Where did N korea get it's nukes from???? - U2 Feedback

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Old 04-13-2003, 07:11 AM   #1
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Where did N korea get it's nukes from????

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/asi...ic/2339663.stm



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American intelligence officials say that Pakistan was a major supplier of critical equipment for North Korea's nuclear weapons programme, according to US newspaper reports.

It comes after Washington revealed that North Korea had apparently admitted pursuing a nuclear weapons programme despite signing an agreement in 1994 to abandon its research effort.

Now the problem appears to have been compounded with the revelation in the New York Times that Pakistan - a key ally of the United States in the war against terrorism - has been an important contributor to the North Korean programme.

Arms control experts have long suspected some sort of linkage between the weapons programmes of Pakistan and North Korea.

Pakistan clearly has the bomb, and some US officials believe that North Korea may now have nuclear weapons as well.

Nuclear ties

Both countries have sought to develop long-range ballistic missiles to carry their warheads.


The US revealed evidence of North Korea's nuclear programme


Both have also had close ties with China - seen by many experts as a key exporter of nuclear and missile know-how.

Suspicions are one thing but now the Americans seem to have concluded that they have hard evidence showing Pakistan's support for North Korea's nuclear weapons programme.

It all seems to be tied up with the information that prompted Washington to confront North Korean diplomats earlier this month.

That encounter appears to have resulted in an uncharacteristic admission from Pyongyang that it does indeed have a nuclear weapons programme.

The Americans said that North Korea was trying to obtain large quantities of high-strength aluminium for centrifuges that are used to enrich uranium to provide bomb-making material.

Key components

The Americans suspect that Pakistan has given North Korea critical help here - perhaps even the gas centrifuges themselves.


Nuclear co-operation reportedly pre-dates Musharraf


This help is said to have started in the late 1990s, some two years before General Pervez Musharraf took power.

But it appears to have continued, perhaps even beyond 11 September last year.

Pakistan embassy officials in Washington have denied the allegations.

But the new US intelligence assessment suggests that one of America's principle allies in the war against terrorism has been an important contributor to the nuclear weapons programme of a member of what President Bush calls the "axis of evil".

It is a reminder yet again that real life is far more complex than the simple slogans used to market the Bush administration's policies abroad.



You want to start on the war of terror.....I know a good place to start


This is ridiculous a country can posses WMD"s from a program funded by iran and iraq, proliferate them, train terrorists and STILL be a US ALLY



I"M SICK OF THE BULLSHIT from this administration.
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Old 04-13-2003, 11:04 AM   #2
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But it's useful. So it doesn't matter how it is the largest harrbinger of terrorists, nuclear proliferator, human rights disaster, and known to massacre dissidents or non-muslims.
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Old 04-13-2003, 01:16 PM   #3
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Interesting indeed, but to "suspect" that "perhaps" it "appears" Pakistan is guilty is kind of vague, no?
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Old 04-13-2003, 02:39 PM   #4
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Originally posted by the olive
Interesting indeed, but to "suspect" that "perhaps" it "appears" Pakistan is guilty is kind of vague, no?
Actually this article from bbc is pretty unequivocal it says pakistan is guilty of of it.


"Suspect"..refers to the centrifuge tubes only.


and "appears" only refers to cooperation post september 11th


If you do a web search on this topic you will find a myriad of articles on it..I just stumbled across this one as I was looking for some other info.


Olive....The Indian government has been saying that pakistan has been proliferating weapons since the early 90's. No one seemed to listen then...and now when Us government sources say it..the administration is ignoring it now.



Pakistan does have clear terror ties and has WmD's and if they are proliferating that technology they are guilty of far more ( on top of other heinous acts) than iraq ever was.
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Old 04-13-2003, 03:40 PM   #5
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It wouldn't suprise me if it were true. They got them from someone I guess.

Who gave Pakistan the nukes? I seem to remember my beloved Canada having something to do with this, though I could be wrong.
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Old 04-14-2003, 03:34 PM   #6
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Well, guys...do you want me to name the country that was first to get nuclear weapons, the only to use it, where it all started?
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Old 04-14-2003, 04:05 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by the olive
It wouldn't suprise me if it were true. They got them from someone I guess.

