MERGED--> He became straight + I despise...

[AEON]

With that in mind, would you consider people living monogamously under a Civil Union immoral?

Yes. I would consider it immoral, but obviously not illegal. I would prefer that the laws mirrored all of my moral beliefs, but that's simply not realistic in this case.

 

[Irvine511]

I use the word i"immoral" in a spiritual sense. My Biblical understanding of the topic disagrees with Melon's. I would rather not go down that path yet again. If you would like, please do a search on all of those posts I made several months ago.

okay. so that's clear. you use the Bible to come to that definition, nothing else. not science, not reason, not your own intuition. the Bible.

that's fine.





[q] I tend to believe that my own interpretation is more “objective” because I have nothing to gain or lose in the result of the research (since I am not gay). But I’m certain that Melon would think he is more objective because he is not brainwashed by the Conservative Christian scholars.[/q]

or maybe you do have something to lose -- a belief you've been brought up with and have spent time defending, and a belief that, if shattered, would challenge a worldview you've obviously spent time with and studied closely.

In summary, anything that misses the God’s mark is immoral. Homosexual behavior is only way of missing the target. There are many others – and I have certainly missed the mark many times in my own life.

how can i miss the mark -- if we adopt your worldview -- when i am not turned on sexually or emotionally by women. i do not respond sexually to pictures of naked women. and it would seem to me that if i were to try to live as straight, it would be a terrible thing to do -- nay, an immoral thing to do -- to the women i might potentially be involved with.

so what am i to do? are you saying that the condition of homosexuality, something i had no choice in, something that was not voluntarily chosen in any sort of meaningful way, is in and of itself immoral? or is it only when i try to embark on romantic relationships, just as any straight person would, that it becomes immoral?

what am i supposed to do.

please answer that. it is very important to me.

what am i supposed to do about it?

 

[deep]

I would prefer that the laws mirrored all of my moral beliefs, but that's simply not realistic in this case.

Really?

Have you given that a lot of thought?

 

[BVS]

I would prefer that the laws mirrored all of my moral beliefs, but that's simply not realistic in this case.

Really? What would be the point?

 

[AEON]

let me try this on you.

could you have a discussion with someone who insisted that it was immoral to be left-handed?

racism and sexism are beliefs -- for lack of a better word -- whereas a sexual orientation, like being left-handed, is an immutable condition -- for lack of a better word -- where words like "immoral" or phrases like "i disagree with" are logically absurd.

does that make sense?

I must admit, it actually would be very entertaining to hear how someone believed being left handed was immoral.

As far as discussing immutable conditions, as a Christian, I discuss this with fellow believers all of the time. We discuss our "old natures" - that is our sinful nature, and how it sometimes wins the battle for our minds. We also discuss our "new, Christlike natures" and how it fills our hearts and minds with Light, Truth, and Love. Our old nature doesn't change, we actually become a new creation. Unfortunately, we sometimes prop up the old self and give it attention.

My point is this - the old nature is corrupt and sinful whether it is left handed, right handed, gay, straight, Infantry, or hippie. The new nature we receive from Christ is perfect, holy, and eternal. It is the essence of an "immutable condition."

 

[Irvine511]

The new nature we receive from Christ is perfect, holy, and eternal. It is the essence of an "immutable condition."

so, what you are saying, is that if i were to become Saved, born again, give my life over to Christ, i'd find myself attracted to women?

if my brother did that, would his immutable condition as a leftie change as well?

 

[BVS]

I must admit, it actually would be very entertaining to hear how someone believed being left handed was immoral.

It's probably as absurd as those that believe homosexuality is immoral.

 

[Irvine511]

As far as discussing immutable conditions, as a Christian, I discuss this with fellow believers all of the time. We discuss our "old natures" - that is our sinful nature, and how it sometimes wins the battle for our minds. We also discuss our "new, Christlike natures" and how it fills our hearts and minds with Light, Truth, and Love. Our old nature doesn't change, we actually become a new creation. Unfortunately, we sometimes to prop up the old self and give it attention.

and can you understand how, to an outsider, this sounds positively cultish? the very essence of brainwashing?

 

[Diemen]

In summary, anything that misses the God’s mark is immoral. Homosexual behavior is only way of missing the target. There are many others – and I have certainly missed the mark many times in my own life.

The thing that I have always struggled to understand about statements like the above is this: If homosexuality is just one of many ways of missing the target, why then is it such a huge battlefield for conservative Christians? I see more fire and venom from Christians over this subject than adultery, for example, and I'm pretty sure the bible devotes more time to the subject of fidelity and trust than it does to the "immorality" of homosexuality.

When someone "in the flock" is found to have committed adultery, everyone is quick to excuse, deflect or qualify, and quick to forgive, and yet homosexuality remains wrong at every level, regardless of how faithful the homosexual is, regardless of how kind and giving that individual may be, regardless of how more Christ-like that person may live his life than the Christians judging him.

