At this rate in Iraq...

The friendliest place on the web for anyone that follows U2.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
I am sorry, but I and others, strongly believe that there would not be as many attacks if there were actual troops in Iraq from Muslim countries. It would make it look like less of a United States occupation....for starters.

My .02.
 
Dreadsox said:
I am sorry, but I and others, strongly believe that there would not be as many attacks if there were actual troops in Iraq from Muslim countries. It would make it look like less of a United States occupation....for starters.

My .02.

Which Middle Eastern country would you trust in such a situation?
 
Saudi Arabia,Turkey, Egypt, Pakistan

I said Muslim, not Middle Eastern. Maybe I am talking out my ass, but based on my recall, the Arab League did not support us because largely, they did not view this as a UN operation.

Do you think that if there were Muslim forces involved in this from the beginning, that this would have looked less like an occupation from a western nation, than it does now?
 
Last edited:
The Persian Gulf War coalition consisted of the follwoing Muslim nations:

Afghanistan, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Egypt, Kuwait, Morocco, Niger, Oman, Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Turkey, the United Arab Emirates.

I someone is there and is not a considered a Muslim Nation, please forgive me. But, do you think this list would add more legitimacy to the operations we are engaged in now.

I think it is a FAILURE of pre-War diplomacy to have not gotten a braoder coalition. Clearly we were not in immediate danger.
 
[Q]Twenty-one of the 34 countries that contributed forces or materiel to the first Persian Gulf War -- such as France, Syria, Pakistan, Canada, Germany and Norway -- have either refused to support the current conflict or have asked not to be identified because of public opposition to U.S. actions. In 1991, for instance, France provided 17,000 troops, 350 tanks, 38 aircraft and 14 ships. Syria provided 19,000 troops in Saudi Arabia and 270 tanks, and Germany provided five minesweepers, three other ships and eight aircraft.[/Q]


We seemed to be able to get along with these nations twelve years ago. Saudi Arabia, the nation we have been protecting for 12 years wouldn't let us launch from the defense bases we built to protect them from Saddam. Turkey would not let us launch from their country either.

Do you think these two neighbors, may have added some legitmacy to the war in the eyes of the people of Iraq? Maybe it would have made us viewed less as occupiers?http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A1325-2003Mar20

How can this not be viewed as a Failure of Diplomacy, when Turkey, our NATO ally and Saudi Arabia, a nation we have protected refuse assistance?
 
Last edited:
Dreadsox said:
The Persian Gulf War coalition consisted of the follwoing Muslim nations:

Afghanistan, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Egypt, Kuwait, Morocco, Niger, Oman, Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Turkey, the United Arab Emirates.

I someone is there and is not a considered a Muslim Nation, please forgive me. But, do you think this list would add more legitimacy to the operations we are engaged in now.

Bahrain, maybe Niger and a couple others. I think you can understand the irony in getting these nations to join us in a war whose stated aim is to remove a tyrant (as opposed to a war whose stated aim is to take back Kuwait).
 
Last edited:
Dreadsox,

The task that many countries committed to, often verbally, in the first Persian Gulf War was far different from this one. The removal of Iraqi troops from Kuwait was a goal that was much easier for most countries to understand.

The stubbornness and often in my opinion, unwise decisions, by many middle eastern countries, in deciding a course of action to deal with Saddam, effectively, is not the fault of the Bush Administration. If there is anything to fault on the USA, its that the USA did not effectively act following the events of 1998. Kosovo came up in the Spring of 1999, and then 2000 was an election year. The Clinton administration simply kicked the issue of Iraq down the road to the next administration.

75% of the worlds energy supply is in the middle east. Anything that remotely threatens that can be considered and "immediate danger". Jimmy Carter actually stated he was ready to use Nuclear Weapons to insure the safety of such energy supplies.

Many of the Gulf States that did not publicly support the campaign did so privately. I can't point to anything specific, exept to say this has been widely practiced form of behavior in the region for decades. Although there are plans to withdraw US troops from Saudi Arabia, there were troops there during the war and there still are troops there.

Syria may have provided 19,000 troops and 270 tanks in the first Gulf War, but they were virtually useless. They were only able to advance a couple dozen miles before many of their units got lost, and high percentage of their vehicles broke down. This Syrian Armored Division was transported to Kuwait, by US ships, and it wasn't cheap. Considering Syria's shaddy past and their overally capabilities, I'm happy they were not involved in operation Iraqi Freedom.

