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Old 02-21-2018, 03:45 PM   #941
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If the message becomes co-opted by the national Democratic party, and it becomes about the 2018 election, the movement will fail. And by fail, I mean no significant gun control legislation will be passed anytime soon...which is what these kids say they want.

For example, making such a huge deal about NRA contributions to individual politicians, is a mistake, IMO. For one thing, that's been tried over and over again, and it hasn't worked. Secondly, it doesn't do anything to bring about new gun control laws. It just makes things more partisan, and the debate is about those politicians and the NRA and not about passing new laws. And most importantly, it's based on the common misconception that the NRA's power is derived from how much money they give to politicians, which isn't the case. At least, that's no where near the primary reason they have so much influence. The NRA is an easy target, but they're used to people going after them, and in fact it's what they want. It's a distraction.

If this time is really different....and everyone says it "feels different" (and I agree it does) than there has to be a different strategy. Because saying the same things over and over that have been said before but didn't work isn't going to cut it.
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Old 02-21-2018, 04:03 PM   #942
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I disagree.

The kids can't win an election on one issue. Winning the election is the only way the NRA money stops.

I think this will wake some people up who blissfully believe guns don't kill people or whateverthefuck. I think the images will resonate.

And in the world of politics, there is no pure message. Not one that wins. Sadly.
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Old 02-21-2018, 04:15 PM   #943
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It is a huge issue, but one issue facing a nation that has the ability to right a lot of the wrongs of the 2016 election.
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The kids can't win an election on one issue. Winning the election is the only way the NRA money stops.
So basically, you're saying that the main goal of these kids is to win the next election for Democrats? Huh.

And who is in control of Congress has nothing to do with "NRA money". The NRA's money comes from their millions of dues paying members, most of whom are very motived voters. And most pols who vote with the NRA don't do it because of (or at least solely because of) campaign contributions, believe it or not. Again, that's not what makes the NRA so influential.

BTW, I'm not making a case for purity. Just for a strategy different from the previous failing strategies. And one that recognises reality, not myths.
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Old 02-21-2018, 04:20 PM   #944
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So keep winning by losing...?

Sure worked in the Hillary/Bernie setup. The pure ideology always introduces the worst evil. Because elections in this nation are won in the middle. Always have been, always will be, and it sucks but it is true. There is some politicizing necessary in politics.


Yes...the Dems need to win to get gun control. Is that not obvious? No, the kids job is not to win for the Dems...they just happen to be far more aligned on a final answer to this issue.


And if you don't understand how donor money controls Congress and their actions...I don't know where else go to. The NRA spends FAR more in dark money through PACs to destabilize opposition than the actual reported donor dollars.

Yay NADER!!! Welcome GWB!!!
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Old 02-21-2018, 04:38 PM   #945
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And if you don't understand how donor money controls Congress and their actions...I don't know where else go to. The NRA spends FAR more in dark money through PACs to destabilize opposition than the actual reported donor dollars.
Mate, honestly, you want to study up on this issue. People on both sides of the gun control debate who follow this debate closely know where the NRA gets their power from. And it's not from campaign contributions....except for a few pols, their contributions are relatively small. And it's not from lobbying, they don't crack the top 20. They do run a lot of issue oriented ads, but it's not even that.

It's because the NRA has spent decades building up and fostering a gun culture that was already there. It's because they have millions of dues paying members, and millions more just as committed who don't pay dues, who are very motivated single issue voters. It's that culture, and those voters who politicians are afraid of. The contributions are just a by product of that. A few like Rubio get some serious money (but the NRA is still nowhere near his top contributor), but most get chump change.

Joe Mancin, a Democrat, isn’t a gun rights supporter because of the NRA, it’s because of his voters back home. The same goes for Bernie Sanders, who is about as left as they come but throughout most of his career has supported gun rights. Does anyone think Sanders is in the NRA’s pocket? No…it’s because Vermonters are pretty big gun supporters. Both the Republican and Democrat running the Pennsylvania special election in a few weeks are gun rights supporters....it has little do with NRA contributions.

Think about it…most Republican pols are staunchly pro-life as well, but there’s no pro-life equivalent to the NRA that’s making them vote pro-life. They do so because that’s what their voters expect. And in any event, in both cases, guns and abortions, those pols will tell you that their votes align with their values. You really think those pols need the relatively small contributions they get from the NRA to be pro-gun? That's like saying Democrats are only pro-choice because of donations from Planned Parenthood.

