What about us atheists? Where do we stand?

[vaz02]

If god tells people to commit these wars and crimes against other people he is no better than Hiter himself. Btw would anyone argue with that ? if so why ?

Just a opinion i would like to throw into the pit there

 

[vaz02]

I haven't studied your list, so I'm not sure how accurate it is. But even if you are 100% accurate about all those wars being fought over religion, do you really think that your list comprises the majority of wars that have happened?

I would think that the greed for land and natural and wealth resources has been at the root of far more wars than religion.

those stuff have been gained as a consquences of those wars. But you are right those were probs contributing factors too.

 

[shart1780]

Most wars have been started over false Gods (aka not Jesus), yes, I can I agree with that. The consequences of sin are death after all.

 

[80sU2isBest]

I do know the American Civil War. believe me, I know the Civil war. I used to know more about it than I knew about anything. That war had nothing to do with religion.

 

[JMScoopy]

I haven't studied your list, so I'm not sure how accurate it is. But even if you are 100% accurate about all those wars being fought over religion, do you really think that your list comprises the majority of wars that have happened?

I would think that the greed for land and natural and wealth resources has been at the root of far more wars than religion.

that list was only a few religious wars/conflicts.

im sure if i researched the subject in depth, i could make a list that would fill 3 pages of this forum.

although i dont care enough to do that

 

[vaz02]

I do know the American Civil War. believe me, I know the Civil war. I used to know more about it than I knew about anything. That war had nothing to do with religion.

yeah the war of independence was about taxing i do believe. Wasnt england protestant back then ? But i think the colonies demanded stricter law , im not sure.

 

[80sU2isBest]

that list was only a few religious wars/conflicts.

im sure if i researched the subject in depth, i could make a list that would fill 3 pages of this forum.

although i dont care enough to do that

You know, if I were to take the time, I'll bet I could find just as many in which religion wasn't the root, but land and wealth were.

 

[JMScoopy]

I do know the American Civil War. believe me, I know the Civil war. I used to know more about it than I knew about anything. That war had nothing to do with religion.

yeah, i guess the civil war was more of a policy and land conflict.

although im sure if you went deep enough, there is some religious context to it.

 

[80sU2isBest]

yeah the war of independence was about taxing i do believe. Wasnt england protestant back then ? But i think the colonies demanded stricter law , im not sure.

The War of Independence actually was partially about religion, in that one of the things the colonists wanted was religious freedom from England.

However, the Civil War had nothing to with religion.

 

[JMScoopy]

You know, if I were to take the time, I'll bet I could find just as many in which religion wasn't the root, but land and wealth were.

ok then, make a list, like i did, of wars that were fought just on land and wealth.

 

[80sU2isBest]

yeah, i guess the civil war was more of a policy and land conflict.

although im sure if you went deep enough, there is some religious context to it.

The Civil War was mainly about 2 things: slavery and states' rights. The only thing that could slighty be seen as a religious context is the idea that slavery should be outlawed because all men are created equal, and that's stretching the religious aspect a bit much, because even people with no religious beliefs whatsoever know that slavery is wrong.

 

[80sU2isBest]

ok then, make a list, like i did, of wars that were fought just on land and wealth.

The truth is that I know a lot more about US History than I do World History. But I will start it now, naming some wars. I will add more to it next Sunday when I have time to research it.

Off the top of my head, these are non-religious wars:

Iraq War
Operation Desert Storm
Vietnam War
Korea
WW 2
WW 1
War of 1812
Mexican American War
The Falklands
American Civil War
Texas' War With Mexico
American Revolution (It was partially about religious freedom, but it was not 2 religious groups fighting each other, so that makes it a non religious war)

 

[80sU2isBest]

I will say one more thing about the topic I had said I will forget, because I just realized something. The topic clearly says "us Athiests". This thread was not intended for me, and so I will concede that it wasn't for me, and I should have stayed out.

 

[vaz02]

I will say one more thing about the topic I had said I will forget, because I just realized something. The topic clearly says "us Athiests". This thread was not intended for me, and so I will concede that it wasn't for me, and I should have stayed out.

Everyone is free to voice there own opinion really lol. I know i would gatecrash a ass licking god thread.

 

[yolland]

make a list, like i did

Really?

http://cantanima.blogspot.com/2005/11/inconvenience-of-atheism.html
http://www.heraldextra.com/component/option,com_smf/Itemid,/topic,19603.24

I would be interested to see your OWN personal explanations, based on your OWN knowledge of the various sociopolitical, cultural, and economic factors involved in all these wars you listed, as to how religion was the decisive factor in triggering or sustaining them. Observing that religious "undertones" are present in a given war is a pretty meaningless statement, since the majority of the planet's population belong to some religion or another and thus, religious rationalizations for war are going to appear in almost any conflict. By this logic nation-states, ethnicities, organized economies, land ownership, etc. etc. etc should all be eliminated since they are also present as "undertones" in pretty much any war.

