Gut Feeling about NLOTH: Semi-forced Cohesion

[redhill]

this thread is shit at best. period.

there's no need for an entire new thread about a topic thats been discussed ad nauseum for 6 months now because YOU have a gut feeling based on nothing.

Does THAT make sense? Do you see the logic in that?

Oh, and by the way, the feeling is based on the reviews as well as post 2000 U2 output... It is not based on "nothing."

I guess I should not feed the trolls...

 

[redhill]

sure.

"sure" = I can't back up my attack so I will pretend to be disinterested

 

[medley]

I don't necessarily disagree with you. But since AB is so vastly superior to HTDAAB, and if what you say above is true, then cohesion is much more important than diversity. And therefore you defeat your own point about cohesion not being all that important.

What about the AB's songs are just superior to the HTDAAB's ones? Diversity and cohesion are not that important and if these aspects were at least for me I would probably prefer HTDAAB over AB. Indeed, as I previously said the former aspect is more important for me. So no I don't think I defeat my own point here...

 

[bram]

What about the AB's songs are just superior to the HTDAAB's ones? Diversity and cohesion are not that important and if these aspects were I would probably prefer HTDAAB over AB. Indeed, as I previously said the former aspect is more important for me. So no I don't think I defeat my own point here...

While we could get into individual songs, there isn't really a need. AB is widely considered to be a "Great Album". HTDAAB not only fails to receive anything close to that recognition, but it is generally viewed as a misstep. See: any NLOTH reviews for confirmation. And I'm sure a lot of people here will assert this in even stronger terms.

But at the end of the day, if you don't consider AB to be a superior record, then I think this specific conversation is at a standstill.

 

[PowerSurge]

Oh, and by the way, the feeling is based on the reviews as well as post 2000 U2 output... It is not based on "nothing."

I guess I should not feed the trolls...

Yeah, the "trolls". Please. Spare me. Anything but.

The thread is unnecessary and ultra repetitive....regardless of your gut feeling, or your logic, or what you base it on. My initial post was just a joke in response to another poster's very intelligent post. You felt the need to defend your baby (the thread) and rope me into this argument. Who's really the troll?

Don't think that you can post a ridiculous thread topic that's actually been spoken about in numerous other threads for months and not have people display their displeasure for it. There's already too many duplicated weak threads on this board.

 

[medley]

Of course I consider that AB is a superior album (because it has better songs) and I know that a lot of people here are inclined to bash HTDAAB because it is not very cohesive. That's exactly the reason why I'm saying that making such an opinion based only on this point is quite unfair, as diversity is also a very important point that should be taken into account as much as cohesion.

 

[Irishteen]

Cohesion doesn't make an album great, songs do. But cohesion improves an album and makes it more than the sum of its part.

Bomb plays like a collection of songs, there's nothing to be gained from listening to the songs all at once, or in any order it just equals the sum of its parts.
TUF benefits so much from its atmosphere and the songs feel like they belong together, same with TJT and AB.

Of course songs are what matters most but cohesion adds to an album and can be what makes a great record amazing

 

[bram]

Of course I consider that AB is a superior album (because it has better songs) and I know that a lot of people here are inclined to bash HTDAAB because it is not very cohesive. That's exactly the reason why I'm saying that making such an opinion based only on this point is quite unfair, as diversity is also a very important point that should be taken into account as much as cohesion.

That's definitely a fair statement--it's certainly important to avoid overemphasizing any specific aspect as being "the key" to a great album. I think that "cohesion" is a hot topic now because a common fan opinion on the last 2 records is that they have some great tunes, but it didn't all come together the way it should have (this is voiced especially often for HTDAAB). I think I was misunderstanding your ultimate point, which seems to be that song strength is probably more important than cohesion, and is more/equally responsible for any quality differences between the records. I can definitely get behind that.

Another key difference between AB and HTDAAB (and is loosely tied into NLOTH cohesion issues) is album mood. I think there is a significant relationship between "mood" and cohesion, and it appears that NLOTH may have addressed this much more successfully than U2's most recent output.

 

[redhill]

Yeah, the "trolls". Please. Spare me. Anything but.

The thread is unnecessary and ultra repetitive....regardless of your gut feeling, or your logic, or what you base it on. My initial post was just a joke in response to another poster's very intelligent post. You felt the need to defend your baby (the thread) and rope me into this argument. Who's really the troll?

