Abortion

[Angela Harlem]

So you would legislate rape victims be forced to carry to term?

And a 13 year old girl impregnated by her father to carry to term?

I want someone to be brave enough to answer this.

 

[randhail]

Well yes I can say the virus I had last week is living, but it's not life. Go back to my posts, I never argued there wasn't anything living.

Actually, a virus isn't living. It carries out no processes without some help

 

[BVS]

Actually, many embryologists think that "personhood" begins at conception, also.

You have a poor handling on science.

 

[Angela Harlem]

So you would legislate rape victims be forced to carry to term?

And a 13 year old girl impregnated by her father to carry to term?

I dont want to argue; I just want to see it written:
Abortion is wrong, and must be wrong in one and all cases, if it is truly wrong. Aborting as a result of the crime of another is as wrong as aborting from carelessness of actions.


Come on guys, who wants to make FYM history and have the balls to say an abortion from a battered and raped girl is the same as an abortion from a suicidally depressed stupid girl who made a stupid but conscious choice. Come on, guys.

 

[deep]

is an apple tree at germination a "full developed" apple tree? No, but it is an apple tree in the beginning stages, none the less.

sorry
it is not an apple tree

it is a seed in some dirt

think about it

how is it a tree?

 

[BVS]

It prevents contraception. I don't see how that's any different than earlier birth control or a condom.

Um, no. Not exactly.

 

[LemonMelon]

I want someone to be brave enough to answer this.

I would answer "no" to both of those.

Doesn't mean I personally condone it.

As Trev said earlier in the thread:

My God, will people stop equating the support of the rights of a woman to choose or not choose an abortion as supporting abortions.

 

[trevster2k]

Doesn't the morning after pill act like an abortion in the sense that it removes an attached embryo from the uterus? It's effective even after conception, isn't it unlike a diaphragm or condom or birth control pill.

 

[LemonMelon]

Um, no. Not exactly.

Help me out here. It's a form of birth control. Tell me it's not.

 

[Angela Harlem]

So you would legislate rape victims be forced to carry to term?

And a 13 year old girl impregnated by her father to carry to term?

Guys, come on. Lets be honest. We all make conscionable moral decisions, dont we? We hate it, but it is something we can get over when the girl is viciously raped and ready to die. Yep, she wants to die. She feels the filth filling her every pore and wants all traces removed. We can allow her to abort. God knows, what moral person could force her to suffer? but that abortion is different to the one of the woman who made a mistake?

 

[80sU2isBest]

You have a poor handling on science.

I never said I'm an expert on science. I do trust the words of embryologists. You on the other hand state the contrary to what the vast majority of embryologists say. Are you that much an expert, that you know more about the subject than the vast majority of embryologists?

 

[deep]

Originally posted by 80sU2isBest

Actually, many embryologists think that "personhood" begins at conception, also.

many?

you said nothing here


most embryologists throw the majority of these "personhoods" down the drain

 

[anitram]

Personhood?

What, are these embryologists dabbling in philosophy on the side?

 

[Liesje]

Here's my take on abortion: I could never do it myself, I just couldn't (and my reasons are no one's business but my own), but I really don't think the gov't has any business legislating this, b/c just like my reasons are MY business, other people's reasons are THEIR business. I'm appalled at mid- or late-term abortions, but it's not really for me to decide. I personally value the life of the embryo as a baby and consider it a human with rights, but again, that's just me (and Phil). My friend and I had this very discussion this weekend. She made a good point, "Until every single one of these people who want to legislate against all forms of abortion actually adopt an unwanted child, I refuse to listen to them because they are hypocrites." Our protective services system is already over-run with unwanted kids. To those who are so opposed to abortion, what is your tactical solution for caring for EVERY child of a pregnancy that would have been terminated? I personally have never met someone uber-pro-life that's ever adopted, fostered, or even so much as volunteered working with kids. Jesus never said anything about abortion one way or the other, but he did say "let the children come to me" and taught love and compassion for those weaker than ourselves. Until I see the ultra-conservatives actually practicing what they preach, it's enough to make me side against them just because I'd rather not be lumped with a bunch of hypocrites trying to legislate issues that shouldn't go any farther than one's own household.

