HTDAAB: 2nd Side - Classic, 1st Side - Eh...

[Lancemc]

Re: Songs that should've been cut; B-sides that should've been kept

There are a ton of songs that U2 should have cut from their albums; likewise, there are a ton of b-sides that should have been kept on the albums...examples:

SHOULD'VE BEEN CUT:
Who's Gonna Ride Your Wild Horses from AB
Ultraviolet (Light My Way) from AB
The First Time from Zooropa
If God Will Send His Angels from Pop
Last Night On Earth from Pop
Please from Pop
When I Look At The World from ATYCLB
Miracle Drug from HTDAAB
City of Blinding Lights from HTDAAB


SHOULD'VE BEEN ADDED:
Walk On By (demo session) to AB
Pop Muzik to Pop
Slug to Pop
Always Forever Now to Pop
North And South Of The River To PopI'm Not Your Baby to Pop
Don't Take Your Guns To Town to ATYCLB
Dreaming With Tears In My Eyes to ATYCLBFast Cars to HTDAAB

Keeping in mind that this is totally subjective, I think it's worth saying, just for the sake of saying it, that this is rediculous. first of all, two of these are covers (haven't heard Dreaming With Tears in your Eyes before) and you can't possibly justify putting Pop Muzik and DTYGTT on their respective albums. SLug and Always Forever Now were already on Passengers and not to mention how rediculous they would have sounded on POP. AB is perfect the way it is. End of Story. And cutting Pop's strongest track (Please) to put on the ones you suggested is not only a bad desicion, it's just stupid.

 

[FullonEdge2]

I know. Pop without "Please" would make want to crawl up into a dank cave and rot for years before dying a horrible, miserable, lonely death.

good one

 

[dmesq]

Does a cover preclude a song from being on a U2 album? I seem to recall All Along The Watchtower being on R&H, and lord knows their cover of Don't Take Your Guns To Town is MUCH better than that.

The First Time...yuck. It's got Hallmark card written all over it. It's yet another example of U2's gushiest sentimentality, and had no place whatsoever on such a forward-marching album.

Here's my favorite revised tracklisting for POP:

Pop Muzik
Discotheque (single mix)
Do You Feel Loved
Mofo (remix)Slug
Always Forever Now
Miami
The Playboy Mansion
North And South Of The River
I'm Not Your Baby
Gone (Best Of 1990-2000 mix)
Wake Up Dead Man

It was an album that needed to be as revolutionary if not more than Zooropa, and I personally think this tracklist finally does it justice. Give it a try.

 

[Lancemc]

Rattle and Hum is an Obvious exception, especially considering that All Along the Watchtower was a live recording. And sorry, but Don't Take Your Guns to Town is a horrible track, and would have made ATYCLB even worse ( although I still adore that album, I just can't possibly imagine have that god-aweful cover in there.)

 

[dmesq]

Keeping in mind that this is totally subjective, I think it's worth saying, just for the sake of saying it, that this is rediculous. first of all, two of these are covers (haven't heard Dreaming With Tears in your Eyes before) and you can't possibly justify putting Pop Muzik and DTYGTT on their respective albums. SLug and Always Forever Now were already on Passengers and not to mention how rediculous they would have sounded on POP. AB is perfect the way it is. End of Story. And cutting Pop's strongest track (Please) to put on the ones you suggested is not only a bad desicion, it's just stupid. - LanceMC

Oh LanceMC, you can't tell me that AB is perfect. Take away Wild Horses and Ultraviolet and Acrobat (all dead wood), and put on Satellite of Love in place of them, and then maybe you've got a perfect album. Maybe.

Always Forever Now & Slug on Pop would've sounded as ridiculous...well, as ridiculous as Lemon on Zooropa - which was the most brilliant thing on that album. Total mindf*ck that kicked everyone in the balls and said "what the hell is U2 doing???" With exception to Discotheque and Mofo, that's what Pop WASN'T.

 

[FullonEdge2]

Sorry, but I would HAIT it if you devised the tracklistings. I mean, come on, IMO City of Blinding Lights is the best song on HTDAAB and you would CUT IT?! You would also cut Miracle Drug?

I've always been interested in what people think and how their brains work, and you would provide me with an excellent subject on which to perform my first experiments.