If homosexuality really is just one other sin, then what possible justification is there for the amount of importance, the weight of its immorality, that it has been given?

 

[BVS]

so, what you are saying, is that if i were to become Saved, born again, give my life over to Christ, i'd find myself attracted to women?

I think someone has to touch your forehead, tell you you're saved as you fall to the ground, and then you wake up fantasizing about Jessica Beal.

 

[AEON]

what am i supposed to do.

please answer that. it is very important to me.

what am i supposed to do about it?

My honest answer is - I don't know. If you were sitting here right beside me I would say forget about worrying whether or not I think you are immoral, simply look to Christ. Don't look for an answer immediately - just build a relationship with Him. Get to know Him through the Scriptures, through prayer, and through worship. Anything else is secondary.

If during that relationship, your views on the subject change - great. If not - great. The important thing is that YOU will know God as you have never known Him before. Everything else, you can leave behind.

 

[AEON]

if my brother did that, would his immutable condition as a leftie change as well?

No - the Cardinals need good left handed pitchers.

 

[Irvine511]

My honest answer is - I don't know. If you were sitting here right beside me I would say forget about worrying whether or not I think you are immoral, simply look to Christ. Don't look for an answer immediately - just build a relationship with Him. Get to know Him through the Scriptures, through prayer, and through worship. Anything else is secondary.

If during that relationship, your views on the subject change - great. If not - great. The important thing is that YOU will know God as you have never known Him before. Everything else, you can leave behind.

this doesn't answer the question at all, but it was the answer i was expecting, and it gets right back to the fact that you don't have an answer. you can't answer the question because it is unanswerable because it's premise is fundamentally absurd. there is nothing one can do about being homosexual, much in the way that there is nothing one can do about being heterosexual.

but i want to push you on this. i want you to use Christ and your love for him and this Light and Truth and think harder about this. pray on this. and tell me, in your eyes, what am i supposed to do? what does Christ want for me to do? what if i do what you say, but i remain homosexual? would i then need to try harder? would i not be doing it right if i still had thoughts and feelings for me?

you do realize, of course, that what you're advocating is what the people who run the reparative "therapy" camps do.

and when gay kids try so hard to come to Christ, and this doesn't "cure" them of their sexual orientation, then tend to kill themselves?

 

[deep]

so what am i to do? are you saying that the condition of homosexuality, something i had no choice in, something that was not voluntarily chosen in any sort of meaningful way, is in and of itself immoral? or is it only when i try to embark on romantic relationships, just as any straight person would, that it becomes immoral?

what am i supposed to do.

please answer that. it is very important to me.

what am i supposed to do about it?

I kind of feel like this is a discussion that might have taken place a couple of hundred years ago in Europe.

and Aeon is the gentle inquisidor speaking cordially to the heathen Jew, Irvine.

Irvine, just come over and be saved, all you have to do is publicly renounce and stop all those Jewish behaviors, and never speak Hebrew or read Torah again.

Or keep choosing sin and suffer the consequences.

 

[AEON]

If homosexuality really is just one other sin, then what possible justification is there for the amount of importance, the weight of its immorality, that it has been given?

I do agree with you on this. Unfortunately, it's what gets all of us to post in the threads more than any other topic it seems.

 

[Diemen]

If only it was contained to here on this board.

 

[Irvine511]

it does feel weird to be at the center of one of the biggest social debates in the US.

though it's losing steam. soon, more states than not will have at least Civil Unions. and, as polling indicates, people under the age of 40 are not just tolerant, but widely accepting of gay people.

so we'll have to go back to screaming about abortion.

 

[AEON]

this doesn't answer the question at all, but it was the answer i was expecting, and it gets right back to the fact that you don't have an answer. you can't answer the question because it is unanswerable because it's premise is fundamentally absurd. there is nothing one can do about being homosexual, much in the way that there is nothing one can do about being heterosexual.

but i want to push you on this. i want you to use Christ and your love for him and this Light and Truth and think harder about this. pray on this. and tell me, in your eyes, what am i supposed to do? what does Christ want for me to do? what if i do what you say, but i remain homosexual? would i then need to try harder? would i not be doing it right if i still had thoughts and feelings for me?

you do realize, of course, that what you're advocating is what the people who run the reparative "therapy" camps do.

and when gay kids try so hard to come to Christ, and this doesn't "cure" them of their sexual orientation, then tend to kill themselves?

I'm not saying anything like this. I am saying the opposite. I am saying place your faith in Christ, everything else is a distant second.

It is faith that matters most to God. Not entry into some Hetero Boot Camp.