ETA: I'm not a feminist and my above stated opinion is NOT of the "well I'm a raging female and I can damn do whatever the hell I want with my body" school of thought. I just believe that this is a personal choice with too much gray area (rape, incest, health risks) for it to be worth the government even attempting to legislate.

For me, the only real gray area is that there have been cases where someone murders a pregnant woman, the baby also dies, and the perp is charged with two counts of murder or manslaughter. Can the courts really say one termination is OK while another is not simply based on who does the terminating? I'm waiting to see how this precedent plays out....

 

[Angela Harlem]

No one? Do I really need to keep quoting this? Come on! If abortion is wrong, then it is wrong. Why does it take the horrendous crime of another to overrule it?

 

[trevster2k]

I never said I'm an expert on science. I do trust the words of embryologists. You on the other hand state the contrary to what the vast majority of embryologists say. Are you that much an expert, that you know more about the subject than the vast majority of embryologists?

So, pick one 80's.

A tray of 30 embryos and a little girl are in a burning building, you can only save one or the other, whom do you save? The 30 embryos or the little girl?

 

[maycocksean]

A tray of 30 embryos and a little girl are in a burning building, you can only save one or the other, whom do you save? The 30 embryos or the little girl?

Ok 80's, pick one based on your views of life.

Trevster is getting at something really important here, and it's this. The issue of abortion is complicated.

The reason it's such an intractable issue is because both sides of the debate want to act as if it isn't, as if it's very simple. And it just isn't.

Trevster's scenario makes that clear, as does Angela Harlems request for an answer to the question of rape and incest.

My own stance is this: I'm an anti-abortion, but I do not support banning abortion. I believe that abortion IS taking a human life, but sometimes taking a human life is a sad but necessary thing to do. (Thus I believe that "abortion as birth control" is morally wrong). Your average conservative has no problem with that argument when it comes to war or the death penalty but for some reason--I presume the "innocence" factor--they are blind to it when it comes to abortion.

I also recognize that until you can convince someone that they ARE taking human life most of your anti-abortion arguments aren't going to make a dent. That doesn't make a pro-choice person "evil" or "inhumane." They're simply not convinced that they are killing someone.

I don't really understand the obsession of social conservatives with the abortion issue. It's just really strange to me. . .

 

[dazzlingamy]

It comes down to this = whether you like it or not, no one has the right over someone elses body - its my choice what i put into my body and what i want to do when i get pregnant - it may surprise you but if were to get pregnant i would keep the child under most circumstances (rape, one night stand with someone (not that im having any of those as im in a serious relationship)) because i love children, want children and think i'd be a great mum regardless if we had lots of money or not - but the fact is i totally disagree with people trying to "personalise" abortions trying to make fetuses like real children trying to instil guilt with fruitless arguments that are mostly tied to religious beliefs into a person for a choice that is theis and only theirs to make.

 

[anitram]

I personally have never met someone uber-pro-life that's ever adopted, fostered, or even so much as volunteered working with kids.

It's a miracle of life and a gift from God until it's born. Then it becomes a welfare problem with "those" careless mothers having all these children out of wedlock.

 

[LemonMelon]

Trevster is getting at something really important here, and it's this. The issue of abortion is complicated.

Indeed.

For me, as I said earlier, a living person's life is far more important than an embryo, so I would save the girl, not the embryos.

However, simple question:

What's more important, a person's comfort, or a potential human life?

 

[80sU2isBest]

So you would legislate rape victims be forced to carry to term?

And a 13 year old girl impregnated by her father to carry to term?

I'd have to say "yes". I can't give any other answer and maintain faithfulness to my position.

Is it beyond hellish and horrific that people are raped? Yes, without a doubt! I honestly would want to kill someone if he raped a freind or loved one. But I cannot condone killing an innocent child in the womb to prevent the innocent mother from having to carry the baby.

Now what will happen to me - will it now be said that I minimalize rape, that I don't have compassion for rape victims?

 

[BVS]

I never said I'm an expert on science. I do trust the words of embryologists. You on the other hand state the contrary to what the vast majority of embryologists say. Are you that much an expert, that you know more about the subject than the vast majority of embryologists?

