randomness is another name for chaos. . . . Chaos is evil . . . because by causing tragedies at random, it prevents people from believing in God's goodness."

How an all-powerful and benevolent God can permit innocents to be massacred or suffer undeserved agonies is a question as old as monotheism itself. Kushner's answer is that God isn't all-powerful. Tsunamis happen, and for no reason at all. There is no divine calculus at work; there is simply bad luck. And so there is no reason to think hard thoughts about God when tragedy strikes. In Kushner's words, "We can be angry at what has happened to us without feeling that we are angry at God."
 
blueyedpoet said:
once you claim the bible is perfect you "loose" a lot of intellectual respectability. look at the order in which animals and humans are created in the first chapter of genesis. contrast that with the second chapter...oops, in the first two pages of the bible there is a problem

:rolleyes:

Please, tell us how this "inconsistency" causes a problem. Obvisouly, you have intellectual respectability that us bible believers don't have.
 
There are quite a few pages here and I will confess I have not read the bulk of this thread, so if I am repeating anything previously said, my apologies.

This earth was given to us by a loving God, who gave us the responsiblity of being the keepers of the earth, a responsiblity that over the course of history we have neglected. As a result of our misuse of this planet, we reap the consequence of our actions. I am not saying that natural disaters such as earthquakes are a result of mankinds irresponsible behavoir. I do think it obvious though that our planet is in the state it is in because of neglecting what God told us to do; take care of it.

Another thing to consider is that God never intended for this world to be as it is. I mean after Adam and Eve fell from God, the ground itself was cursed in that it was made hard and Adam was told he would have to work it by the sweat of his brow (or something like that). All the downfalls of humanity and the planet are directly linked to the fall of man.

As a result, I in no way think that the horrible situation in those areas hit by the tsunami is a result of people there being bad and then being punished for it. It is just a result of something that happened because the world is no longer perfect.

If anything, when things like this happen it strenghtens my faith in God. I look at what happens and realize why.
 
thacraic said:
There are quite a few pages here and I will confess I have not read the bulk of this thread, so if I am repeating anything previously said, my apologies.

This earth was given to us by a loving God, who gave us the responsiblity of being the keepers of the earth, a responsiblity that over the course of history we have neglected. As a result of our misuse of this planet, we reap the consequence of our actions. I am not saying that natural disaters such as earthquakes are a result of mankinds irresponsible behavoir. I do think it obvious though that our planet is in the state it is in because of neglecting what God told us to do; take care of it.

Another thing to consider is that God never intended for this world to be as it is. I mean after Adam and Eve fell from God, the ground itself was cursed in that it was made hard and Adam was told he would have to work it by the sweat of his brow (or something like that). All the downfalls of humanity and the planet are directly linked to the fall of man.

As a result, I in no way think that the horrible situation in those areas hit by the tsunami is a result of people there being bad and then being punished for it. It is just a result of something that happened because the world is no longer perfect.

We agree on something.
 
@babyman: I was trying to say that maria wasn't poor at all it's just a story that the leaders in that time made up because they were afraid for Maria and Jesus......
Maria is from the house of Benjamin she's from royal source ......have you looked to the pedigree of Benjamin?

and Jesus was a jewish.....he's from the pedigree of king David and king Salomon both jewish kings.......
Yahweh is hebrews for God what kind of language does the jewish have....maybe it could be hebrew????

yes, you're right about what Jesus was doing here on earth but the bible says Jesus is a human being with "superpowers" while in the lost documents they've retrieved Jesus just was a human being just like you and me without "powers"

I know Durante 'Dante' Alighieri(Divina Commedia; the journey between hell-purgatory and heaven) and he's right politic and religy doesn't match but they always will have to do with each other just look to all the wars fighted because of different religy

I also know the acopalypse my granddad used to be a priest.......
and I believe one day earth will dissappear when I don't know nobody knows that......but I think it's when the humankind destroyed earth that much they're going to die.......all the poisoned air, nucleair weapons, cutting from rainforests etc.