Don't think that you can post a ridiculous thread topic that's actually been spoken about in numerous other threads for months and not have people display their displeasure for it. There's already too many duplicated weak threads on this board.

How is the topic ridiculous? AGAIN, there has been some insightful discussion.

Also, I'm not really not defending "my baby" as much as just irritated with your irrational and bogus attacks.

On top of that, I had asked you to back up your statement about there having been tons of other threads like this (and it being ultrarepetitive.)

This is something that you OBVIOUSLY cannot do. I would say, at this point, put up and back your WEAK BS statement or shut up.

Is everything you spout hot air or can you logically defend your argument with facts? Where are all of these other threads about this exact topic?

Hmmm?

 

[ahittle]

Well, the onset of digital recording has made this difficult across the board. An album can sound like anything you want, so it's hard to resist the temptation. Also, the luxury of spending years on one project will hurt the cohesion.

But my favorite U2 albums definitely have a vibe - you can feel the rooms they recorded in.

 

[donkeytimes]

I don't see the issue with the original statement here.

I think many great points have been made. Digital recording has made things oh so easy to transport from one location to the next. This can be good or bad...but it def. isn’t the days of reel to reel.

U2 doing a more cohesive effort is what the majority of what us super fans want, this includes getting the vibe/mood right. Bomb and All That You Can't didn't really grab the feel of the room if you ask me. Were they HORRID albums? My answer would be “no.”

Let's just cut the bull shall we, we want U2 to just get things closer to the mark on the new record. We just don’t want good songs. I don’t want the success of the album to be hinged on if the lead single is catchy like Vertigo. Mind you its ok if U2 wants success, I understand they still want to change the world and sell massive units to the kids and parent set. Its not rotten if they do achieve success, but its always a two way street.

The Atomic Bomb record was only popular really because of Vertigo, much like Coldplay’s latest was saved by the lone tune “Viva la Vida” or whatever it is called, who recalls the lead single “Violet Hill?” I am trilled U2 and bands like Coldplay are now trying make albums from start to finish. Coldplay as mentioned above got burned when one song was latched onto as a hit, much like Vertigo. Those are the breaks of having such a powerful hit. It might do us super fans justice that “BOOTS” wasn’t a massive hit off the bat, much like “Fly” back in the day. It gives other songs a chance to hit the mark...or it gives the album the chance to sell just because its "art" see Radiohead for an example.

Tour sales and merchandise are what carries bands these days anyway. I have a feeling if a smart album is made; the hits will come in time in some form or another. See again Achtung Baby.

As for me, I want to hear some of the introspective songs that have been scrapped or are being held for the supposed second/EP release coming in 2010 per Bono. Those tunes could be very interesting esp. for those who like Passengers more melodic moments and Zooropa's quieter moments.

 

[BVS]

This thread is exactly why I think new threads should be limited...

Now we're judging albums based on "gut feelings" due to reviews.

I am also guessing that, although it may initially feel like a "complete" album (in a way HTDAAB, and to a lesser extent, ATYCLB, did not), some of this completeness will have been forced through two purposeful methods.

Are you saying that you think HTDAAB had more cohesion than ATYCLB? If so, this thread makes even less sense. Bomb is probably their worse album when it comes to "cohesion" even Bono will admit that, it's a collection of songs. Maybe your definition of "cohesion" is different. That and the fact that the album isn't out is why this thread is pretty silly.

 

[mikal]

Cohesion doesn't make an album great, songs do. But cohesion improves an album and makes it more than the sum of its part.

Bomb plays like a collection of songs, there's nothing to be gained from listening to the songs all at once, or in any order it just equals the sum of its parts.
TUF benefits so much from its atmosphere and the songs feel like they belong together, same with TJT and AB.

Of course songs are what matters most but cohesion adds to an album and can be what makes a great record amazing

right on the money!

 

[teebee]

Cohesion can create something akin to a classic novel versus a collection of 10 great short stories. Is there a short story collection that compares to a War and Peace, for example? No. To be a great album, it must be cohesive. Otherwise it's a bunch of songs.

 

[Needle_Chill]

I listen to albums like ATYCLB and HTDAAB and I find myself skipping between songs, skipping ahead and back, and thoroughly not enjoying the album as much as I'd like. If I listen to a song from HTDAAB on shuffle for example, great, but albums like AB and UF I can stick on for an afternoon and enjoy as a piece of work.