No I'm just saying you are taking the fact that they confirm living cells to equal your definition of life. I bet if you asked them point blank your use of embryologist to back your view would stop. Like Deep said if they agree that conception is the begining of life as you define it would they really be throwing away the petri dishes when done?

 

[80sU2isBest]

So, pick one 80's.

A tray of 30 embryos and a little girl are in a burning building, you can only save one or the other, whom do you save? The 30 embryos or the little girl?

I would first try to save the little girl, because she has made it successfully through the beginning stages of personhood and has exited the woman into full-blown personhood.

 

[trevster2k]

Yes, maycocksean, the scenario I mention is indeed designed to make one think long and hard about the issue. Not mine, I saw it on a PBS program about stem cell research. I thought it was compelling.

I like Lies position too, real life makes many of the arguments for a woman without support or resources to carry full term an unrealistic option.

I personally find the concept of an abortion abhorrent but I fully support the right of a woman to be allowed to make that decision for herself and have it be a legal option for her. For me, it has nothing to do with the issue of life, it's about personal freedoms.

 

[Liesje]

I agree, Sean. If only they spent as much time volunteering to work with kids who have been left unwanted instead of beating this dead horse, they country might actually be a bit better off...

And like you said, pro-choice does not equal pro-abortion, it equals "this is an issue the federal government has no business meddling in". Just like how often we have sex, what types of protection we use, whether or not we get ultrasounds or screening for disabilities when we get pregnant, etc, etc, etc.

This is just not a political issue, period.

 

[BVS]

Doesn't the morning after pill act like an abortion in the sense that it removes an attached embryo from the uterus? It's effective even after conception, isn't it unlike a diaphragm or condom or birth control pill.

I'm not an expert but this is my understanding. I'm not sure EXACTLY how it works except for the fact that it occurs after conception.

 

[dazzlingamy]

I also recognize that until you can convince someone that they ARE taking human life most of your anti-abortion arguments aren't going to make a dent. That doesn't make a pro-choice person "evil" or "inhumane." They're simply not convinced that they are killing someone.

What about this working the other way. Will you ever be convinced that an abortion is a medical procedure not the murder of an unborn child? It doesn't make you "naiive" or "bible basher". You're just not convinced that you are blinded by faith into believing in something that has no real evidence.

It really is all just a mtter of opinion - strong opinions and im happy for it to be this way, i understand the anti abortion people and why they think that way and im all up for you having the opinion - i only start to get cross when that opinion based on no fact starts impinging on my rights

 

[anitram]

Now what will happen to me - will it now be said that I minimalize rape, that I don't have compassion for rape victims?

I actually respect you more for this view because at least it makes some logical sense to me.

And this kind of view also means that abortion will always remain legal because almost nobody will agree with you.

 

[Angela Harlem]

I'd have to say "yes". I can't give any other answer and maintain faithfulness to my position.

Is it beyond hellish and horrific that people are raped? Yes, without a doubt! I honestly would want to kill someone if he raped a freind or loved one. But I cannot condone killing an innocent child in the womb to prevent the innocent mother from having to carry the baby.

Now what will happen to me - will it now be said that I minimalize rape, that I don't have compassion for rape victims?

Only by someone with the complete lack of intelligence to understand the gravity of what you said, not what you didn't say. In which case you did, anyway.

This isn't about upgrading or downgrading the rape or incest case, I know that. I am not going to misrepresent what you have answered and that is given the black and white of your belief of when life begins, the circumstances do no change that a life has begun and you feel that life should be preserved. I am not talking about the crime which lead to it.
- What I want to ask you, 80s, is that you feel so strongly about this, that you feel it should be legislated that a termination cannot occur, and you think this needs to be applied to everyone? Everyone, regardless of whether they intellectually, morally, or religiously agree or not?

 

[trevster2k]

What's more important, a person's comfort, or a potential human life?

I don't think the decision to have an abortion by a woman is based on convenience, it is based on many many factors including acceptance by family & friends, quality of life for child, quality of life for woman, financial situation,etc.

I would think that it is an incredibly devastating decision for a woman to arrive at regardless of the situation.

It's not like going and getting your teeth cleaned.