 

[Sleep Over Jack]

The First Time is a great song, and if you think its too soft or whatever you must hate most of U2's ballads eh. All Along The Watchtower was a live cover on a semi-live album that wasn't really a proper studio album..putting covers on real studio efforts would be so crappy and out-of place..

 

[dmesq]

Rattle and Hum is an Obvious exception, especially considering that All Along the Watchtower was a live recording. And sorry, but Don't Take Your Guns to Town is a horrible track, and would have made ATYCLB even worse ( although I still adore that album, I just can't possibly imagine have that god-aweful cover in there.)

I cannot even believe what I'm reading!! How can you call DTYGTT an "awful" track, it was brilliant and inspired, Johnny Cash turned reggae, and the most endearing and down to earth thing U2 have done until In A Little While!!!! It was so much better than either Kite or Walk On or When I Look At The @#$% World, for god's sakes - all those boring overblown halfassed rock anthems that we'd heard a zillion times before! It was fresh and new, and lord knows we can always use more fresh & new U2!

 

[dmesq]

The First Time is a great song, and if you think its too soft or whatever you must hate most of U2's ballads eh. All Along The Watchtower was a live cover on a semi-live album that wasn't really a proper studio album..putting covers on real studio efforts would be so crappy and out-of place..

PEOPLE!!! Have we ever by chance heard of THE CLASH??? The band that Larry Mullen had on his @#$% t-shirt for the entire Zoo TV tour??? The Clash was EVERYTHING in their music, and that's what U2 have always been so inspired by - let's do rock here, folk there, ballads here, reggae there, weird experimentation whenever we feel like it! Plus the Clash wallowed in cover songs - for god's sakes, their biggest hit off their infamous 'London Calling' album was a cover, Train In Vain!!! What's with all the aesthetic conservativism around here??? I get the feeling if it was up to most of you good folks, U2 wouldn't have a single song that wouldn't make the Top 40 on their albums. Sheesh.

 

[Lancemc]

I cannot even believe what I'm reading!! How can you call DTYGTT an "awful" track, it was brilliant and inspired, Johnny Cash turned reggae, and the most endearing and down to earth thing U2 have done until In A Little While!!!! It was so much better than either Kite or Walk On or When I Look At The @#$% World, for god's sakes - all those boring overblown halfassed rock anthems that we'd heard a zillion times before! It was fresh and new, and lord knows we can always use more fresh & new U2!

yeah, when JOhnny fucking Cash recorded it maybe. But the U2 cover is shit. U2 were never a good cover band, they've admitted that, and this just prooves it even more. Just being experminetal and different doens't make good music. good music makes for good music, but if it's experimental and new at the same time, then that makes it even better. So, U2's DTYGTT is neither NEW nor good music. And you are just trying to stir things up in here when talking about AB, you can't possilby believe that Acrobat and Ultraviolet are weak tracks. AND you say to put in Satellite of Love, another cover nontheless, though it's admittedly one of U2's less shitty covers.

 

[dmesq]

The First Time is a great song, and if you think its too soft or whatever you must hate most of U2's ballads eh.

I'll tell you this much - The First Time has nothing on I Still Haven't Found, All I Want Is You, If You Wear That Velvet Dress, Stuck In A Moment, SYCMIOYO, or even One Step Closer or Grace. It's just the Edge humping one note on a piano, like October - what's the big deal already? Snooze.

 

[UnforgettableLemon]

PEOPLE!!! Have we ever by chance heard of THE CLASH??? The band that Larry Mullen had on his @#$% t-shirt for the entire Zoo TV tour??? The Clash was EVERYTHING in their music, and that's what U2 have always been so inspired by - let's do rock here, folk there, ballads here, reggae there, weird experimentation whenever we feel like it! Plus the Clash wallowed in cover songs - for god's sakes, their biggest hit off their infamous 'London Calling' album was a cover, Train In Vain!!!

WRONG. Train in Vain's title and verse were references to other songs, but the song is credited to Mick Jones and Joe Strummer.


That said, I understand what you're saying, but being experimental and making new arrangements does not by default make a song good. Half of Sandinista! is shite, even the band seems to think so. So I think arguing the Clash here is a moot point.