I am also curious as to why, if you are so horrified that wars bearing religious "undertones" exist, you expressed this opinion in the Israel/Lebanon thread:

GO ISRAEL!!!

they put up with enough shit, i support 'em 100%.

Surely you would not deny that Israel's position has religious "undertones" as well--why then are you so unequivocally supportive of it?

 

[JMScoopy]

Really?

http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache...ning+with+slovenia)"&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1
http://www.heraldextra.com/component/option,com_smf/Itemid,/topic,19603.24


I am also curious as to why, if you are so horrified that wars bearing religious "undertones" exist, you expressed this opinion in the Israel/Lebanon thread:

Surely you would not deny that Israel's position has religious "undertones" as well--why then are you so unequivocally supportive of it?

i never knew i was "horrified" of religious wars. i love how people here throw words in my mouth when they dont agree.

i also never stated my opinion on religious wars, or even religion as a whole. i merely brought up the subject of religion being the cause of most of history's wars/conflicts. amazing.

i never did deny the israel conflict was religious, of course it is. but i guess i'm not allowed to support israel cause i said religion is the cause of most of the wars in history, right?


i only copy and pasted those lists cause i didnt wanna type them all out. i've taken several history courses and i know all about most of those wars/conflicts on those lists.

 

[vaz02]

i never knew i was "horrified" of religious wars. i love how people here throw words in my mouth when they dont agree.

yeah its like the whole , dont suspect suggest thing.

 

[JMScoopy]

 

[yolland]

Don't agree with what? Your perspective on the Israel-Lebanon conflict, or your dishonest presentation of a couple cut-and-paste lists as your own informed consideration on the role of religion in various conflicts? If you can present knowledgeable arguments as to the role of religion in all those wars listed, I would be quite happy to hear them. I will freely admit to not knowing much about many of them myself.

yeah its like the whole , dont suspect suggest thing.

Kind of like classifying me as a member of "you all (Christians)" when I'm not Christian? Or was I not supposed to conclude that "you all" apparently includes me, since you were replying to me.

 

[JMScoopy]

well now, lets see, i wouldnt've posted those lists from those sites if they werent' accurate and i didnt know who the sides are or what the wars/conflicts were about now would i?

also, if you look at the 2nd list, it's pretty much self-explanitory. one religious group fighting another one.

 

[yolland]

I have no idea. It certainly wouldn't be the first time someone's done that. Again, I encourage you to present your own explanations as to why these conflicts illustrate "the subject of religion being the cause of most of history's wars/conflicts." I am a professor of South Asian politics and would certainly question the accuracy of saying religion was "the cause" of the South Asian conflicts mentioned in that "self-explanatory" list. But I cannot claim to be knowledgeable about many of the rest.

 

[80sU2isBest]

well now, lets see, i wouldnt've posted those lists from those sites if they werent' accurate and i didnt know who the sides are or what the wars/conflicts were about now would i?

The list said the American Civil War was religious in nature or had religious overtones, and that wasn't accurate.

 

[JMScoopy]

OK! the civil war WASNT RELIGIOUS!!!!!

ok thats 1.


i dont think N Korea or vietnam were religious, at least from a US perspective.

so thats 3, compaired to the 30 or so valid wars/conflicts on the list.

so where's your list?

just cause i pasted them doesnt mean they arent valid

 

[yolland]

No, but it certainly doesn't establish that they are (relative to the "the cause" thesis) either. You can find a website advocating pretty much anything, after all.

I'm wondering if you even noticed that the site you lifted the first list from actually presented it as a list of non-religious wars.

Perhaps best to drop the topic.

 

[A_Wanderer]

yeah , I wish Christianity never existed .

so wot ? i dont want you all killed , i just want you all to reconsider

And that can lead to evil, I may be a strong atheist but I have enough of an appreciation of liberty to understand that the freedom of concience that allows for my vocal unbelief is the very same that protects the faithfulls right to believe.

 

[AussieU2fanman]

This may seem silly, but I don't think there has been a war in history that has truely been over religious conflicts or discrepancies idealogical views (or not that many). That seems totally farsicle. A more reasonable explanation for many of the worlds war's, would be to claim more land/wealth/power etc. BUT do it in the name of religion/God to hide the true selfish motive of human greed. Nobody really gives a stuff about converting people from different religions in wars so they can have salvation too!
It's all about money, wealth and power....but we mask these intentions with religion. Blaming 'God' for making us instigate wars is easy.....blaming ourselves is something we can't do.

 

[AussieU2fanman]

The Civil War was mainly about 2 things: slavery and states' rights. The only thing that could slighty be seen as a religious context is the idea that slavery should be outlawed because all men are created equal, and that's stretching the religious aspect a bit much, because even people with no religious beliefs whatsoever know that slavery is wrong.

Actually, if you read the Bible, slavery is encouraged in all forms. Here is God's word

Leviticus Chapter 25, verse 44:

"Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly. "

Here God is telling us where we can buy some slaves and it states that slaves are properties of the owners and can be traded like normal goods etc.