you're right when saying that trusting the bible is a matter of believing....you trust in the bible when you want but hey can somebody tell me how you can trust the bible while it's put together by a roman emporior and not only roman also one who was a heathen emporior(Constantin) how weird is that????
and to come back up that human being thing.....they've(the leaders in that time among Constantin) declared Jesus to a holy just 300AC before that they wouldn't have thought of that....but they did this because Constantin was a excellent emporior he saw that the the popularity of Jesus was growing and so he thought why don't we make profit of that......and don't say Constantin was a catholic because he wasn't.....he got baptised just before his dead if he was a catholic then it seems more logical that he's baptised much earlier....

don't blame me now for what I'm saying now I just ask you to forgot the bible and just ask yourself a few questions, just for a moment and try to find the answers to that question in history books then you can back to what the bible says:
who says Jesus is the son of God????? a lot of people(not me) also very, very famous people say that Jesus just was a human being not the son of God.........
other question is how accurate is the bible and how accurate is history?? is it true or is it invented?? I'm sure many passages are happen I'm also sure many things are invented.....
who says there's a God??? maybe the earth has begun with the evolution theory??
this and many other questions I haven't find an answer just like millions other people but I'm still searching for my explanation.......

I don't there's a God but at all I don't believe there isn't a God it sounds strange but I'm still on my journey to God and I'm asking your comments on these questions
 
Irvine511 said:



i mean you no disrespect, but this is exactly why i've fallen away from Christianity. standards, rulership, righteousness ... all are so beyond my experience here on earth that you might as well be writing in Aramaic. just what the fuck are you talking about? (and please don't take that personally, this is just a gut reaction coming across)

i work for a rather large cable network that all of you get in your homes, and i spent the day coordinating the movement of archived footage up to new york that will be sewn together to make a show on Tsunamis that will air next week. we're using this tragedy, and it's huge exposure, to hopefully get some big ratings. i have mixed feelings -- yes, human suffering sells, but also people want to learn from this tragedy, and what better way to learn than a 60 minute television documentary? i haven't yet shed a tear over this, but i have waves of pain and anguish, that pass, then return. all i can think about is that exquisite, anguished moment of death, the moment when the lungs fill with water and the cells scream and you want to breath but you take in salt water and dirt and sand and it burns and all you've got is blackness and bleakness and you're screaming like an animal who knows it's going to die but is thrashing its limbs against finality with all its might. like thousands of tons of burning steel and concrete falling and crushing a bunch of stockbrokers who committed the crime of getting up and coming to work on a beautiful Tuesday morning. i know these things are beyond human comprehension, and i don't know nearly enough about Karma to totally get where Martha is coming from, but i don't think it's beyond comprehension to question where, in the grand scheme of things, a supposedly loving God is when those who are supposedly made in his image are made to suffer and die, horribly, simply for being poor and living in the wrong place. i fully understand the nature of free will, and how things like genocide are man's doing, but this is something that is coming entirely God's on creation -- the Earth.

i return to the fact that all i can know is exactly what is. what is in front of me, what i hear, see, think, feel, and intuit. i see a sometimes vicious Earth filled with mostly innocents simply doing the best they can to get through each and every day, who get up each morning and hug their children and love their families and try in whatever way to simply survive and possibly improve their situation in some small way, each and every day. and for the earth to rise up and smash them like ants ... it's too horrible to contemplate, and i return to the alcholics anonymous phrase (not that i've ever been in AA): "What if not but for the Grace of God that were me." of course. i was vacationing in the Caribbean at the time. already a privileged American, my privileged status only increases, and i might love God more for sparing me, and helping me appreciate the incredible good fortune i have been born into, but that's because it wasn't me and it wasn't my children who are bloated, blue sacks of dead cells face down in a gutter in Sumatra. what this tragedy does, for me, is exacerbate the already unspeakable gap betweeen the West and the Rest, the haves and the have nothings, and for me to read this as anything other than pure, abject evil flowing either from an agnostic earth or an earth of a God who must be filled with some amount of evil, is to play into a self-justifying, feel-good, Western paradigm.

this is it, folks. the earth doesn't care. nor should it. in the end, we die alone, in our own arms, whether peacefully in our beds in a retirement community in St. Petersburg, FL, or screaming and choking on salt water in Sri Lanka. ashes to ashes, dust to dust. no better, no worse, than anyone else.

blankness. blackness. back to nothingness, on a small blue planet hurtling through a frozen universe.