 

[dmesq]

yeah, when JOhnny fucking Cash recorded it maybe. But the U2 cover is shit. U2 were never a good cover band, they've admitted that, and this just prooves it even more. Just being experminetal and different doens't make good music. good music makes for good music, but if it's experimental and new at the same time, then that makes it even better. So, U2's DTYGTT is neither NEW nor good music. And you are just trying to stir things up in here when talking about AB, you can't possilby believe that Acrobat and Ultraviolet are weak tracks. AND you say to put in Satellite of Love, another cover nontheless, though it's admittedly one of U2's less shitty covers.

Dear LanceMC, have you been smoking crack cocaine for the last four years? How can you totally pan such a beautiful, soulful track by U2, and then defend the completely generic "wocka-wocka" Eno-esque guitar playing on Ultraviolet??? I swear that song is U2 turning into their own worst parody of themselves. I'll bet you just aren't a fan of reggae at all in the first place.

Sure, U2's done some lousy cover versions. But are you really going to tell me that U2 did terrible covers of Stand By Me, Maggie's Farm, People Get Ready, Dancing Barefoot, Unchained Melody, Help, Rain, Everlasting Love, Satellite Of Love, Night And Day, Fortunate Son, and (well, I guess you are going to tell me) DTYGTT???

 

[Flying FuManchu]

I thought Don't Take Your Guns to Town was a nice cover... one of their better covers... very atmospheric but simple stuff. They maybe an awful cover band but that doesn't mean they haven't done some solid covers...

 

[dmesq]

WRONG. Train in Vain's title and verse were references to other songs, but the song is credited to Mick Jones and Joe Strummer.


That said, I understand what you're saying, but being experimental and making new arrangements does not by default make a song good. Half of Sandinista! is shite, even the band seems to think so. So I think arguing the Clash here is a moot point.

Alright, point taken, but I really have to argue that the OTHER half of Sandanista! is absolutely @#$% BRILLIANT, and in my opinion the best music they ever recorded - for god's sakes, you wanna talk integrity, it even won the Village Voice's Critics Award for Best Album of the Year, and that's totally saying something!! And c'mon, it's fun to see a band let it all hang out, just like the Beatles on the White Album.
In a way, I'm almost starting to think of HTDAAB as the 2nd disc of U2's double album, beginning with ATYCLB - after all, OOTS and a few other songs were recorded at the ATYCLB sessions...it's kind of cool if you think of it that way, and makes the intolerable parts a little more tolerable

 

[UnforgettableLemon]

Alright, point taken, but I really have to argue that the OTHER half of Sandanista! is absolutely @#$% BRILLIANT, and in my opinion the best music they ever recorded - for god's sakes, you wanna talk integrity, it even won the Village Voice's Critics Award for Best Album of the Year, and that's totally saying something!! And c'mon, it's fun to see a band let it all hang out, just like the Beatles on the White Album.
In a way, I'm almost starting to think of HTDAAB as the 2nd disc of U2's double album, beginning with ATYCLB - after all, OOTS and a few other songs were recorded at the ATYCLB sessions...it's kind of cool if you think of it that way, and makes the intolerable parts a little more tolerable

I don't agree with you about anything on U2, but yes, the other half of Sandinista is amazing. But it doesn't come close to London Calling. (Which did have two covers, incidentally: "Brand New Cadillac" and "Revolution Rock")

 

[Sleep Over Jack]

I'll tell you this much - The First Time has nothing on I Still Haven't Found, All I Want Is You, If You Wear That Velvet Dress, Stuck In A Moment, SYCMIOYO, or even One Step Closer or Grace. It's just the Edge humping one note on a piano, like October - what's the big deal already? Snooze.

Its a more subtle song like I already said..perhaps a song like that is over your head. Now who is being conservative?


(and for the record I love experimentation, my fave U2 era is the '90s, but I actually see putting covers on albums as lazy, conservative and boring )

 

[dmesq]

I don't agree with you about anything on U2, but yes, the other half of Sandinista is amazing. But it doesn't come close to London Calling. (Which did have two covers, incidentally: "Brand New Cadillac" and "Revolution Rock")

Dear Unforgettable Lemon, I don't even know what the hell you think vs. what I think about U2, so it's tought to know if I disagree with what you think, but I'll take your word for it. Anyways, thanks for backing up my point re: The Clash, cover songs on LPs, etc.

