Same-Sex Marriage General Discussion Thread - Page 2 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 08-20-2011, 05:08 PM   #21
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
U2DMfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: It's Inside A Black Hole
Posts: 6,637
Local Time: 11:31 AM
Well, I put it in quotes for that reason. Thought that would be obvious.
That's why I used "real fights/arguments for liberty" in the very next sentence.
You know...right there in the post.

Iron horse is always making inconsistent 'Libertarian' arguments.

But hey, nothing surprises me about the lack of reading comprehension in this place. Especially if it's the resident Hall Monitor checking in.
__________________

U2DMfan is offline  
Old 08-20-2011, 05:16 PM   #22
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 41,232
Local Time: 12:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by U2DMfan View Post
Well, I put it in quotes for that reason. Thought that would be obvious.
That's why I used "real fights/arguments for liberty" in the very next sentence.
You know...right there in the post.

Iron horse is always making inconsistent 'Libertarian' arguments.

But hey, nothing surprises me about the lack of reading comprehension in this place. Especially if it's the resident Hall Monitor checking in.
Calm down, that post wasn't really for you. It was more for iron horse in case he came back with a "all liberty arguments are worth fighting for" defense.
__________________

BVS is offline  
Old 08-20-2011, 07:18 PM   #23
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
the iron horse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: in a glass of CheerWine
Posts: 3,266
Local Time: 01:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by U2DMfan View Post
I'll answer you specifically. You're obfuscating the issue.
Stop picking 'liberty' fights that aren't worth fighting. There are plenty of other real fights/arguments for liberty that need to be made.

Nobody is placing a muzzle on anybody. They're just saying "if you want to be a public employee, paid by the taxpayer...then you can't espouse hate". He can be a non-teacher and rail against gays all the wants.

I can say "Wop" all I want within the confines of my home or anywhere else for that matter. But if I say that, while working at an Italian restaurant and the boss fires me because of customer complaints, then he has that right.

You aren't literally restricted in your speech. You just aren't entitled to public employment regardless of what you say. As diemen said, there are consequences. Simple enough?


Yes, that does clarify the issue,

Thanks
the iron horse is offline  
Old 08-20-2011, 08:27 PM   #24
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
angelordevil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Inside a sound
Posts: 5,830
Local Time: 03:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yolland View Post
I think a same-sex puppet couple would be fine and can appreciate an exposure-for-familiarity's-sake argument; I just think any resulting enhancements in actual understanding would probably be very small.
Exactly. Burt and Ernie are puppets, for fuck's sake. What is it about the US, where celebrities (and now puppets) are called upon to inform national public policy? We've had six years of gay marriage here in Canada and we've yet to implode as a country because of it. And remarkably, our puppets and national icons weren't involved in the process.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yolland View Post
Anyone who talks like that clearly has personal emotional issues with gay people, and is not just seeking to lovingly share God's Plan with others.
Some of my very best friends are gay. People who lack the wherewithal (and frighteningly, educators are included) to realize that homosexuality is not a choice -- but is instead a part of one's individual genetic makeup -- are missing something else besides "God's Plan." They are severely lacking in intelligence.
angelordevil is offline  
Old 08-20-2011, 10:23 PM   #25
War Child
 
Caleb8844's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 662
Local Time: 11:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BVS View Post
But honestly this isn't a "liberty" fight at all.

Freedom of speech is the concept that government will not censor speech, nowhere does it say that the speech will not have consequences.

People have disorted this concept into 'I should be able to say anything I want anywhere and have no consequences', but that's not how it works, nor how it was designed.
This may be the first time I've totally agreed with you, BVS. Well said
Caleb8844 is offline  
Old 08-21-2011, 05:44 AM   #26
The Fly
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 110
Local Time: 06:31 PM
Here's how you debate same sex marriage.



Or not.

(Apologies if this has been posted already)
Tinwal is offline  
Old 08-21-2011, 07:51 AM   #27
War Child
 
U217's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 802
Local Time: 01:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BVS View Post
But honestly this isn't a "liberty" fight at all.

Freedom of speech is the concept that government will not censor speech, nowhere does it say that the speech will not have consequences.