As to countries, Muslim countries, that might be benificial to peacekeeping in Iraq, I can certainly see Pakistan, and Egypt. Saudi Arabia I am less sure of though, because of their proximity to Iraq. Its widely known that countries like Qatar and Bahrain, for what ever the reason, do not trust Saudi Arabia and want a continued US presence in their countries. I'm sure Iraqi's would be concerned as well considering the two countries troubled past and close proximity to each other.

Turkish troops in Iraq especially in the North would be a recipe for a blood bath in my opinion. One of the reason the USA wanted to deploy troops to Northern Iraq among others, was to prevent any type of contact between Turkish forces and the Kurdish population.
 
Sting2:

At operation Desert Storm there were afik approx. 245.000 non US Soldiers

Other countries supported the US with 70.000.000.000 $, how does that compare to this Iraq war?


Turkish troops in Iraq especially in the North would be a recipe for a blood bath in my opinion. One of the reason the USA wanted to deploy troops to Northern Iraq among others

you're absolutely right in this case, Turkey is verry agressive with Kurds in their country and they do everything they can to prevent a kurdish country (even on iraq teritory).
It's a shame that they kill kurds in their country with nato eq

euipment :(

Klaus
 
Klaus said:
Sting2:

At operation Desert Storm there were afik approx. 245.000 non US Soldiers

Other countries supported the US with 70.000.000.000 $, how does that compare to this Iraq war?




you're absolutely right in this case, Turkey is verry agressive with Kurds in their country and they do everything they can to prevent a kurdish country (even on iraq teritory).
It's a shame that they kill kurds in their country with nato eq

euipment :(

Klaus

As for my reference to Turkey, we were not allowed to launch from our bases in there. That kind of help from them would have been nice. The help from them, does not have to be with troops in country.

Peace
 
Klaus,

There were 245,000 non-US troops at one time of another. But over 700,000 US military and military reserve personal served in the Gulf War. In addition few of the 245,000 non-US troops contributed anything to the fighting that actually happened. Most were shipped, supplied and fed, by the US government. The Syrian example I mentioned before applied to many others as well.
 
STING2:

so to compare it to the G.W.Bush Iraq war...
...how many US troops were there, how many non-us troops?

How much did other countries pay this time to support the war - or did this time the US pay more to other countries for the war than they received?

Klaus
 
The coalition force had roughly a total of 250,000 troops from the USA, UK, and Australia. Around 60,000 were British and Australian troops. I don't have any figures on the money. One big difference with the last war is that each country that contributed troops played an important role in the war itself.
 
So last time: more than 1/3 foreign troups, this time less than 1/4 foreign troups
last time huge cashflow to the US military from foreign governments this time...
...we don't know, we just know what they offered turkey if they would cooperate.

I never heared about important roles besides US and UK soldiers this time. But my military background is weak.

75% of the worlds energy supply is in the middle east. Anything that remotely threatens that can be considered and "immediate danger". Jimmy Carter actually stated he was ready to use Nuclear Weapons to insure the safety of such energy supplies.

So you think it was blood for oil?
Do you know that by reducing the average fuel-consumtion of US vehicles by just 1 liter/100km would save more Oil than the US imports from the mid-east?
With this in mind you can rethink if a "saving of the mid east oil resources through war" is the intelligent approach

Klaus
 
If the USA did not import directly a single drop of oil from the middle east, it would still have the same level of importance I stated. The price of oil anywhere on the planet is a derivative of the Global Market Price of oil. The Global Market Price of oil is obviously directly influenced by the Supply, most of which comes from the middle east. Cut off supply from the middle east and the price of oil goes up, even in regions that import little or no oil from the middle east. The Reality is that Oil is the energy that drives the global economy. Mess with that and you mess with everything. Its not blood for oil, its fighting to protect are way of life and economic health, which effects everything.
 
STING2 said:
If the USA did not import directly a single drop of oil from the middle east, it would still have the same level of importance I stated. The price of oil anywhere on the planet is a derivative of the Global Market Price of oil. The Global Market Price of oil is obviously directly influenced by the Supply, most of which comes from the middle east. Cut off supply from the middle east and the price of oil goes up, even in regions that import little or no oil from the middle east. The Reality is that Oil is the energy that drives the global economy. Mess with that and you mess with everything. Its not blood for oil, its fighting to protect are way of life and economic health, which effects everything.
Well, protecting this way of live and economic health sounds stupid, in about 50 years we won`t have any oil at all.

