AEON
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
Misleading cartoon - most of the negative comments in the strip are the types of jabs that come from women toward other women.
Men don't talk like that.
Misleading cartoon - most of the negative comments in the strip are the types of jabs that come from women toward other women. Men don't talk like that.
Men don't talk like that.
Concern troll - Geek Feminism WikiA concern troll is a person who participates in a debate posing as an actual or potential ally who simply has some concerns they need answered before they will ally themselves with a cause. In reality they are a critic. Concern trolling in geek feminism communities can result in continual reversion to Feminism 101 discussions in attempts to appease the troll's concerns, frustrating attempts at more serious discussion. Concern trolls are not always self-aware, they may also view themselves as potential allies who have just, oddly, never met a feminist opinion they liked.
Concern trolls can be identified primarily because they will retreat from, rather than engage with or be convinced by, answers to the questions they pose. They may repeatedly ask a certain question in feminist discussions without ever absorbing or replying to answers from previous discussions. They will often back into typical anti-feminist arguments, such as expressing concern that an argument is too "extreme" or a feminist too "strident" or even "hysterical". Another common tactic is insisting that some subjects are more important than others, for example, that media depictions of women shouldn't be criticised while violence against women continues.
Feminism 101 discussions are discussions in which the elementary ideas of feminism are discussed, often to sceptics or critics but sometimes to potential allies who simply have not been exposed to these before or have never discussed feminism with an identified feminist.
The metaphor generally does not literally mean that the discussion is equivalent to an introductory Women's Studies or Gender Studies course at undergraduate level, more that it's the level the first sets of discussion or reading one might do about feminist ideas.
Because of the potential for education of allies, feminism 101 discussions are not always harmful. However, continual insistence on receiving Feminism 101 education has these problems:
All of the above can be exhausting and demoralising for feminists and allies. Some feminist discussions limit Feminism 101 discussions to particular threads or boards, or ban it altogether. There are some dedicated Feminism 101 resources which are designed to act as a magnet for this kind of discussion to stop it taking over all feminist discussions.
- it frustrates detailed specific discussion of issues between feminists
- it continually centres the discussion around the experiences, perspectives and beliefs of men
- it plays into a sexist societal pattern of women needing to educate everyone around them on morality and etiquette on demand as a matter of thankless duty
- it plays into a sexist societal pattern of ignoring the existing hard work of women (who have written more feminist-perspective resources for men than one could get through in a lifetime)
- it allows concern trolls to take over a discussion space
Maybe you should hang out with men more. I've heard them plenty.
Sorry, but many do. And women wouldn't say such things to each other if men didn't say it first.
No way. Men are crass in many ways. But these comments above are not your typical male comments.
No way. Men are crass in many ways. But these comments above are not your typical male comments.
That's not entirely true. Women can be much meaner to each other - than men are mean to them.
I am surrounded by women in my life - sisters, wife, sister-in-laws, daughter, aunts, nieces...they constantly complain about the viciousness of other women. And for the most part - each of them generally prefer discussions with other men than with other women.
You really need to stop downplaying what women go through, and try to walk in our shoes for a moment.
In High School I lived in Boy's Homes, as a late teen I joined the Navy, I later served in the Army Infantry - and I've spent 20 years in IT (very few women). Safe to say - I've heard almost every "guy" comment out there. I promise you - most of the comments on the list I've never heard a man say...ever: You'll Never Get Laid, Fake Geek Girl, She Want to Impress Boys, Be More Feminine, You'll Never Get Laid with That Look, What Are You Wearing, Says Birth Dates of All The Members of the Band..., Was It Worth It BabyMaker.
Yes, I've heard women called whores and sluts - usually after the woman has rejected the man. And I've heard some couples struggle with a woman's career and parenting. But I've heard these comments equally from both sexes. The other comments are either made up or coming from women.
If you are going to make the human male into a caveman - then you need to be accurate about how a caveman thinks. A caveman could care less about these things in women - he just wants to have sex with whatever female is close by and get back to hanging out with the other cavemen.
Downplaying is not the same as asking for a bit of accuracy.
In High School I lived in Boy's Homes, as a late teen I joined the Navy, I later served in the Army Infantry - and I've spent 20 years in IT (very few women). Safe to say - I've heard almost every "guy" comment out there. I promise you - most of the comments on the list I've never heard a man say...ever: You'll Never Get Laid, Fake Geek Girl, She Want to Impress Boys, Be More Feminine, You'll Never Get Laid with That Look, What Are You Wearing, Says Birth Dates of All The Members of the Band..., Was It Worth It BabyMaker.