I think I understand the way you feel. I also felt...well, an undescribable kind of pain and an overwhelming sense of "why??" when thinking about this tragedy. I am an agnostic, and I don't know where God fits into natural disasters like this. But I don't believe that the Earth is filled with "mostly innocents" just trying to do the best they can to get by. I see the world as a place where everyone is desperately trying to improve their own lot at the expense of other people and the environment. I've only read 3 pages of this thread so far, so I don't know whether anyone has mentioned the environment; but like many New Zealanders, I am acutely aware of the effects of human activity - of our desire to consume more goods, make more money, live easier lives etc. - on our natural environment. I recently read an article on a NZ page linking the Tsunami to what is likely to happen if we let global warming continue. I can't remember the address of this article, but basically, it was saying that unless we make drastic efforts to reduce global warming, disasters like this will become much more common in the future. When this happens, the gap between the haves and the have-nots will be even more apparent, and not only that, but it it will be a case of the rich actually making victims of the poor - we, in developed countries create the greenhouse gases that are bringing about climate change, and it is people in poorer less-developed countries that will suffer most from rising sea-levels etc. And I don't mean to be anti -American, but I am furious that the American President does not want to commit to any measures to reduce global warming when it is America that contributes so much to this phenomenon. I think that although we may not be able to understand or come to any kind of consensus or conclusion on what kind of role God had in a tragedy like this, one thing that is clear is if we continue on the path we are on now, in the future when occurences like this happen, we will not have to debate whether God caused them to come about or not. It will be abundantly clear that WE caused them through our consumerism, that we have brought about the events that are ruining the livelihoods of people in poorer countries and even killing them. I think we should take the tsunami as a warning.
 
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Here is an article on global warming that was on NZ Xtramsn a couple of months ago. The scenario it predicts is beyond frightening, and what is most disturbing about it all, to me, is that we know that we, not God, will be to blame...


Grim Climate Change Scenario for Asia

The weather predictions for Asia in 2050 read like a script from a
doomsday movie.

Except many climatologists and green groups fear they will come true
unless there is a concerted global effort to rein in greenhouse gas
emissions.

In the decades to come Asia, home to more than half the world's 6.3
billion people, will lurch from one climate extreme to another, with
impoverished farmers battling droughts, floods, disease, food
shortages and rising sea levels.

"It's not a pretty picture," said Steve Sawyer, climate policy
adviser with Greenpeace in Amsterdam. Global warming and changes to
weather patterns are already occurring and there is enough excess
carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases in the atmosphere to drive
climate change for decades to come.

Already, changes are being felt in Asia but worse is likely to come,
Sawyer and top climate bodies say, and could lead to mass migration
and widespread humanitarian crises.

According to predictions, glaciers will melt faster, some Pacific
and Indian Ocean islands will have to evacuate or build sea
defences, storms will become more intense and insect and water-borne
diseases will move into new areas as the world warms.

All this comes on top of rising populations and spiralling demand
for food, water and other resources. Experts say environmental
degradation such as deforestation and pollution will likely magnify
the impacts of climate change.

In what could be a foretaste of the future, Japan was hit by a
record 10 typhoons and tropical storms this year, while two-thirds
of Bangladesh, parts of Nepal and large areas of north-eastern India
were flooded, affecting 50 million people, destroying livelihoods
and making tens of thousands ill.

The year before, a winter cold snap and a summer heat wave killed
more than 2,000 people in India.