Cohesion isn't important right off the bat. Mainly, when an album comes out I'm too interested in the songs themselves, but after a while you notice cohesion, and it's what contributes to an album's staying power, it's what keeps you coming back.

This album, from all accounts, is more cohesive then the last two, and that bodes well for it being an album I'll be listening to in 10 years.

 

[powerhour24]

Lyrical cohesion if it works, isn't forced. While it was produced over many sessions, it seems like most of the actual recording came from the Dublin and last second London sessions, Morocco is where a lot of it started to be written but most of the recording from that was demo stuff. NLOTH appears to have an eclectic mix of sounds (AB did too) and callbacks to previous material, but it definitely appears to dwell on similar themes and explorations. It might not be the top to bottom exploration of a country/contrasting that interest with critical lyrics like JT, or the push for something new and the darkness that stems from that the way AB is both musically and lyric-wise. But it seems like NLOTH will have its very own brand of cohesion.

Also, AB was produced over many sessions as well.

 

[bram]

Cohesion can create something akin to a classic novel versus a collection of 10 great short stories. Is there a short story collection that compares to a War and Peace, for example? No. To be a great album, it must be cohesive. Otherwise it's a bunch of songs.

Brilliant analogy.

 

[shart1780]

Does anyone know what the third song featuring the "let me in the sound line" is?

 

[bram]

I listen to albums like ATYCLB and HTDAAB and I find myself skipping between songs, skipping ahead and back, and thoroughly not enjoying the album as much as I'd like. If I listen to a song from HTDAAB on shuffle for example, great, but albums like AB and UF I can stick on for an afternoon and enjoy as a piece of work.

Cohesion isn't important right off the bat. Mainly, when an album comes out I'm too interested in the songs themselves, but after a while you notice cohesion, and it's what contributes to an album's staying power, it's what keeps you coming back.

This album, from all accounts, is more cohesive then the last two, and that bodes well for it being an album I'll be listening to in 10 years.

Right on . I think this is why HTDAAB was praised so highly right off the bat and is now criticized so strongly.

 

[bram]

Does anyone know what the third song featuring the "let me in the sound line" is?

Yeah I was wondering about that too--I'm guessing it's in Breathe or Crazy Tonight. Actually--I just had a vague recollection of a review quoting Breathe that had this line in there...but I might just be delirious.

 

[shart1780]

To me Zooropa is one of U2's most enjoyable albums because it's so cohesive. The funny thing is the songs on it aren't very consistently great IMO. A album can have a couple stinkers but as long as it maintains a certain feeling of atmosphere it's very enjoyable.

 

[last unicorn]

An album isn't cohesive for me if I have to skip songs. I skip songs on many U2 albums. Honestly, for me, ATYCLB is one of their most cohesive albums, simply because it has a certain atmosphere. It's more than a collection of songs. I think cohesion is something that has to come naturally and is in the end subjective. I find cohesion in things other see as not cohesive, so I don't think it can be forced. Everyone experiences it differently.

 

[redhill]

This thread is exactly why I think new threads should be limited...

Now we're judging albums based on "gut feelings" due to reviews.





Are you saying that you think HTDAAB had more cohesion than ATYCLB? If so, this thread makes even less sense. Bomb is probably their worse album when it comes to "cohesion" even Bono will admit that, it's a collection of songs. Maybe your definition of "cohesion" is different. That and the fact that the album isn't out is why this thread is pretty silly.

No, I'm not saying that at all. I'm clearly saying the opposite if you will simply read what I wrote.

Also, quite frankly, I'm getting tired of people attacking this thread. Some people are just so sad.

 

[Muldfeld]

An album isn't cohesive for me if I have to skip songs. I skip songs on many U2 albums. Honestly, for me, ATYCLB is one of their most cohesive albums, simply because it has a certain atmosphere. It's more than a collection of songs. I think cohesion is something that has to come naturally and is in the end subjective. I find cohesion in things other see as not cohesive, so I don't think it can be forced. Everyone experiences it differently.

I agree. Song quality over cohesion, please. Radiohead's Kid A may be cohesive, but "Treefingers" sucks!

Please noooooooooooo...not 3 songs. I can't stand that line "let me in the sound"..it really gives me the shits. It spoiled GOYB and will probably spoil Fez - Being born

"Let me in the sound" was the only bloody part I liked.