But the price of oil can now be controlled by the USA, with all the oil from Iraq they can actualy decide what a good price is ( in the near future ). Who needs OPEC when you have Iraq.
 
Last edited:
saw on cbc tonite how soldier moral is really low, and how one soldier said that if rumsfeld came to iraq, hed ask him to resign.

another soldier said rumsfeld and bush belong in the deck of cards.

way to go administration. :up:
 
Red Ships of Scalla-Festa said:
saw on cbc tonite how soldier moral is really low, and how one soldier said that if rumsfeld came to iraq, hed ask him to resign.

another soldier said rumsfeld and bush belong in the deck of cards.

way to go administration. :up:

I saw that!
very interesting piece
 
FizzingWhizzbees said:
So when a person signs up for the US military they sign over their right to hold political opinions that differ with those of the President? :rolleyes:

Apparently so. if you read this article from the AP

Griping Could Mean Charges for Soldiers

..."Every now and then we've got to look at our young people and understand why they said what they said, and then do something about it," said Gen. John Abizaid, head of U.S. Central Command.

He said it was up to the soldiers' direct commanders to decide if they should be punished.

"None of us that wear this uniform are free to say anything disparaging about the secretary of defense, or the president of the United States," he added.
 
That's disgraceful. I could understand that soldiers might not be able to discuss *some* subjects with the press (ie it's obvious that they can't say "we'll be in city X tomorrow" in the middle of a war) but for them to be punished for expressing an opinion is wrong. Does anyone know if the person who gave that quote ("None of us who wear this uniform are free to say anything disparaging about the secretary of defense, or the president of the United States.") is actually saying that this is a rule in the military or he is simply expressing a personal opinion?
 
FizzingWhizzbees said:
So when a person signs up for the US military they sign over their right to hold political opinions that differ with those of the President? :rolleyes:

when i saw that piece that the ABC reporter did on US Solider moral and the response by the general who said that they will be punished for making those remarks never in a million years did i feel the anger that i felt at that moment. i honestly wanted to throw something at my tv. what the hell soliders are not allowed to voice their own opinion? moral is low. with US soliders being killed daily by guerillas it is no wonder they are feeling this way. :down: i am getting tired of seeing daily reports of a solider being killed and watching the death rate go up. :mad:

not only was i angered about that but i was mad at this apparent smear campaign that had been "launched" by the drudge report and the white house to discredit this report simply because he is openly gay. :tsk:
 
In my opinion the soldiers should be punished. They know the rules. When you join the service, you give away some of the rights and freedoms that the rest of America gets to enjoy the benefits of. One of the rules that is drilled into your head from your first day in basic training is that there is a chain of command. You DO NOT go outside of the chain of command with issues. If these soldiers have issues, they should address them to their superior officer within the chain of command. When I heard of the report my immediate reaction was, what are these soldiers thinking speaking with the reporter like that.

My goodness, my grandfather was away from my grandmother for five years during WWII. This is part of the JOB that they VOLUNTEERED for.

Having worn the uniform, I have very little sympathy here. They were not using their heads.

Now, were they not wearing the uniform, in their civilian clothes, on a street corner here in the states using their 1st Amendment Rights, that would be different. I would be right there with you all.
 
I can understand your argument Dread, but I just have one question: Isn't it a good thing if people in the US know how many soldiers serving in Iraq feel about this situation? I would have thought that people in the US would want to have this information so they could continue to make informed judgements about whether the war should have happened/has been successful/is resulting in the US getting 'bogged down' in Iraq, etc. It would be nice if the most senior people in the military were entirely honest about the morale of the soldiers serving in Iraq, but sadly I think there's a good chance they would claim morale is good even when they are aware it is low. Isn't it a good thing that people know how soldiers in Iraq feel about their work there?
 
Dreadsox said:
In my opinion the soldiers should be punished. They know the rules. When you join the service, you give away some of the rights and freedoms that the rest of America gets to enjoy the benefits of. One of the rules that is drilled into your head from your first day in basic training is that there is a chain of command. You DO NOT go outside of the chain of command with issues. If these soldiers have issues, they should address them to their superior officer within the chain of command.