Who gave Pakistan the nukes? I seem to remember my beloved Canada having something to do with this, though I could be wrong.
All i know is that the leading Pakistan Nucleair scientist got his education in the Netherlands.
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Old 04-14-2003, 04:08 PM   #8
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Originally posted by ALEXRUS
Well, guys...do you want me to name the country that was first to get nuclear weapons, the only to use it, where it all started?
It all started with Nazi- German scientists,...
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Old 04-14-2003, 04:09 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rono


All i know is that the leading Pakistan Nucleair scientist got his education in the Netherlands.
Oh, dear. You too! U also have nuclear weapons?!!
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Old 04-14-2003, 04:18 PM   #10
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Originally posted by ALEXRUS


Oh, dear. You too! U also have nuclear weapons?!!
No, but we have a lot of knowledge on this subject,...and we have two little nucleair power stations.
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Old 04-14-2003, 04:32 PM   #11
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Some people here forgot how important Pakistan has been in finding members of Al Quada. At the current time Pakistan cooperation to find Al Quada is more important than allegations about how Pakistan might of helped North Korea's nuclear program. North Korea is not involved in the war on terrorism by the way. Also, a lot of these events happened long before the Bush Administration was in office, so your blame, if it is warrented, is partly mis-placed. The article does not mention Iran and Iraq helping Pakistan, so I'm not sure where your getting that from.

Iraq was invaded and overthrown because its past behavior plus weapons of mass destruction were to much of a threat to the region and the world. Iraq has invaded and attacked four different countries in the past 20 years. Pakistan has not invaded any countries in the past 20 years. That alone shows the light years of difference between Iraq and Pakistan. Also the fact that Iraq has used weapons of mass destruction on more occasions than any other country in history, would be another reason action was needed. To the best of my knowledge, Pakistan has never used WMD before.
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Old 04-14-2003, 05:23 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
Pakistan has not invaded any countries in the past 20 years.
No, they merely promote state sponsored terrorism against India.
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Old 04-14-2003, 08:43 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
Some people here forgot how important Pakistan has been in finding members of Al Quada. At the current time Pakistan cooperation to find Al Quada is more important than allegations about how Pakistan might of helped North Korea's nuclear program. North Korea is not involved in the war on terrorism by the way. Also, a lot of these events happened long before the Bush Administration was in office, so your blame, if it is warrented, is partly mis-placed. The article does not mention Iran and Iraq helping Pakistan, so I'm not sure where your getting that from.

Iraq was invaded and overthrown because its past behavior plus weapons of mass destruction were to much of a threat to the region and the world. Iraq has invaded and attacked four different countries in the past 20 years. Pakistan has not invaded any countries in the past 20 years. That alone shows the light years of difference between Iraq and Pakistan. Also the fact that Iraq has used weapons of mass destruction on more occasions than any other country in history, would be another reason action was needed. To the best of my knowledge, Pakistan has never used WMD before.
I love you sting but your clearly out of your area of expertise here


Pakistan has occupied indian territory in kashmir and continues to do so...so your wrong about the invasion issue.


There is a reason that you find those al qaeda terrorists in pakistan most of them were trained in pakistan and al qaeda is still rumored to be training in concert with other terror camps. There is MASS popular support for bin laden and al qaeda in pakistan.


General mushareff in his address to the pakistani people openly said that his major reason for helping the US was for mediation on the kashmir issue.



Like I said....all the reasons you invaded iraq for...are visibly present in pakistan.


WMD's...they got em...and they continue to threaten india with them...the world's largest democracy.


terror camps....pakistan has 10x ( conservative number...very conservative number) more terror camps than iraq. And still has failed to stop cross border terror. They dont' want to stop cross border terror because in fact in orcer for mushareff to stay popular he can't do it. So they are a terrorist state


Repressive military dictatorship...they got one.


support for rogue regimes....originally put up the taliban so that they would have a "strongly islamic neighbor"

nuclear proliferation...guilty

So sting are you telling me that pakistan can harbor other terrorists...as long as they hand over al qaeda terrorists? They can proliferate nukes as long as they hand over al qaeda terrorists...they can support regimes that actually will harbor terrorists as long as they hand over al qaeda members?

.....I thought this was a war on terror?..not just al qaeda..maybe we should change the name to "war on countries that don't hand over the specific terrorists we're looking for".



The article doesn't mention it...but I've read it...those countries funded pak's nuclear program in the hope of creating the "islamic bomb". I'm sure you can do a google search and come up with some info.



sting..I blame bush for clearly being a hypocrite when it comes to dealing with pakistan plain and simple.
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Old 04-14-2003, 08:43 PM   #14
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Anitrim,

"No, they merely promote state sponsored terrorism against India."