I don't have a problem because I think the songs will be different enough. I'm excited by the more artistic approach. What I think is messing things up is U2 trying to play it safe in 3 of the album's songs, as Neil McCormack recently and brilliantly noted. Bono talking about himself and using phony self-deprecation to excuse his self-absorption. This is beyond unhealthy, Bono; get a psychologist!
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[purpleblackeye]

Yeah I was wondering about that too--I'm guessing it's in Breathe or Crazy Tonight. Actually--I just had a vague recollection of a review quoting Breathe that had this line in there...but I might just be delirious.

per Neil McCormick's review, the lyrics to Breathe: "I found grace inside a sound / I found grace, it's all that I found / And I can breathe".

 

[PowerSurge]

This thread is exactly why I think new threads should be limited...

Now we're judging albums based on "gut feelings" due to reviews.

according to the creator of this thread, there is no logic in what you just pointed out and what I did earlier in the thread.

I love when people start talking about logic regarding a thread about "gut feelings" .....just about as ridiculous as you can get.

No, I'm not saying that at all. I'm clearly saying the opposite if you will simply read what I wrote.

Also, quite frankly, I'm getting tired of people attacking this thread. Some people are just so sad.

You're getting tired of it because what we are saying is true. The thread is weak and the topic has been discussed at great lengths over and over again in multiple threads.

Again, I wouldn't even be wasting my time responding to your meaningless posts if it weren't for your initial snide and unnecessary attack in the first place.

I'll look forward to your next great thread: "Gut Feeling about NLOTH leak"

 

[BVS]

No, I'm not saying that at all. I'm clearly saying the opposite if you will simply read what I wrote.

Ok, well that's why I was asking a question, the wording was a little odd. Thanks for clearing that up...

Also, quite frankly, I'm getting tired of people attacking this thread. Some people are just so sad.

That being said, you have to admit that it's a little silly to get worked up enough to start a thread on a gut feeling over one review...

You have one person's opinion of a one time listen.

Plus the idea of "forced cohesion" is pretty subjective. I just think the thread is premature and not very thought out...

 

[BVS]

What I think is messing things up is U2 trying to play it safe in 3 of the album's songs, as Neil McCormack recently and brilliantly noted. Bono talking about himself and using phony self-deprecation to excuse his self-absorption. This is beyond unhealthy, Bono; get a psychologist!
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Exactly where does Neil say any of this?

 

[WaltDisney]

All of this conjecture and hearsay comes down to one main point of consideration:

What is your idea of cohesion? If one mood, one theme and one particular sound is your idea of cohesion then this album may well feel a little disjointed to you. However, if you (like me) feel that cohesion comes from how the album leads you into certain sections, moods, themes etc then this album will feel extremely cohesive to you.

What I mean by that is an album can feel like a journey, or it can feel like a whole 'piece'. This album to me feels like an emotional trip, leading you from one mood to the next, as opposed to just jumping around from sound to sound & mood to mood. It starts of very atmospheric, soulful yet subdued and claustrophobic in it's production values. However, it then breaks open in 'Crazy Tonight' and the rush you feel from such a beautiful, straightforward hook is amplified because you've had to work for it so hard with the first half of the album. Then it just hand the hooks to you on a platter for a couple of songs - this is enjoyable and easy - it is important to note, these songs (SUC, cRAZY tONIGHT) are not bad songs. Yes, they are poppy songs, but this is welcome and almost euphoric next to the first half. I dislike HTDAAB and some of ATYCLB so trust mje when I say, these are good pop songs. Reviews will tell you otherwise but these are glorious songs that bring a bit of joy to the album, a bit of that Beautiful Day-esque pump your fists in the air.

Then it slows back down and you feel yourself slipping back 'into the sound'. Like you have reached the middle point of the horizon, now you are slipping back into the grey.

It's cohesive in the sense that it takes you on the journey by the hand and all you can do is let it and be completely submerged.

Whether or not it is indeed a classic remains to be seen. Only time will tell, it is definately close though.

 

[bram]

per Neil McCormick's review, the lyrics to Breathe: "I found grace inside a sound / I found grace, it's all that I found / And I can breathe".

That's it! Nice find. Not the exact same lyric but that has to be the 3rd one.