I personally think London Calling is WAY overrated, though. I honestly even prefer Combat Rock to that one. London Calling's got a few very strong songs but to me the majority of it is like thin Elvis Costello. I liked it when the Clash really starting branching out into reggae (Sandanista!) and funk (Combat Rock). Experimentalism & risk = good!

 

[dmesq]

Its a more subtle song like I already said..perhaps a song like that is over your head. Now who is being conservative?


(and for the record I love experimentation, my fave U2 era is the '90s, but I actually see putting covers on albums as lazy, conservative and boring )

Uh, no, actually I think a song like The First Time is beneath me. It's dime-store grandiloquizing and pomposity that is about as genuinely meaningful as a movie like "Pay It Forward" starring Kevin Spacey. Puke.

An Irish rock band doing a Johnny Cash folk song as reggae - could someone PLEASE tell me what is conservative about that???

Lazy, conservative & boring = Walk On, Kite & When I Look At The World on ATYCLB and Miracle Drug & COBY on HTDAAB

 

[UnforgettableLemon]

Dear Unforgettable Lemon, I don't even know what the hell you think vs. what I think about U2, so it's tought to know if I disagree with what you think, but I'll take your word for it. Anyways, thanks for backing up my point re: The Clash, cover songs on LPs, etc.

I personally think London Calling is WAY overrated, though. I honestly even prefer Combat Rock to that one. London Calling's got a few very strong songs but to me the majority of it is like thin Elvis Costello. I liked it when the Clash really starting branching out into reggae (Sandanista!) and funk (Combat Rock). Experimentalism & risk = good!

In regards to U2, I think most of the tracks you said you'd pull off of their respective albums are brilliant and that the replacements are near-shite. With the exception of North and South of the River, a wonderful song.

London Calling, how do I love thee? London Calling, Brand New Cadillac, Death or Glory, The Card Cheat, Clampdown, Guns of Brixton, The Right Profile, Koka-Kola, Rudie Can't Fail, Spanish Bombs, Lost in the Supermarket, Hateful, Train in Vain, Four Horsemen, I'm Not Down- I don't think there's a weak track among those. The only two songs I'm not particularly fond of are Revolution Rock and Lovers Rock.

Sandinista! has far more than just reggae. I mean, you've got waltz, gospel elements, funk, dub, hip-hop, electronic stuff. I think London Calling is more reggae (and by extension, ska) than Sandinista!. Again, I enjoy both, but I think London Calling is damn near flawless.

Sad to say, the only songs on Combat Rock that really interest me are the big four- Rock the Casbah, Should I Stay or Should I Go, Know Your Rights (Why Ghetto Defendant made the Essential and this didn't boggles my mind), and Straight to Hell(This is a brilliant fucking song). At least it's not Cut the Crap.

Though contemporaries, I really don't see anything similar to Elvis Costello (also an amazing lyricist and musician) here, except maybe the reggae-rock elements of "Watching the Detectives"... but even then, it's because of similar influences, not The Clash trying to emulate EC.

 

[dmesq]

In regards to U2, I think most of the tracks you said you'd pull off of their respective albums are brilliant and that the replacements are near-shite. With the exception of North and South of the River, a wonderful song.

London Calling, how do I love thee? London Calling, Brand New Cadillac, Death or Glory, The Card Cheat, Clampdown, Guns of Brixton, The Right Profile, Koka-Kola, Rudie Can't Fail, Spanish Bombs, Lost in the Supermarket, Hateful, Train in Vain, Four Horsemen, I'm Not Down- I don't think there's a weak track among those. The only two songs I'm not particularly fond of are Revolution Rock and Lovers Rock.

Sandinista! has far more than just reggae. I mean, you've got waltz, gospel elements, funk, dub, hip-hop, electronic stuff. I think London Calling is more reggae (and by extension, ska) than Sandinista!. Again, I enjoy both, but I think London Calling is damn near flawless.

Sad to say, the only songs on Combat Rock that really interest me are the big four- Rock the Casbah, Should I Stay or Should I Go, Know Your Rights (Why Ghetto Defendant made the Essential and this didn't boggles my mind), and Straight to Hell(This is a brilliant fucking song). At least it's not Cut the Crap.