As bad as that is, its not nearly as bad as unprovoked invasion and annexation of territory which Saddam had a habbit of doing. There is a big difference.
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Old 04-14-2003, 09:07 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
Anitrim,

"No, they merely promote state sponsored terrorism against India."

As bad as that is, its not nearly as bad as unprovoked invasion and annexation of territory which Saddam had a habbit of doing. There is a big difference.
sting read my above post..they have indian territory occupied. they invaded and took it..you may even say right now...Pakistan is commiting an illegal annexation

also sting this is an incident I point to a lot

in 1971..in order to create bangladesh Pakistan muredered 3 million indians.....your telling me that's worse than anything saddam did?...guess who was head of the CIA when that happened....Bush sr.
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Old 04-14-2003, 10:11 PM   #16
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Arun V,


"I love you sting but your clearly out of your area of expertise here"

Really, and just what is my area of expertise? I don't personally know anyone here at FYM except one person and so I don't make any claims to know more or less than anyone here about anything. I approach FYM from the position that everyone here is equal and opinion should be considered.

"Pakistan has occupied indian territory in kashmir and continues to do so...so your wrong about the invasion issue."

I never said Pakistan had not invaded any countries in its entire history, just that they had not invaded any countries in the past 20 years regardless of ones position on whether their occupation of part of kashmir is legal or not. By the way, when Pakistan invaded Kashmire in 1947, it was actually not part of India at the time, although its leader quickly decided to unite with India in the hopes of getting India's help to push Pakistan out.

"There is a reason that you find those al qaeda terrorists in pakistan most of them were trained in pakistan and al qaeda is still rumored to be training in concert with other terror camps. There is MASS popular support for bin laden and al qaeda in pakistan."

Most Al Quada personal were trained in Afghanistan not Pakistan. Its true that the Taliban grew out of religious schools in West Pakistan, but not Al Quada. The reason many Al Quada have been found in Pakistan is because they have fled the US invasion of Afghanistan. There is popular support for bin laden and al qaudea in certain area's of Pakistan, but most of the militant support is really found among about 10% of the population. I know this from having spoke to a Pakistani women I met the last time I was in Dublin and other things I have read. The Government of Pakistan has been a huge help in rooting out Al Quada. Pakistan was also supportive of US efforts against the Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan in the 1980s.

"General mushareff in his address to the pakistani people openly said that his major reason for helping the US was for mediation on the kashmir issue."

Well mediation of the Kashmir issue would not be a bad thing at all, but realize there are many other reasons why Mushareff is helping the USA to include succeeding in destroying radical elements that threaten his government and peace in Kashmir.

"Like I said....all the reasons you invaded iraq for...are visibly present in pakistan."

Uh no, not even close. Were talking past behavior, geographic proximity to important area's, and military capability.

Past behavior, Pakistan has not invaded and attacked 4 countries with its armed forces in the past 20 years like Iraq has. Yes, in the first months of its formation, always a chaotic period for any country, Pakistan invaded Kashmire, that was in 1947. So if you want to go back 60 years, you can list one unprovoked invasion by Pakistan. Iraq has done 4 of these in the past 20 years.

Has Pakistan ever used WMD on the battlefield? I'm not totally sure but I think the answer to that is NO. Has Iraq used WMD on the battlefield, YES. In fact, Iraq has used WMD on the battlefield more times than any country in history.(with the possible exception of some countries during World War I)

Another difference that Pakistan has with Iraq is that it is not geographically situated close to nearly 70% of the worlds energy supplies like Iraq is. It is one reason why for the world at large, stability and security is more important in the Persian Gulf than on the Indian Sub-Continent. Not that its not important in Pakistan or India, but one has to pick where they apply limited resources and the Persian Gulf is higher up in terms of security importance for most of the rest of the world.

In the last area of military capability, Iraq prior to the recent 2003 Gulf War was roughly comparable to Pakistans military in terms of numbers. Pakistan has not been under a worldwide weapons embargo so it does have some better quality weapons. In addition, Pakistan does have nuclear weapons which were built to counter India's rather than terror and aggression like Saddam would use his. But despite having WMD, there is one huge difference with Iraq on this issue, Pakistan has never used WMD while Iraq has used WMD more times than any country in history.