Dread, a soldier being frustrated with the current presidential administration is different than a soldier having issues with, for example, his or her commanding officer over the manner in which he or she is treated by said commanding officer. If your commanding officer is sadistically pistol whipping you just for the hell of it, of course you take it up the chain of command. But that's a helluva lot different than simply expressing one's opinion about the current presidential administration.

A soldier is entitled to have views differing from the administration. The comment by the General that soldiers are not free to say "anything disparaging about the secretary of defense, or the president of the United States" is ridiculous.
 
pub crawler said:

Dread, a soldier being frustrated with the current presidential administration is different than a soldier having issues with, for example, his or her commanding officer over the manner in which he or she is treated by said commanding officer. If your commanding officer is sadistically pistol whipping you just for the hell of it, of course you take it up the chain of command. But that's a helluva lot different than simply expressing one's opinion about the current presidential administration.

Not so. You are partially correct, however, you are a soldier in the chain of command. The President is #1 then the Secretary of Defence follows down to the lowliest soldier in the chain of command. You do not have a right, while in uniform to go out to a reporter and criticize them publicly. They are part of the Chain of Command. You do not have a right while in uniform to say anything disparaging about them. You can be Court Martialled under the United States Code of Military Justice for such an offence.

pub crawler said:
A soldier is entitled to have views differing from the administration. The comment by the General that soldiers are not free to say "anything disparaging about the secretary of defense, or the president of the United States" is ridiculous.

Yes, a soldier is allowed to have different opinions. They are not allowed to express them while wearing the Uniform of the United States Armed Forces. It is not rediculous, General Douglas MacArthur, was FIRED for publically criticizing President Truman in 1951 over Korea.

Again, these soldiers have been active since September. I think it is WRONG given our history in WWI and WWII to bitch publically to reporters, when others who DID NOT volunteer and were drafted, served overseas for much longer periods of time. I also would like to know if ABC and Peter Jennings went and interviewed soldiers in Bosnia when Clinton promised them that they would only be there for 6 months. I am pretty sure they did not.

ABC was well aware that the soldiers they had interviewed were acting innapropriately. If they gave a :censored: about them, and were interested in giving the American public a view into the moral of the troops they could very easily have not used their names and just played the audio. But Peter Jennings summed it up like this:

[Q]"We've had a lot of questions in the last 24 hours about whether soldiers are permitted to publicly criticize their mission or their superiors, as some did on this program last night. Officially, a soldier could be court-martialed for this, although it is rare and at the discretion of his commander. We were reminded today of a common refrain from drill sergeants to their troops: 'We are here to defend democracy, not to practice it.' Those soldiers who lashed out on this broadcast about the Pentagon are based at Fort Stewart in Georgia. It was, as we've said, a very unusual outburst.?[/Q]

The part that I put into bold is word for word what we learned in Basic Training. When you go into the service, you truly give up part of your rights. I have been unexpectedly called to duty. I have packed my bags being told I am leaving for another country in 24 hours. I remember rounds of drinks being bought for myself and my fellow NCO's by the Command Sergent Major as a good-bye present because we were supposed to be leaving for Hati. President Clinton was not my favorite person that night as I made a phone call to my wife to say good-bye from what was supposed to be a 48 hour drill weekend. Shoot, I totally disagreed with the policy. The laughable part of the whole thing was the leader they wanted to install in Hatti was staying at the Ritz-Carlton Boston at the time, where I worked. Think I wanted to go to Hatti and die, while the future leader was living it up at the Ritz?

I signed my name on a line to serve and follow lawful orders not stand up and speak out against them.
 
Fair enough, Dread. You're argument is well-stated and well-reasoned, so I won't debate you any further on this issue. In other words, if the facts you've listed are accurate (and I don't have any reason to believe they aren't), then I agree with you. :)

I will say, however, that -- in my opinion -- in some ways it doesn't make sense to compare the Gulf Wars I & II to WWI & WWI. The world was a different place back then. Our actions in Iraq are much more nebulous in terms of their justification than were the World Wars.
 
Yeah, fair enough, Dread. If the soldiers sign up with this understanding they shouldn't break the rules. But I think Fizz has a good point. How do they tell morale is crummy if the soldiers don't talk? Or if they have problems do they talk to someone in their chain of command? I'm asking this as someone who has no idea how to deal with morale issues in the military. I'm confused.:confused: :confused: :confused:
 
Back
Top Bottom