People have disorted this concept into 'I should be able to say anything I want anywhere and have no consequences', but that's not how it works, nor how it was designed.

THIS. Yes. Yes, yes, yes. It's so simple and easy to understand if you actually read the document.

,
17
U217 is offline  
Old 08-22-2011, 12:59 AM   #28
Blue Crack Addict
 
PhilsFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: South Philadelphia
Posts: 19,218
Local Time: 01:31 PM
Speech is free insofar as you won't get thrown in jail for something like this. That's it.
PhilsFan is offline  
Old 08-22-2011, 01:13 PM   #29
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 33,392
Local Time: 01:31 PM
you hear lots of times about people switching positions on issues, liberals become conservative, conservative becomes liberals. people switch from pro- to anti-choice all the time. what's the saying ... "a conservative is a liberal who's been mugged, and a liberal is a conservative who's been to jail."

what's so interesting about same-sex marriage is that while many people remain opposed to it (as well as to same-sex adoption), it's virtually impossible to find anyone who once supported same-sex marriage but who is now against it.

i think this is a good example of why:

Quote:
The Littlest Lobbyist

How an 8-year-old boy helped pass the same-sex marriage bill

By Laura Nahmias



Josh Zwerin is 8 years old. He is entering the third grade, reading Harry Potter and climbing trees in the gaslit glow outside his Tudor home in suburban Rockville Centre, Long Island. He also has two dads—Jeff Friedman and Andy Zwerin, the gay couple who adopted him the day he was born—the only family he’s ever known.

But in the last six months of the same-sex marriage debate in Albany, as politicians and lobbyists jockeyed for position, Josh turned out to be improbably powerful in a way he seems barely to comprehend.

Josh, a handsome little fellow in a dark suit and tie, could often be seen in the Senate gallery and Capitol hallways in the last few weeks of the session. Long before the rest of the world knew the legislation would even come to a vote, he had private meetings with senators that proved fruitful for the bill’s chances.

Sandwiched between his two 43-year-old dads on the couch in their home in late July, barefoot and clad in a Mark Sanchez football jersey, Josh tallied up the senators he had met: “Senator Kennedy, Senator Skelos, Senator Huntley, oh, that really stupid guy…”

“Josh!” shushed Friedman.

“I don’t like him! I’m not going to say his name,” Josh said.

Friedman and Zwerin coaxed Josh to talk about the marriage vote. “Why did we go to Albany?” Friedman asked.

Jeff Friedman, Josh and Andy Zwerin made trips to Albany to lobby senators, like Dean Skelos, on same-sex marriage

“For the vote,” Josh replied.

Friedman: “What were we doing?”

Josh: “We were working.”

Friedman: “What kind of work, Josh?”

Josh: “We were lobbying.”

Friedman first became active in the same-sex marriage movement five years ago, after he suffered a heart attack on the day of Zwerin’s mother’s funeral. His partner and their son rushed to the hospital to fill out paperwork for cardiac surgery, only to find that Zwerin had no legal right to make decisions on Friedman’s behalf.

“A nurse asks me, ‘What’s your relationship to him?’” Zwerin said. “We weren’t legally married by the state, so she said, ‘I’m sorry, but you can’t sign those.’ ”

The danger passed, but the lesson lingered.

“The person that you know your whole life may not survive, and then they’re saying, in front of Josh, that we’re not family,” Friedman said. “The following week I was still in cardiac intensive care, and having Josh run in and ask, ‘Are we still a family?’—that’s not something that is appropriate for any child to feel.”


When their family started lobbying senators, they brought Josh along. One of the senators they spoke with was Shirley Huntley, a Queens Democrat who voted against same-sex marriage in 2009 and told The New York Times, “If they gave me a million dollars, tax free, I just wouldn’t vote for it.”

Last winter, though, she decided she was undecided. And when Friedman and Zwerin brought Josh to Albany one day, the 73-year-old grandmother met with them with an open mind.

“There was this cute little boy with a whole flock of curly hair,” Huntley said. “He’s a happy child… I guess it just got to my heart, because I could see this child was well-reared. Then they brought him up for me to meet the child, and I was just so happy to meet him.”

