Why is it such a crime to be critical here?

[doctorwho]

doctorwho....you scare me...how the hell did we just, basically, write the same post?

Ummm... just ignore that little camera you see by your computer. It's nothing - just a decoration. Yeah... that's it... decoration.

We probably wrote similar thoughts because for both of us it was painfully obvious how to get criticisms accepted. U2 have done many things I don't like, but I don't go around saying how song X is crap compared to song Y. I accept that it is *my* view that I dislike a song and that many others will disagree. But lately, I'm not seeing this type of behavior from many here who criticize. They rip U2 to shreds and then make us appear to be the "bad guys" because we criticize their criticisms. Irrational thinking - ya gotta love it.

 

[Reggie Thee Dog]

I think it has something to do with our "age", but don't worry, I'm not telling anyone....

 

[indra]

Ummm... just ignore that little camera you see by your computer. It's nothing - just a decoration. Yeah... that's it... decoration.

We probably wrote similar thoughts because for both of us it was painfully obvious how to get criticisms accepted. U2 have done many things I don't like, but I don't go around saying how song X is crap compared to song Y. I accept that it is *my* view that I dislike a song and that many others will disagree. But lately, I'm not seeing this type of behavior from many here who criticize. They rip U2 to shreds and then make us appear to be the "bad guys" because we criticize their criticisms. Irrational thinking - ya gotta love it.

I could buy most of the "those who criticise are irrational" posts if those who criticise the criticisers would apply the same standard to those who irrationally gush. If you can accept (or just ignore) the irrational "U2 is the best ever at everything and everything they do, have done, or will ever do, is perfect" you should also be willing and able to accept (or ignore) the critical as well.

And you must admit that no matter how well thought out and written a critical review is, there are many people here who will bash the poster.

 

[Axver]

I could buy most of the "those who criticise are irrational" posts if those who criticise the criticisers would apply the same standard to those who irrationally gush. If you can accept (or just ignore) the irrational "U2 is the best ever at everything and everything they do, have done, or will ever do, is perfect" you should also be willing and able to accept (or ignore) the critical as well.

And you must admit that no matter how well thought out and written a critical review is, there are many people here who will bash the poster.

The thing is that this is a FAN site. Gushing, even if it isn't necessarily based in reality, is to be expected because this site revolves around the fans. It's not meant to be equal. If it were meant to be equal, this site would invite and market to haters as well as fans.

I don't have a problem with criticism. Anyone who knows my posting style knows I don't fawn over everything U2's done - look at what I have stated about Achtung Baby not being a masterpiece. But people who come here and just make mindless attacks against U2 (think Ponkine) and then don't listen when they are corrected, they get on my nerves. Especially because I know that if you listen to multiple viewpoints here, you can learn quite a lot. I turned from an Ultra Violet hater into someone who enjoys the song purely because I was prepared to consider what others here say about the song and gave it a few chances to grow on me.

 

[sallycinnamon78]

I think it has something to do with our "age", but don't worry, I'm not telling anyone....

Nothing wrong with a good bit of age sweetie!" (that's going to be my theorty until i'm 30, anyway!)

 

[indra]

The thing is that this is a FAN site. Gushing, even if it isn't necessarily based in reality, is to be expected because this site revolves around the fans. It's not meant to be equal. If it were meant to be equal, this site would invite and market to haters as well as fans.

I don't have a problem with criticism. Anyone who knows my posting style knows I don't fawn over everything U2's done - look at what I have stated about Achtung Baby not being a masterpiece. But people who come here and just make mindless attacks against U2 (think Ponkine) and then don't listen when they are corrected, they get on my nerves. Especially because I know that if you listen to multiple viewpoints here, you can learn quite a lot. I turned from an Ultra Violet hater into someone who enjoys the song purely because I was prepared to consider what others here say about the song and gave it a few chances to grow on me.

I don't think someone who is critical of a particular album or even an era is necessarily a "hater" (which is a word I think is tossed around a bit too frequently here). Fans -- real fans, at that -- can both intensely like and intensely dislike work by their favorite artist.