India At Risk

Sawyer said India, with a population of just over one billion
people, is one of the areas most threatened by climate change.

"The threat to the agricultural base for the Indian subcontinent
from drought and increased heat waves, the consequences to the
burgeoning Indian economy and the very large number of people to
feed are potentially very very substantial."

Rising sea levels will also bring misery to millions in Asia, he
said, causing sea water to inundate fertile rice-growing areas and
fresh-water aquifers, making some areas uninhabitable.

Sawyer said India and Bangladesh will have to draw up permanent
relocation plans for millions of people. "I'm afraid that's almost
inevitable."

By 2050, China will have built sea defences along part of its low-
lying, storm-prone south-eastern coast, while the north of the
country faced increasing desertification, he said.

According to the UN's World Food Programme, the Gobi Desert in China
expanded by 52,400 square kilometres between 1994 and 1999, creeping
closer to the capital Beijing.

Anwar Ali, a leading climatologist in Bangladesh, says about 15
percent of the country would be under water if sea levels rose by a
metre in the next century.

Perhaps the biggest threat to Asia in the future will be the
shortage of clean water. The WFP says Asia accounts for 60 percent
of the world's population but has only 36 percent of the globe's
fresh water.

According to the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC),
rapid melting of glaciers poses a major threat to the Indian
Subcontinent, Southeast Asia and parts of China.

Seven major rivers, including the Ganges, Indus, Brahmaputra and the
Mekong, begin in the Himalayas and the glacial melt water during
summer months is crucial to the livelihoods of hundreds of millions
of people downstream.

Rich Versus Poor

But many of these glaciers are melting quickly and will be unable to
act as reservoirs that moderate river flows. This means less water
in the dry season and the chance for more extreme floods during the
wet season.

Sawyer thinks rich countries, by far the biggest polluters, should
look after the millions at risk from climate change or suffer the
consequences that could include mass migration or trying to feed
millions made homeless by droughts and floods in a world struggling
to grow enough food.

Fears of mass migration have already prompted the Pentagon and the
Canadian Security Intelligence Service, among others, to study the
risk from climate-induced mass migration.

The Pentagon in its 2003 report looked at what might happen if the
climate changed abruptly. The result was near anarchy.

"As global and local carrying capacities are reduced, tensions could
mount around the world," it said. This could lead some wealthier
nations becoming virtual fortresses to preserve their resources.

"Less fortunate nations, especially those with ancient enmities with
their neighbours, may initiate struggles for access to food, clean
water, or energy," the report said.

Few places are more exposed to climate change than the low-lying
Maldives islands, to the west of Sri Lanka, where the highest
natural point is under 2.5 metres.

"We still face the threat of sea level rise," Maldivian President
Maumoon Abdul Gayoom said in a recent interview.

"There is encroachment of the sea on many islands, there is erosion
of our beaches," he said. In response, the Maldives is building an
island that is a metre higher than the capital Male.

Malcolm Duthie, WFP's country director in Laos, said even small
changes in weather patterns, such as a delay in the monsoon of just
a few weeks, is a threat to subsistence farmers. In Laos, he said
rains seemed to have become shorter and sharper, meaning faster run-
off and more erosion.

Such changes are also threatening millions of farmers in Indonesia,
where rapid industrialisation, slash-and-burn land clearing and
illegal logging have caused extreme weather and pollution across the
archipelago, experts say.

"The wet season is shorter than usual which has led to higher
rainfall during that brief period and sometimes caused landslides
and floods," said Indonesian weather expert Agus Paulus.

Government officials have said in the past years water levels at a
number of reservoirs in densely populated Java island are close to a
critically low level.

As countries try to adapt, it will be the poor who suffer most from
climate change, said IPCC chairman RK Pachauri in the report "Up in
smoke?" released last month.

"The impacts of climate change will fall disproportionately upon
developing countries and the poor persons within all countries," he
said, meaning the lot of millions of peasants could become far worse
than it is now.
 
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