Colossians, chapter 3, verse 22:

"Slaves, obey in everything those who are your earthly masters, not with eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but in singleness of heart, fearing the Lord. Whatever your task, work heartily... "

self explanitory

Exodus Chapter 21, verse 32:

If the bull gores a male or female slave, the owner must pay thirty shekels of silver to the master of the slave, and the bull must be stoned.

God is telling us how much slaves cost - 30 shekels of silver to be precise.

I can quote many many more passages where God encourages and even demands slavery direct from the inrpired and inerrant Bible. So the Christian view on slavery is quite clear.

 

[yolland]

You are correct that the authors of both the Old and New Testaments accepted slavery as a legitimate social institution, as was standard in much of the world at that time. However, I think what 80s had in mind was more the fact that the abolitionist movement in the US was largely driven by churches and religious leaders. Of course, there were plenty of anti-abolitionist religious folk as well, which further underscores his point that the moral debate there was much broader than its conceivably religious aspects.

I cannot think of any Bible passages which "demand" that one keep slaves--that would've been an unkeepable command, since most people could never have afforded it. Slavery, along with other common Ancient Near Eastern practices such as polygamy and arranged marriage at age 12 (girls)/13 (boys), has long since been forbidden under Jewish law (it is a basic premise of Judaism that the Sanhedrin, or nowadays the rabbinical assemblies, have the authority to abrogate the law--although none of those 3 things were ever actually required by the law anyhow). In the case of Christianity and especially Protestantism, there isn't really a comparable "religious law" code per se, so there would have been no need for individual denominations' leaderships (where official leaderships even existed) to ban what had already been banned by the state. Certainly in (anti-)abolitionist days there was debate as to whether or not one could legitimately argue, based on the NT passages, that Christianity is thereby eternally compatible with slavery. My impression is that the Christian abolitionist response to this was generally to argue that slavery, even if accepted at the time for various sociocultural reasons, nonetheless stands in direct contradiction to the basic ethical precepts of Christianity as relayed elsewhere in the NT. But I really could not speak authoritatively about that.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Actually, if you read the Bible, slavery is encouraged in all forms. Here is God's word

Leviticus Chapter 25, verse 44:

"Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly. "

Here God is telling us where we can buy some slaves and it states that slaves are properties of the owners and can be traded like normal goods etc.

Yes, the Old Testament does condone slavery. Slavery in Bible times was completely different from slavery in the 1700s and 1800s in America. It was not based on race or color of skin. They were treated much more humanely. Both Hebrew and Foreign slaves were domestic servants who lived in the houses of teh "masters". In many cases, poor people sold themselves as slaves. In other cases, homeless people who wandered the land were taken as servants by land owners, to give them a home.

Here's a quote from a good website on the subject,

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/qnoslave.html

"Although slaves were viewed as the property of heads of households, the latter were not free to brutalize or abuse even non-Israelite members of the household. On the contrary, explicit prohibitions of the oppression/exploitation of slaves appear repeatedly in the Mosaic legislation. In two most remarkable texts, Leviticus 19:34 and Deuteronomy 10:19, Yahweh charges all Israelites to love ('aheb) aliens (gerim) who reside in their midst, that is, the foreign members of their households, like they do themselves and to treat these outsiders with the same respect they show their ethnic countrymen. Like Exodus 22:20 (Eng. 21), in both texts Israel's memory of her own experience as slaves in Egypt should have provided motivation for compassionate treatment of her slaves. But Deuteronomy 10:18 adds that the Israelites were to look to Yahweh himself as the paradigm for treating the economically and socially vulnerable persons in their communities." [HI:MFBW:60]

Colossians, chapter 3, verse 22:

"Slaves, obey in everything those who are your earthly masters, not with eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but in singleness of heart, fearing the Lord. Whatever your task, work heartily... "


God is telling us how much slaves cost - 30 shekels of silver to be precise.

I can quote many many more passages where God encourages and even demands slavery direct from the inrpired and inerrant Bible. So the Christian view on slavery is quite clear.

New Testment passages you quote do not condone slavery at all. They are rather, an illustration of how we are to act toward those who are in authorty over us. That is a common theme in the New Testament, and not just concerning slaves. We are told to place ourselves under submission of our governemnt leaders, our parents, etc...

The New Testament passages do not speak as to whether slavery is right or wrong.

 

[80sU2isBest]

This may seem silly, but I don't think there has been a war in history that has truely been over religious conflicts or discrepancies idealogical views (or not that many). That seems totally farsicle. A more reasonable explanation for many of the worlds war's, would be to claim more land/wealth/power etc. BUT do it in the name of religion/God to hide the true selfish motive of human greed. Nobody really gives a stuff about converting people from different religions in wars so they can have salvation too!
It's all about money, wealth and power....but we mask these intentions with religion. Blaming 'God' for making us instigate wars is easy.....blaming ourselves is something we can't do.

I agree.