But what I find is when pressed most people can honestly come up with only three or four posters who are consistantly negative about U2. However, often when someone else (especially someone relatively new) posts criticism of a particular album, he or she gets jumped on and called a hater or troll (or even accused of being one of the reviled posters who I won't mention by name under an alterego).

All I'd like to see is for people to be given a chance to voice their opinion before being tarred with the "hater" brush. And why, if they are voicing an opinion, does someone need to be "corrected?" So often the people who are so angry because the "haters" tell them they are wrong to like an album are equally quick to tell the "haters" they are wrong to dislike it. It's all just a matter of opinion.

I've never been a fan of Achtung Baby either.

 

[Hoodlem]

I feel that anyone can and should say whatever they feel or want to say on this forum. Positive or negative, it doesn't matter. That is what a "forum" is for. It is to express what you are feeling about a topic. The topic of this forum is U2. So anything about U2 is fair game as I see it.

I love the new album by the way, and I was one who was put off a bit by ATYCLB.

 

[Reggie Thee Dog]

See, indra you don't always agree with or gush over everything U2 does, but you are rational and I haven't seen you get caught up in inflamatory retheoric so I can read your posts, and not get put off.

There are 3 or 4 posters here who lash out and refuse to hear anything in refute to their postings. That I can't stand. I have in some cases defended the poster and carried on good conversation, but it gets tiring. Like I posted earlier it childish, or at least a cry for attention.

And as I stated in the first response to this thread, it is a U2 FAN site and negative viewpoints will be challenged. Go over to another band's fansite and post negative comments and see what happens.

Fans - short for Fanatics. Most of us would defend U2 to the death because they and the music mean something to us. Why is this so hard to understand?

 

[thrillme]

Bunch of fools!
Do you even hear yourself? You're the most boring posters on the forum. "I like realy criticism, but not just senseless bashing, no one says anything about why not liking the song/album, all thay say is U2 is a sell out, these are rediculous, illogical, repetitive trolls, bla bla bla....!"

Well, tell us something logical, non-repetitive, senseful about what do you have to say back to the critics! Cause I didin't see any "real" reasons why you like the album, and don't think U2 have changed to worse. C'mon, I'd like to hear it...

I use the same answer I'd give to any critics,

"Lets see you do better."

If you're a guitar player, you go right ahead and critique Edge's playing, I don't play guitar, at all, so I'm not going to be critical of Edge's playing. All I can say, I like how that guitar part sounds/,I don't like it/ it's meh/it's cool/it rocks, but to go further and say, he should do this or do that, or he's not playing like he used to, that's not my place.

Same goes with Adam, Bono, and Larry.

I don't like "Bad" that much, but I'm not going to write some huge essay on why, might just be that I like up-tempo songs more than slower ones, that's not an issue with U2, that's my preference.

I've a 4-way tie with my favourite U2 song.

New Year's Day
Gloria
"Streets"
Hold me, thrill me...kill me."

Notice they're all up tempo songs? That's just my preference, I don't find that something to critique.

Now Larry's "door" paintings on the other hand, I can critique those, I could do better, though I like the abstract influence in them.

 

[U2girl]

You know what's also funny - the way the negative posters (and I think we all know those few who this applies to) always say "All that... sounds like the 80's" and "How to dismantle... sounds like the 80's" yet if U2 sounded like the 90's you can bet they'd be praising the ground beneath their feet.
Gotta love the irony and double standards here, and the drama they create.
How can we disagree with them? How can we defend the band? How can we like the albums they dislike? How can we not see we are wrong? I also really like it when a All that... or Dismantle... appreciation thread is hijacked, only to turn into bashfest. I also don't see the logic in the attitude "U2 isn't making music I like anymore, so I don't like them anymore".

BTW, there is even no comparison between the positive and negative posters in terms of rudeness and excessive amount of posts.
Listen to whatever you want, but please stop the eternal complaining. Let others enjoy the last two albums in peace, focus on what you like rather than what you dislike - this is not henryrollins.com, after all.

(and let's not even try the "but the other side is also complaining" debate. if it wasn't for the negativity - especially since the release of Dismantle... - everything would be fine and this forum wouldn't escalate.)
Saying "ignore them or don't say anything" while letting them get away with stuff is... rich, to say the least. If we have to shut up and put up with their posts, so should they.