Josh, who is biracial, reminded Huntley of one of her own relatives, Friedman said. He recalls telling Huntley how he met Zwerin in high school chemistry class in Merrick, Long Island, 26 years ago. He showed her the photo album from their 2008 marriage in California, a marriage that would be recognized in New York if the law passed.

Advocates had focused for years on the abstract notion of rights, afraid to talk about their families, Friedman said. But most of the conversations he had with the senators he tried to convince were about parenting.

“I first talked to Shirley about the fact that me and Andy, we met in high school. I told her we’d been together for 26 years and that we live lives no different than anybody else,” Friedman said. “I am an active member of the PTA, you know. I am part of the social-action committee of my temple here.”

The meeting with Huntley was impromptu. She didn’t say why she didn’t vote for it in 2009, and Friedman didn’t ask. He recalled that her main concern was whether voting “No” would hurt Josh.

“At the end of the conversation, after we were both crying for a while, that’s when she told me not to worry, to trust her,” Friedman said. “She was going to be voting for marriage.”

Josh was the tipping point, Huntley said later. Though she kept her new position a secret for weeks, she made up her mind that spring day.

“You say, ‘What the hell,’ ” Huntley said, throwing up her hands. “It’s wonderful.”

She expects to be invited to some weddings. She does not expect a primary challenge because of the vote and has received no angry phone calls from pastors in her district. She thinks she did the right thing.

“If people are going to judge me by that vote, after all the other things I have done in my community…” She shook her head. “If they’re going to judge me for that one vote, then so be it.”

Josh remembers Albany mostly for the thrills of playing with Senate Majority Leader Dean Skelos’ iPad and sitting in Assemblyman Danny O’Donnell’s chair on the chamber floor. But he has some sense of the import of his lobbying at the Capitol.

His parents prodded him to say why marriage equality was needed. He leaned against Zwerin and said, “I just wanted you to be treated good.”



How 8-year-old Josh Zwerin helped pass the same-sex marriage bill
Irvine511 is online now  
Old 08-22-2011, 03:30 PM   #30
Blue Crack Addict
 
PhilsFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: South Philadelphia
Posts: 19,218
Local Time: 01:31 PM
That's awesome. I become more and more bitter and cynical by the day, but occasionally something like that still inspires me.
PhilsFan is offline  
Old 08-22-2011, 05:48 PM   #31
Blue Crack Addict
 
deep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: A far distance down.
Posts: 28,601
Local Time: 09:31 AM
Suquamish Tribe approves same-sex marriage
deep is offline  
Old 08-22-2011, 06:29 PM   #32
45:33
 
cobl04's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: East Point to Shaolin
Posts: 58,208
Local Time: 04:31 AM


I wish those were the stories that went viral. (the one about josh)
cobl04 is offline  
Old 08-30-2011, 03:49 PM   #33
Blue Crack Addict
 
MrsSpringsteen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 28,170
Local Time: 01:31 PM
jezebel.com

Poll Shows Many Religious Groups Support Gay Marriage

A new poll shows that, perhaps unsurprisingly, young people are far more likely to support gay marriage than older ones. More surprising, however, is that several religious groups are now in support of marriage equality.

According to the Public Religion Research Institute, 62% of millennials (people aged 18 to 29) favor gay marriage, while only 31% of those over 65 say the same. Not too shocking, although it's worth noting that the poll also found an increase in support for gay marriage over the last five years, suggesting that views are changing. There's good reason to hope that by the time millennials are senior citizens, their pro-equality views will dominate.

The PRRI notes that "conventional wisdom" dictates that religious people oppose gay marriage. However, their poll found that 67% of non-Christians who identify as religious are in favor of marriage equality. So are 52% of Catholics and 51% of mainline Protestants. Evangelical Protestants are largely anti-gay marriage, but the percentage differs by race. Seventy-six percent of white evangelicals are against the practice, while only 60% of black evangelicals are. This contradicts the notion, advanced by Dan Savage and others, that black Americans are disproportionately homophobic. Another interesting finding: a majority of religious people of all denominations (including evangelical Christians) believe that "negative messages from America's places of worship" contribute to the suicides of gay youth. Sounds like it's time for religious groups to start making change from within.