Dear UnforgettableLemon, at last I have found someone here who knows their stuff!!! You, good sir, are a formidable rock fan and highly worthy debater-of-rock. I raise my proverbial Guinness to you

I truly cannot bear all the songs I mentioned earlier that I wish I could remove from U2's albums. They are all stodgy, bloated, derivative, boring, uninventive, sloppy, lazy, overheated & then re-heated, and numbingly dull. Whereas the tracks I chose to replace them would have fit in much better with the overall themes and spirit that the albums were shooting for. Give me specifics and I'll go toe-to-toe w. ya, but I stand by all my claims, and if I ever get to be the one repackaging U2's albums for re-release, you'd best believe there'll be some serious alterations in the works

THANK YOU for reminding me of Rudie Can't Fail. That may be the Clash's best song EVER. And I love Clampdown and Train in Vain, but I can do without a whole lot of the others. My personal faves on Combat Rock are Sean Flynn (this was U2's Passengers ahead of its time!!!), Innoculated City (such a great little rock ditty!), and Death Is A Star - a fantastic ballad about a serial killer, how can you not love it???

BTW, have you heard the new Nick Cave & Bad Seeds double album, Abattoir Blues/The Lyre of Orpheus yet? There are some absolutely amazing songs there - "Breathless" is my favorite song of the year, it's like Van Morrison back on 'Astral Weeks' and 'Moondance.'

(U2 fans should know Nick Cave - Flood produced their 'Boatman's Call' LP.)

 

[UnforgettableLemon]

BTW, have you heard the new Nick Cave & Bad Seeds double album, Abattoir Blues/The Lyre of Orpheus yet? There are some absolutely amazing songs there - "Breathless" is my favorite song of the year, it's like Van Morrison back on 'Astral Weeks' and 'Moondance.'

(U2 fans should know Nick Cave - Flood produced their 'Boatman's Call' LP.)

Love Nick Cave, haven't been able to find the album around here yet, though. I do have a problem with lumping 'Astral Weeks' and 'Moondance' into the same category of music, though. AW is much more eerie and melodic, with all that harp. Moondance is more white soul music, though with a different arrangement "Into the Mystic" could have fit pretty well on Astral Weeks. But it's the pivotal track on Moondance, so that's absolutely unnecessary. In my completely subjective world (which is why I refuse to debate U2 with you, I can't make their music objective enough to really make a good point), side one of Moondance is the single greatest side 1 of any album ever made. Period.

And it Stoned Me...
Moondance
Crazy Love
Caravan
Into the Mystic

 

[dmesq]

Love Nick Cave, haven't been able to find the album around here yet, though. I do have a problem with lumping 'Astral Weeks' and 'Moondance' into the same category of music, though. AW is much more eerie and melodic, with all that harp. Moondance is more white soul music, though with a different arrangement "Into the Mystic" could have fit pretty well on Astral Weeks. But it's the pivotal track on Moondance, so that's absolutely unnecessary. In my completely subjective world (which is why I refuse to debate U2 with you, I can't make their music objective enough to really make a good point), side one of Moondance is the single greatest side 1 of any album ever made. Period.

And it Stoned Me...
Moondance
Crazy Love
Caravan
Into the Mystic

Well, it's obviously not just the harp that separates the two, it's also that AW is much more improvisational in its song structures, and Moondance is much more traditional (gloriously so)...that's an absolutely fantastic argument you make for Moondance, BTW. Whoa Nellie, I'm sweating bullets over here The best I can come up with is Side 1 of Disc 1 of Prince's Sign Of The Times:

Sign Of The Times...
Play In The Sunshine...
Housequake...
The Ballad Of Dorothy Parker...
My next pick, which I know would raise a thousand red flags with "Indefensible!" written on them in capital letters, would be Radiohead's Kid A - but I really do consider that to be a perfect first half of an LP as well... (Of course, if you're wanting to encompass ALL music, I would have no problem arguing for Miles Davis' Kind of Blue, or Stan Getz & Charlie Byrd's Jazz Samba, but I think we understand what kind of music we're talking about here )

Here are my favorite albums of the year thus far:

1. Squarepusher, Ultravisitor
2. Solex, The Laughing Stock Of Indie Rock (Arena Rock)
3. Aya, Strange Flower (Naked Music)
4. Nick Cave & The Bad Seeds - Abattoir Blues/Lyre Of Orpheus
5. U2, HTDAAB
6. Martina Topley-Bird - Quixotic
7. Camper Van Beethoven - New Roman Times
8. Tom Waits - Real Gone
9. Beastie Boys - To The 5 Boroughs10. Yuka Honda - Eucademix

 

[UnforgettableLemon]

9. Beastie Boys - To The 5 Boroughs

Yes

This is a good album

And about Astral Weeks, I know there's more to it than just the harp. I'm just lazy and tired of typing. I prefer Moondance by miles, though.