 

[Marr]

You know what's also funny - the way the negative posters (and I think we all know those few who this applies to) always say "All that... sounds like the 80's" and "How to dismantle... sounds like the 80's" yet if U2 sounded like the 90's you can bet they'd be praising the ground beneath their feet.

.

Your posts are teaching me how to kneel.....

I'm afraid you're missing the point. I never said that I would like to hear POP part II, AB II or whatever. Neither did anyone of the "critics".
What I would like to hear is U2 with balls. U2 not being afraid to take a chance again, I would like to hear the sound that would drown out the world, something schoking, powerful, controvertial...
I don't want to hear those meaningless pop/rock tunes, with throwaway lyrics like "Vertigo"...is that U2?
Where are lyrcis like "One", "Wake Up Dead Man", "Exit" or "Bullet The Blue Sky" ?
Where's the power and stunning force of tracks like "Mofo" or "The Fly" ?
Where's the experimental, challening sounds, that only U2 could make, in songs like "Numb" or "Lemon"?
Where are those dramatic Bono's vocals, like those on "Ground Beneath Her Feet" or "Until the End Of The Word"?

You say we aren't true fans couse we critisize HTDAAB, yet you critisize POP whenever you can, and that's what i would call senseless critique and bashing. And let me say that again-Pop was called pop saracsticly, couse it was an anti-pop record, while HTDAAB is truly a pop album.

 

[Marr]

Listen to whatever you want, but please stop the eternal complaining. Let others enjoy the last two albums in peace, focus on what you like rather than what you dislike - this is not henryrollins.com, after all.

good thinking...
who'd care about U2 or something?
it's not importatnt, why should we waste our breath on such topic...
sorry that we cared and that we had our own opinions.

 

[vivacolombia]

Your posts are teaching me how to kneel.....

I'm afraid you're missing the point. I never said that I would like to hear POP part II, AB II or whatever. Neither did anyone of the "critics".
What I would like to hear is U2 with balls. U2 not being afraid to take a chance again, I would like to hear the sound that would drown out the world, something schoking, powerful, controvertial...
I don't want to hear those meaningless pop/rock tunes, with throwaway lyrics like "Vertigo"...is that U2?
Where are lyrcis like "One", "Wake Up Dead Man", "Exit" or "Bullet The Blue Sky" ?
Where's the power and stunning force of tracks like "Mofo" or "The Fly" ?
Where's the experimental, challening sounds, that only U2 could make, in songs like "Numb" or "Lemon"?
Where are those dramatic Bono's vocals, like those on "Ground Beneath Her Feet" or "Until the End Of The Word"?

You say we aren't true fans couse we critisize HTDAAB, yet you critisize POP whenever you can, and that's what i would call senseless critique and bashing. And let me say that again-Pop was called pop saracsticly, couse it was an anti-pop record, while HTDAAB is truly a pop album.

I agree Pop was actually an anti-pop album, but HTDAAB is a crappy POP album

 

[U2girl]

Your posts are teaching me how to kneel.....

I'm afraid you're missing the point. I never said that I would like to hear POP part II, AB II or whatever. Neither did anyone of the "critics".
What I would like to hear is U2 with balls. U2 not being afraid to take a chance again, I would like to hear the sound that would drown out the world, something schoking, powerful, controvertial...
I don't want to hear those meaningless pop/rock tunes, with throwaway lyrics like "Vertigo"...is that U2?
Where are lyrcis like "One", "Wake Up Dead Man", "Exit" or "Bullet The Blue Sky" ?
Where's the power and stunning force of tracks like "Mofo" or "The Fly" ?
Where's the experimental, challening sounds, that only U2 could make, in songs like "Numb" or "Lemon"?
Where are those dramatic Bono's vocals, like those on "Ground Beneath Her Feet" or "Until the End Of The Word"?

You say we aren't true fans couse we critisize HTDAAB, yet you critisize POP whenever you can, and that's what i would call senseless critique and bashing. And let me say that again-Pop was called pop saracsticly, couse it was an anti-pop record, while HTDAAB is truly a pop album.