Public Religion Research - Research
MrsSpringsteen is offline  
Old 08-30-2011, 08:41 PM   #34
45:33
 
cobl04's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: East Point to Shaolin
Posts: 58,208
Local Time: 04:31 AM
They polled our politicians here the other day... and I think most of them were in opposition to it. Now, more than ever, I can't possibly fathom how anyone who would not describe themselves as homophobic or bigoted, could be against it.
cobl04 is offline  
Old 08-31-2011, 07:22 AM   #35
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
angelordevil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Inside a sound
Posts: 5,830
Local Time: 03:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsSpringsteen View Post
jezebel.com
Another interesting finding: a majority of religious people of all denominations (including evangelical Christians) believe that "negative messages from America's places of worship" contribute to the suicides of gay youth. Sounds like it's time for religious groups to start making change from within.
Public Religion Research - Research


Quote:
Originally Posted by cobl04 View Post
...Now, more than ever, I can't possibly fathom how anyone who would not describe themselves as homophobic or bigoted, could be against it.
Exactly. As someone who wasn't always raised in a loving environment, I can tell you that it's absolutely the most important thing -- no matter the parents' (or parent's) gender... The inspiring story Irvine posted on Josh underscores that fact.
angelordevil is offline  
Old 08-31-2011, 07:36 AM   #36
45:33
 
cobl04's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: East Point to Shaolin
Posts: 58,208
Local Time: 04:31 AM
I love the people who say they aren't homophobic, that they support gay marriage, but they don't think gay parents should be able to adopt or do surrogacy, because "then the child will grow up thinking that's normal", like predisposing a child to two dads instead of a dad and a mum will make the kid gay, and that they should have a mum and a dad to get that even balance.
cobl04 is offline  
Old 08-31-2011, 07:58 AM   #37
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
angelordevil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Inside a sound
Posts: 5,830
Local Time: 03:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cobl04 View Post
I love the people who say they aren't homophobic, that they support gay marriage, but they don't think gay parents should be able to adopt or do surrogacy...
That's just another example of attitudes driven by ignorance and historically predominant views... If something were to happen to me after I have kids, I would put the gay friends I know at the very top of the list to take them in.
angelordevil is offline  
Old 08-31-2011, 08:54 AM   #38
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Pearl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 5,741
Local Time: 01:31 PM
I like it when someone who has gay friends say they only support civil unions. Sometimes I feel like telling those friends of theirs what that person really thinks about homosexuality, because it is telling.
Pearl is offline  
Old 09-02-2011, 10:19 AM   #39
Blue Crack Addict
 
MrsSpringsteen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 28,170
Local Time: 01:31 PM
K-Y Intense to launch commercial with lesbian couple

MrsSpringsteen is offline  
Old 09-02-2011, 10:31 AM   #40
Blue Crack Addict
 
MrsSpringsteen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 28,170
Local Time: 01:31 PM
Rick Santorum Gay Parents Argument | Rick Santorum | Video | Mediaite

GOP presidential hopeful Rick Santorum got into a heated discussion with a student at Penn State recently over the issue of same-sex parents and their impact on the development of their children.

Santorum, upset over being called a “bigot” by CNN’s Piers Morgan, pointed to the Bible and Roman Catholic teaching to bolster his beliefs regarding same-sex marriage and parenting, asking how 2,000 years of moral theology could be considered bigotry. And he was worried, he said, about the implications of allowing gay marriage and gay parents:

This has profound consequence to the entire ecology, moral ecology, of America. It will undermine the family. It will destroy faith in America. And does anybody go out there and make the argument as to why this is a good thing, because it will happen. Make the argument why this is right. I don’t hear those arguments.

“There are plenty of arguments,” replied one student, who doesn’t appear on camera. When asked to elaborate, she said it was “extremely unfair” of Santorum to say that there no social science reports suggesting children fared just fine with two same-sex parents, because there are actually a whole slew of them. (In fact, one such study recently made headlines of its own.)

The two then argued about the legitimacy of the American Psychological Association, and, well. A resolution was not reached, to say the least.

Take a look at their discussion, taking note of the awkwardness and cringing it caused in the students standing along the back wall
__________________

MrsSpringsteen is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:31 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com
×