If you want evidence of money as a corrupting influence, look to for example the financial sector. Politicians don't vote for banks and Wall Street because they're afraid of legions of bankers and brokers voting against them. They vote that way because of HUGE amounts of money coming from a handful of sources. It's a completely different equation with the NRA. The NRA's influence is mostly cultural, and it's about their members and supporters.

But look, don't take my word for it. This issue has been extensively written about. Start here...The NRA is a powerful political force — but not because of its money, then check out here, here, and here.
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Old 02-21-2018, 04:56 PM   #946
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https://www.gq.com/story/florida-republicans-porn-guns

guns good, boobs bad
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Old 02-21-2018, 05:02 PM   #947
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that is so hilarious.

I won't dig into my bonefides. But yeah...


Perhaps you should study up on dark money, Citizens United, and how PACs influence the culture.


I grew up here. I know what the gun culture was like in the 70s and 80s. It was not an extension of Murica like it is now. That is a carefully crafted message through an NRA that has become a lobbying arm for gun and ammo manufactures, and has a board that represents them and them alone. I remember when the NRA was an organization that sponsored gun safety classes through Scouts and stuff like that.


I really, really, really don’t need a lesson on American politics, lobbying, and the NRA. I could teach the class, and you would learn a lot. But thank you.


And, yes…the only chance we have of any limits on gun control is through a change in Congress, and eventually, eliminating the veto pen of Trump. Period.

And you are wrong if you think otherwise.

And, unfortunately, that is limited to support of a party, the Dems, with their fair share of issues. But there is no path to gun control through a GOP controlled congress, unless every fucking member had their kid shot. And even then, it would be God’s will. Link war ends with your links. I don't get into that mess. There might not be a path through the Dems, either. But it is the only shot we have. You can't just blink and change a culture. You need legislators, and if these kids move the needle, it won't be toward the GOP.



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Old 02-21-2018, 05:06 PM   #948
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Ladies and gentlemen...your Grand Old Party (using the last word with much restraint).
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Old 02-21-2018, 05:06 PM   #949
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(sigh)

You were just owned, and I gave you the facts to back it. All you're doing is spouting opinions about "dark money" and "Murica". Next thing you'll be telling me the Supreme Court said corporations are people.

So anytime you want to have that conversation about the Citizen's United decision, let me know sparky. I've probably forgotten more about your laws and political system that you'll ever know.
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Old 02-21-2018, 05:12 PM   #950
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(sigh)

You were just owned, and I gave you the facts to back it.

[...]

So anytime you want to have that conversation about the Citizen's United decision, let me know sparky. I've probably forgotten more about your laws and political system that you'll ever know.
http://www.reddit.com/r/iamverysmart
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Old 02-21-2018, 05:15 PM   #951
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My god this looney is going to give guns to the lunch lady
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Old 02-21-2018, 05:21 PM   #952
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It's like I've wandered into Daily Kos.
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Old 02-21-2018, 05:36 PM   #953
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My god this looney is going to give guns to the lunch lady
This is such an insane proposition, jesus. Yeah, because a fuckin' 7th grade math teacher is gonna take out a shooter armed with a military assault riffle who is hellbent on killing as many people as possible. It's just insanity.

These kids are amazing man, fuck.
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Old 02-21-2018, 05:53 PM   #954
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The NRA has pretty much wanted concealed carry nation wide forever, and the orange douche is going to use this tragedy as a way to get it. Watch.

Oh sure, they'll toss in some things... A ban on bump stocks, maybe something on mental health.
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Old 02-21-2018, 06:30 PM   #955
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Did I just read a grown man who’s apparently a lawyer tell someone they were owned? By none other than himself? :facepalm:
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Old 02-21-2018, 06:37 PM   #956
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arming teachers is a great idea, because there's no possible way a high school student could ever overpower a teacher and take their gun.
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Old 02-21-2018, 06:45 PM   #957
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How many schools have teachers buying supplies and or meals for kids because they're so underfunded?

Where's the money for all these guns going to come from? Or the guards and metal detectors others have propsed?
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Old 02-21-2018, 06:50 PM   #958
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Where's the money for all these guns going to come from? Or the guards and metal detectors others have propsed?
They're going to make the shooters pay for it.
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Old 02-21-2018, 06:53 PM   #959
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If only they had armed guards at Fort Hood or the Navy Yard.
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Old 02-21-2018, 06:54 PM   #960
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They're going to make the shooters pay for it.
Or maybe Mexico.
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