Oh really? Then how come so many of the anti All that/Dismantle... posts say "U2 were so much better in the 90s, I wish they'd take risks again"? At least admit it.

Vertigo is just as much U2 as are the other songs you mentioned. Same band made all those songs.

There are still great Bono vocals, like Kite and Sometimes.

Now this is the problem: unlike those who say "ATYCLB/HTDAAB sucks" and just leave it at that, all I - and others - ever said was that Pop is unfinished and uneven. It isn't bashing, and it makes more sense than 90% of the anti post-2000 posts out there. What, so 90's U2 is untouchable to fans, not to be critisized? Hello censorship.
I know it was a sarcastic name, though I don't see what makes HTDAAB such a pop album. I could see that for most of ATYCLB, but not HTDAAB.

As for not being true fans, I never said that. I have, however, read loads of posts how I (and others) am a "blind follower" and a "sheep" for daring to like the last two albums.

 

[U2girl]

good thinking...
who'd care about U2 or something?
it's not importatnt, why should we waste our breath on such topic...
sorry that we cared and that we had our own opinions.

It's not about having an opinion, the problem is ATYCLB/HTDAAB haters jam their view down everyone else's throats by posting incessantly. For every "I like HTDAAB" post there are bound to be at least 5 "you're wrong" replies.

 

[ponkine]

Pop is unfinished and uneven.

Just because U2 said that, right ?

If they were said "ATYCLB was unfinished" everybody would talk about how unfinished ATYCLB was. Don´t believe every single word they say, please grow up and make your own opinions

 

[Aardvark747]

I

LOVE

POP

JUST

THE

WAY

IT

IS

(EVEN

MIAMI)

 

[TheFlyOnTheWall]

It's not about having an opinion, the problem is ATYCLB/HTDAAB haters jam their view down everyone else's throats by posting incessantly. For every "I like HTDAAB" post there are bound to be at least 5 "you're wrong" replies.

And yet, on this "negative" HTDAAB thread, we have 4 pages. For now. Don't say we are the only pain in the arse.

 

[doctorwho]

I could buy most of the "those who criticise are irrational" posts if those who criticise the criticisers would apply the same standard to those who irrationally gush. If you can accept (or just ignore) the irrational "U2 is the best ever at everything and everything they do, have done, or will ever do, is perfect" you should also be willing and able to accept (or ignore) the critical as well.

And you must admit that no matter how well thought out and written a critical review is, there are many people here who will bash the poster.

To address your latter thought first, I haven't seen may "well thought out critical reviews" as of late. When I do, I accept them. But that's me - you are correct in that others will bash. Such is the nature of posting something negative on a fan site. If you are willing to post something negative, you then must be willing to accept that many others will disagree.

As for the first paragraph, I completely agree. I get just as annoyed by those who essentially "worship" the band. I find those responses even more irrational. And I've encountered them - especially on the old WIRE. At a U2 convention in Chicago, I once made a joking comment about Edge in a video some of us were watching. Many WIRE members were at this convention. Some fans glared at me with the most evil eyes ready to jump because I dared make a joking somewhat insulting comment about their precious Edge. These people really need help.

However, we aren't talking about that in this thread now, are we? Focus please. Don't try shifting the topic to justify poorly written critical attacks.

 

[Marr]

What, so 90's U2 is untouchable to fans, not to be critisized? Hello censorship.

I can accept the fact that you don't like the POP album. For me, however, next to Achtung Baby, it's U2's best record. It has all the qualities HTDAAB lacks.
It has great lyrics (not only in songs like "Wake Up Dead Man" or "Please", but also in tracks like "Discotheque", just listen to it, and you'll find a deeper meaning).
It sounds very fresh, innovitive, dynamic, U2 never managed to get such extremes onto the same record(it starts with Discotheque, ends with Wake up Dead Man).
It has blow-your-house-down tunes like "Last Night On Earth" or "Mofo", beautiful ballads like "If God Will Send His Angels", it's political but also very personal like on "Please", experimetal trip-hop tunes like "Miami" which is a great song, the riff is excellent, It can be very funny like on "Playboy Mansion" or very serious like on "Wake Up Dead Man", it contains amazing musical ideas, each song is great, each is a individual piece, yet they connect somehow, they are very oragnic, they fit to each other, even though they are very different songs.
Now, how does HTDAAB look compared to that?