 

[Rastat]

dmesq, Unforgettable Lemon... I'm enjoying immensely your conversation...

 

[Lancemc]

BTW, have you heard the new Nick Cave & Bad Seeds double album, Abattoir Blues/The Lyre of Orpheus yet? There are some absolutely amazing songs there - "Breathless" is my favorite song of the year, it's like Van Morrison back on 'Astral Weeks' and 'Moondance.'

I acctually just bought this the other day and was blown away. I've always been a casual Nick Cave fan (if there is sucha thing) but this album is really something else. Right now my favorites from this are Nature Boy, Let the Bells Ring, Breathless.

And I still think your opinions on the U2 songs are shite

Lance.

 

[dmesq]

I acctually just bought this the other day and was blown away. I've always been a casual Nick Cave fan (if there is sucha thing) but this album is really something else. Right now my favorites from this are Nature Boy, Let the Bells Ring, Breathless.

And I still think your opinions on the U2 songs are shite

Lance.

Breathless is such a great song, and Nature Boy is too. Check out Spell, Abattoir Blues and O Children while you're at it. Amazing stuff. I really thought his previous Nocturama albumwas completely underrated as well, if you hadn't heard that one yet. Here's a great little Nick Cave compilation for you:

Breathless (Lyre of Orpheus)
Nature Boy (Abattoir Blues
Spell (Lyre Of Orpheus)
Abattoir Blues (Abattoir Blues)
Are You The One I've Been Waiting For? (The Boatman's Call)
He Wants You (Nocturama)
Into My Arms (The Boatman's Call)
Love Letter (No More Shall We Part)
Babe, You Turn Me On (Lyre Of Orpheus)
The Ship Song (The Good Son)
O Children (Lyre Of Orpheus)


Lance, by all means please feel free to hang onto your one-dimensional generic quasi-INXS lite rock by U2 (Ultraviolet, for those who are just tuning in), and I'll stick with my super-soulful Johnny Cash turned reggae cover version of theirs. I wouldn't want it any other way.

 

[UnforgettableLemon]

Breathless is such a great song, and Nature Boy is too. Check out Spell, Abattoir Blues and O Children while you're at it. Amazing stuff. I really thought his previous Nocturama albumwas completely underrated as well, if you hadn't heard that one yet. Here's a great little Nick Cave compilation for you:

Breathless (Lyre of Orpheus)
Nature Boy (Abattoir Blues
Spell (Lyre Of Orpheus)
Abattoir Blues (Abattoir Blues)
Are You The One I've Been Waiting For? (The Boatman's Call)
He Wants You (Nocturama)
Into My Arms (The Boatman's Call)
Love Letter (No More Shall We Part)
Babe, You Turn Me On (Lyre Of Orpheus)
The Ship Song (The Good Son)
O Children (Lyre Of Orpheus)

Ok, where are "Henry Lee, "Where the Wild Roses Grow," "The Mercy Seat," and "Red Right Hand"?

Oh, and "Straight to You"?

And his cover of "Let it Be"

 

[The_acrobat]

People, please. This forum has turned into a war zone. I agree with the people who think DTYGTT is a rather boring cover. Pop Muzik worked fine for the opening music of the concert, but I sure as hell have never listened to the version I have on the LNOE single. I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Achtung Baby is quite possibly the most perfect album ever. It takes the listener to so many different places. Every song on that album is just as important as the rest. "The First Time" is a mood piece, not really created to impress people with the musicianship behind it. I think every U2 album needs every song on them. They all form together to create a rollercoaster ride of feelings and moments. Even "Miami" feels right on Pop. You gotta spend more time with the entire album, people. I personally haven't heard anything besides Vertigo and AYGWF for the new material, so I can't comment on HTDAAB. I will say that you can't just take it for what it is..... you have to connect with the album personally, and make it yours.

 

[UnforgettableLemon]

Actually, once we started discussing non-u2 music, things became rather peaceful.