 

[deep]

My honest answer is - I don't know. If you were sitting here right beside me I would say forget about worrying whether or not I think you are immoral, simply look to Christ. Don't look for an answer immediately - just build a relationship with Him. Get to know Him through the Scriptures, through prayer, and through worship. Anything else is secondary.

If during that relationship, your views on the subject change - great. If not - great. The important thing is that YOU will know God as you have never known Him before. Everything else, you can leave behind.

Here is a challenge for you.

Pray to Jesus, your Lord and Savior.

Ask him sincerely, if there is a need to condemn decent people that are gay for no other reason than because they are gay?
Is it the right thing to do?


Ask him if teaching love, is the first principle, and that Love matters more than anything else is enough?

 

[Irvine511]

I'm not saying anything like this. I am saying the opposite. I am saying place your faith in Christ, everything else is a distant second.

It is faith that matters most to God. Not entry into some Hetero Boot Camp.

you're dodging the question.

you've said i'm immoral. that i fall short from god. that everyone does this, sure, but doesn't sin require conscious choice? it is not a choice to be gay, though i suppose it is a choice to live as gay, to have relationships with members of the same gender. so, in order not to sin, i must remain celibate?

is that what needs to be done?

 

[Diemen]

Well, there is a shortage of new priests in the Church...

 

[deep]

I would prefer that the laws mirrored all of my moral beliefs, but that's simply not realistic in this case.

Would you want my moral beliefs to have the effect of Law on you and your family?

 

[AEON]

you're dodging the question.

you've said i'm immoral. that i fall short from god. that everyone does this, sure, but doesn't sin require conscious choice? it is not a choice to be gay, though i suppose it is a choice to live as gay, to have relationships with members of the same gender. so, in order not to sin, i must remain celibate?

is that what needs to be done?

Remember, core to my belief is that EVERYONE without faith in Christ falls short of God. It has nothing to do with individual behavior, it's the premise of original sin. The only way out of the condition is through faith.

Now, we can debate this all you want, but it is a central Protestantand Catholic Christian belief - that we have no choice in being fallen creatures but we can choose to have faith.

 

[AEON]

Would you want my moral beliefs to have the effect of Law on you and your family?

It depends on your moral beliefs. So far I am pleased that the Judeo-Christian moral beliefs have carried the day more than other options.

 

[Irvine511]

Remember, core to my belief is that EVERYONE without faith in Christ falls short of God. It has nothing to do with individual behavior, it's the premise of original sin. The only way out of the condition is through faith.

Now, we can debate this all you want, but it is a central Protestantand Catholic Christian belief - that we have no choice in being fallen creatures but we can choose to have faith.

you're still avoiding the question.

if i had, under your definition, faith in Christ, would i still be homosexual?

 

[A_Wanderer]

It depends on your moral beliefs. So far I am pleased that the Judeo-Christian moral beliefs have carried the day more than other options.

Which ones? Genital mutilation, slavery, killing people for sexual deviancy etc.

Even the concept that by accepting Christ forgives sins is full of flawed, it doesn't undo anything at all and certainly doesn't make someone guiltless by the standards of whomever they wronged.

 

[phillyfan26]

AEON, Irvine already asked this:

Don't you have to choose to sin?

 

[deep]

It depends on your moral beliefs. So far I am pleased that the Judeo-Christian moral beliefs have carried the day more than other options.

so if my moral beliefs are the same as yours, it's fine


and if law's are based on religious beliefs that are different than yours

Let's say Jewish divorce law that says a woman is not granted a divorce unless her husband agrees?

 

[Ormus]

Many people share Melon's interpretation. Many people (outside of interference.com) share my interpretation. I tend to believe that my own interpretation is more “objective” because I have nothing to gain or lose in the result of the research (since I am not gay). But I’m certain that Melon would think he is more objective because he is not brainwashed by the Conservative Christian scholars.

You tend to believe that your interpretation is more "objective," because it maintains the status quo and pleases your conservative Christian comrades. After all, you wouldn't want to risk being "shunned."

The fact that you have nothing to gain or to lose is precisely why you have zero interest in going beyond the surface of this issue and are prepared to casually write off all homosexuals as "sinners." It doesn't affect you, so why should you care?

Tangentially, this kind of apathetic moral conservatism accents precisely why it will be very difficult to eradicate radical Islam. Why should they challenge what they have been taught when hating Jews, women, and Westerners makes them no better or worse in the end? I guess that makes them as "objective" as you.

 

[AEON]

You tend to believe that your interpretation is more "objective," because it maintains the status quo and pleases your conservative Christian comrades. After all, you wouldn't want to risk being "shunned."

This is a bit unfair as you don't know what risks I have taken on other issues. For instance, I have been "shunned" to various degrees for my more "liberal" stances on women holding leadership positions and my acceptance of theistic evolution (and the fact the universe is billions of years old). I am more than willing to challenge the status quo when I am convinced that I am correct.