Yes, I've heard women called whores and sluts - usually after the woman has rejected the man. And I've heard some couples struggle with a woman's career and parenting. But I've heard these comments equally from both sexes. The other comments are either made up or coming from women.
If you are going to make the human male into a caveman - then you need to be accurate about how a caveman thinks. A caveman could care less about these things in women - he just wants to have sex with whatever female is close by and get back to hanging out with the other cavemen.
So don't fucking ever try to tell me again that men don't say these things.
YOU ARE WRONG.
It demonstrates that patriarchy is a cultural power structure that is negotiated at all times by all people, and that women in particular have a lot to gain or lose from it.
Translation: your personal experience means everything and mine means nothing. Which of course - only highlights the danger of bringing in subjective data into a discussion. I guess if we had the time, we could take a worldwide poll of the "things men say about women"...
In the meantime, if you're getting your data from cartoons and memes, then it's highly unlikely you're ever going to empathize with the male perspective on this issue.
I agree. That's one of the reasons I dare step into these threads.In the meantime, if you're getting your data from your own personal experience, then it's highly unlikely you're ever going to empathize with the female perspective on this issue
I agree. That's one of the reasons I dare step into these threads.
Translation: your personal experience means everything and mine means nothing. Which of course - only highlights the danger of bringing in subjective data into a discussion. I guess if we had the time, we could take a worldwide poll of the "things men say about women"...
In the meantime, if you're getting your data from cartoons and memes, then it's highly unlikely you're ever going to empathize with the male perspective on this issue.
Seriously. Way to blow your cover wide open. Okay, you believe that feminism is harmful to men. Gotcha. Now move it along folks, nothin more to see here. If theseit's highly unlikely you're ever going to empathize with the male perspective on this issue.
were sincere questions I would answer them. But I think that if they were sincere they would have appeared considerably earlier in this thread, not as part of an attempt to deflect attention from a massive downward spiral.And what is the ultimate solution here? Matriarchy or equality? If matriarchy, how would society be better? If equality - what does gender equality look like to you? Is it more than legal equality? Are genders still allowed to be unique, yet remain equal in your eyes?
This seems to be the case and I do wonder why you keep coming back to this thread, clearly not to gain perspective or share meaningful conversation, but to critique and derail? There are men's movement threads all over reddit where you would find lots of sympathetic company.You seem threatened by feminism of any kind, and I don't see that changing any time soon.
Translation: your personal experience means everything and mine means nothing. Which of course - only highlights the danger of bringing in subjective data into a discussion. I guess if we had the time, we could take a worldwide poll of the "things men say about women"...
In the meantime, if you're getting your data from cartoons and memes, then it's highly unlikely you're ever going to empathize with the male perspective on this issue.
This seems to be the case and I do wonder why you keep coming back to this thread, clearly not to gain perspective or share meaningful conversation, but to critique and derail?
Aeon's relentless desire to turn every conversation about women and feminism into a conversation about men seems to have reached it peak right about here.
I conceded subjective experience is difficult to quantify.So because it's my personal experience it doesn't count for shit?
People should not say mean things. In certain environments - saying such things will get you fired from your job. I just thought the cartoon was weak (as I think of propaganda).Does that mean you can just turn a blind eye to these things and pretend they don't happen?
So - what of the men that did not bully you? Can you empathize with their perspective?Empathising with male perspective on the issue? Where was the male empathy when they were relentlessly bullying me for being 'different'?
I conceded subjective experience is difficult to quantify.
People should not say mean things. In certain environments - saying such things will get you fired from your job. I just though the cartoon was weak (as I think of propaganda).
So - what of the men that did not bully you? Can you empathize with their perspective?
Just on the fake geek girl alone, it's painfully apparent guys often see women as invaders to what they consider their male only culture. The vitriol aimed at Anita Sarkeesian for her feminist critique of games is quite shameful. You only need to step into any online game to hear how many young males treat gamers known to be female, from Call of Duty to World of Warcraft.
At the big comic con events and stuff it is also blatantly apparent how men treat women as lesser parts of that community from the booth babes to treating female journalists attending as merely hired help at the event. Anyway as an example of all this crap, this article kinda sums up some male prejudice at least in the gamer section of geekdom.
3 Ways Women Have Ruined Video Games
I've been following this website for a while and I hope to god it's just a bunch of trolls who run it, but even so many of the views expressed I have heard from the horse's mouth as well.