Pakistan is also not in violation of 17 UN resolutions passed under the most serious rules that allow the use of force to bring about compliance of those resolutions, CHAPTER VII RULES.

So clearly, most of the reasons the USA invaded Iraq are NOT visibly in Pakistan at all.



"terror camps....pakistan has 10x ( conservative number...very conservative number) more terror camps than iraq. And still has failed to stop cross border terror. They dont' want to stop cross border terror because in fact in orcer for mushareff to stay popular he can't do it. So they are a terrorist state"

This might be true to some extent, but they are involved in a 50 year old dispute, their not trying to destroy all things Western and create an Islamic super state like Al Quada. Were concerned about International Terrorist first and formost. Most of these terrorist in Pakistan are still fighting over the chaos that came about from the independence of India and Pakistan 56 years ago from the UK.

More importantly, the invasion of Iraq was not because of the number of terror camps that existed in Iraq or because of Saddams past support of terrorism, it was because of Saddams own use of terror and aggression in conjunction with his possession of weapons of mass destruction.

"Repressive military dictatorship...they got one."

Saddam's regime in Iraq makes Pakistans current "military dictatorship" look like the Mickey Mouse Club. For a full in depth look at Saddam's regime, pick up a copy of Kenneth Pollack's THE THREATENING STORM.

"support for rogue regimes....originally put up the taliban so that they would have a "strongly islamic neighbor" "

Actually put up the Taliban to take care of or keep at bay the Northern Alliance so Pakistan could concentrate on its security problems with India.


"nuclear proliferation...guilty"

Possibly with a country that has also not invaded anyone in 50 years.



"So sting are you telling me that pakistan can harbor other terrorists...as long as they hand over al qaeda terrorists? They can proliferate nukes as long as they hand over al qaeda terrorists...they can support regimes that actually will harbor terrorists as long as they hand over al qaeda members?"

Realistically, the answer to the first question right now is yes. Al Quada threatens the west, the terrorist in Kashmire although evil do not threaten the west or the rest of the world in the way that Al Quada does. More attention can be payed to Kashmire terrorist once the USA has gotten everything it needs from Pakistan in regards to Al Quada. Catching Al Quada is far more important from a security point of view to the west then the Kashmire terrorist.

2nd part of the question, I have seen no evidence that Pakistan is currently in 2003, helping anyone develop a nuclear weapon.

3rd part of the question, Pakistan is not currently supporting any regimes that harbor terrorist. In fact Pakistan just helped us to destroy one called the Taliban.


".....I thought this was a war on terror?..not just al qaeda..maybe we should change the name to "war on countries that don't hand over the specific terrorists we're looking for"."

Its a war on international terror directed against the west. It is not a war on every single local dispute that could be construed as involving some type of terrorism. We would be sending troops into Spain if that was the case.

"sting..I blame bush for clearly being a hypocrite when it comes to dealing with pakistan plain and simple."

The Bush administration has not been hypocritical in regards to its relations with Pakistan. It has precisely the right policy in regards to Pakistan and has made great gains in its pursuit of Al Quada because of this. This has saved an unknowable number of lives from terrorism.
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Old 04-14-2003, 10:30 PM   #17
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Arun,

"in 1971..in order to create bangladesh Pakistan muredered 3 million indians.....your telling me that's worse than anything saddam did?...guess who was head of the CIA when that happened....Bush sr."

Actually, the 1971 war was essentially a civil war between what was West Pakistan and East Pakistan(later Bangladesh). That is not at all the same as an unpovoked attack on an independent country, something that Saddam has done 4 times in the past 20 years. 3 million Indian citizens surely were not killed in the fighting as India was only involved in the war for two weeks after which Pakistan surrendered. I have heard that over a million people total died in the fighting and the blame for that can be shared by both sides to some degree. Definitely not in the same category as crimes that Saddam is solely responsible for.


"guess who was head of the CIA when that happened....Bush sr."

That has no relevance to the break up of Pakistan in 1971. Unless you want to believe Bush Sr. directed all of President Yahay Khans moves or incited East Pakistani's to demonstrate or fight for an independent Bangladesh.
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Old 04-14-2003, 10:41 PM   #18
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What is this 20 year rule thing?