 

[TheFlyOnTheWall]

(cut)
Now, how does HTDAAB look compared to that?

Blown.

I agree with everything you've said in this thread, Marr. You can start signing me, too!
Then we'll share the flameing!

 

[Marr]

yeah!
Pop-followers of the world unite and take over !!

 

[Zoots]

I can accept the fact that you don't like the POP album. For me, however, next to Achtung Baby, it's U2's best record. It has all the qualities HTDAAB lacks.
It has great lyrics (not only in songs like "Wake Up Dead Man" or "Please", but also in tracks like "Discotheque", just listen to it, and you'll find a deeper meaning).
It sounds very fresh, innovitive, dynamic, U2 never managed to get such extremes onto the same record(it starts with Discotheque, ends with Wake up Dead Man).
It has blow-your-house-down tunes like "Last Night On Earth" or "Mofo", beautiful ballads like "If God Will Send His Angels", it's political but also very personal like on "Please", experimetal trip-hop tunes like "Miami" which is a great song, the riff is excellent, It can be very funny like on "Playboy Mansion" or very serious like on "Wake Up Dead Man", it contains amazing musical ideas, each song is great, each is a individual piece, yet they connect somehow, they are very oragnic, they fit to each other, even though they are very different songs.
Now, how does HTDAAB look compared to that?

so true so true so true!!! It starts with the romp of Discotheque and ends with the helplessness of WUDM. So what if it's depressing? The Wall was too... and it was genius just like Pop is.

 

[Zoots]

I'm reading the UNCUT guide Legends #3 of U2 and I quote Bono saying "The material on that record is up there with our best" before adding "It's just that we didn't finish it". So at least he acknowledged that it was really good.

 

[U2girl]

I can accept the fact that you don't like the POP album. For me, however, next to Achtung Baby, it's U2's best record. It has all the qualities HTDAAB lacks.
It has great lyrics (not only in songs like "Wake Up Dead Man" or "Please", but also in tracks like "Discotheque", just listen to it, and you'll find a deeper meaning).
It sounds very fresh, innovitive, dynamic, U2 never managed to get such extremes onto the same record(it starts with Discotheque, ends with Wake up Dead Man).
It has blow-your-house-down tunes like "Last Night On Earth" or "Mofo", beautiful ballads like "If God Will Send His Angels", it's political but also very personal like on "Please", experimetal trip-hop tunes like "Miami" which is a great song, the riff is excellent, It can be very funny like on "Playboy Mansion" or very serious like on "Wake Up Dead Man", it contains amazing musical ideas, each song is great, each is a individual piece, yet they connect somehow, they are very oragnic, they fit to each other, even though they are very different songs.
Now, how does HTDAAB look compared to that?

You said my posts on Pop were "senseless critique and bashing". So yeah, it really looks like you accept my opinion.

Everything Pop tries to do, Achtung Baby and Zooropa did better IMO.

 

[U2girl]

And yet, on this "negative" HTDAAB thread, we have 4 pages. For now. Don't say we are the only pain in the arse.

Exactly! I bet there will be a new thread like this really soon, too. You are the only pain, since it's the negative posters who keep coming up with this.

 

[TheFlyOnTheWall]

Exactly! I bet there will be a new thread like this really soon, too. You are the only pain, since it's the negative posters who keep coming up with this.

If you say so...

 

[Marr]

Exactly! I bet there will be a new thread like this really soon, too. You are the only pain, since it's the negative posters who keep coming up with this.

Well, as they say "polite conversation is no conversation"

 

[Marr]

I wonder, if critisizing HTDAAB is "negative posting", then critisizing POP isn't?

 

[roy]

If you say so...

Ever hear the saying, 'Less is more'?

Or even, 'Give it a rest for f**ks sake you're doing my bloody head-in with your incessant, negative, childish posting'?