Seriously, I think it's arbitrary. Take a look at Israel/Palestine, that is an ongoing 50+ year conflict, but it is also the root of much of the trouble in the Middle East. Whether a country invaded somebody or acted aggressively 20 years ago vs. 30 or 40, it is all still recent history.
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Old 04-14-2003, 11:14 PM   #19
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I think there is a difference in relevance to something that happened in 1983 or later as opposed to 1948. Also the 20 years covers most of the time Saddam has been in power. With these other countries were going back nearly 50 years to a clearly different time and leadership, to find the one time they might have invaded and attacked another country vs. the 4 times Iraq has done that with the same leader in the past 20 years. I do think its a clear and important distinction.
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Old 04-15-2003, 07:39 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
Arun,

"in 1971..in order to create bangladesh Pakistan muredered 3 million indians.....your telling me that's worse than anything saddam did?...guess who was head of the CIA when that happened....Bush sr."

Actually, the 1971 war was essentially a civil war between what was West Pakistan and East Pakistan(later Bangladesh). That is not at all the same as an unpovoked attack on an independent country, something that Saddam has done 4 times in the past 20 years. 3 million Indian citizens surely were not killed in the fighting as India was only involved in the war for two weeks after which Pakistan surrendered. I have heard that over a million people total died in the fighting and the blame for that can be shared by both sides to some degree. Definitely not in the same category as crimes that Saddam is solely responsible for.


"guess who was head of the CIA when that happened....Bush sr."

That has no relevance to the break up of Pakistan in 1971. Unless you want to believe Bush Sr. directed all of President Yahay Khans moves or incited East Pakistani's to demonstrate or fight for an independent Bangladesh.

What??? in the 1971 war Bush sr put in his report that pakistan was the aggressor when EVER y other independant source and intelligence agency dobumented pakistan as teh aggressor.


Who do you think gave troops to support the insurgency??? your telling me Pakistan is innocent????..your sorely mistaken. Perhaps my use of the word "Indians" was too broad as not every one killed was of indian ethnicicty though A GOOD AMOUNT were hindus...and this was one of the goals of that genocidal campaign.




The human death toll over only 267 days was incredible. Just to give for five out of the eighteen districts some incomplete statistics published in Bangladesh newspapers or by an Inquiry Committee, the Pakistani army killed 100,000 Bengalis in Dacca, 150,000 in Khulna, 75,000 in Jessore, 95,000 in Comilla, and 100,000 in Chittagong. For eighteen districts the total is 1,247,000 killed. This was an incomplete toll, and to this day no one really knows the final toll. Some estimates of the democide [Rummel's "death by government"] are much lower -- one is of 300,000 dead -- but most range from 1 million to 3 million. ... The Pakistani army and allied paramilitary groups killed about one out of every sixty-one people in Pakistan overall; one out of every twenty-five Bengalis, Hindus, and others in East Pakistan. If the rate of killing for all of Pakistan is annualized over the years the Yahya martial law regime was in power (March 1969 to December 1971), then this one regime was more lethal than that of the Soviet Union, China under the communists, or Japan under the military (even through World War II). (Rummel, Death By Government, p. 331.)


There is no doubt that the mass killing in Bangladesh was among the most carefully and centrally planned of modern genocides. A cabal of five Pakistani generals orchestrated the events: President Yahya Khan, General Tikka Khan, chief of staff General Pirzada, security chief General Umar Khan, and intelligence chief General Akbar Khan. The U.S. government, long supportive of military rule in Pakistan, supplied some \\$3.8 million in military equipment to the dictatorship after the onset of the genocide, "and after a government spokesman told Congress that all shipments to Yahya Khan's regime had ceased." (Payne, Massacre, p. 102.)


On December 3, India under Prime Minister Indira Gandhi, seeking to return the millions of Bengali refugees and seize an opportunity to weaken its perennial military rival, finally launched a fullscale intervention to crush West Pakistani forces and secure Bangladeshi independence. The Pakistani army, demoralized by long months of guerrilla warfare, quickly collapsed. On December 16, after a final genocidal outburst, the Pakistani regime agreed to an unconditional surrender. Awami leader Sheikh Mujib was released from detention and returned to a hero's welcome in Dacca on January 10, 1972, establishing Bangladesh's first independent parliament.

None of the generals involved in the genocide has ever been brought to trial, and all remain at large in Pakistan and other countries. Several movements have arisen to try to bring them before an international tribunal

So..pakistan who essentially played the role of a stalinest regime in 1971....which was ignored by the CIA and by nixon...is now an ally. Wonderful. And it's ok to slaughter millions of people...as long as you don't try to take away their land.?
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