Star Wars storyline and plot discussion on new and old trilogy conflicts

[beegee]

seriously.

she had pants on the entire time.

they were those tight pants that are sometimes called "leggings"

if you want to come up with discrepancies, please...come up with something good. i mean come on, another actor playing a part? i think that's stretching it a bit.

as far as leia remembering her mother, i think (and it was mentioned by someone else in the other thread as well) that leia simply sensed padme through the force. leia was actually alive for several moments before her mother died. padme was also crying while she was giving birth, and while she was dying, maybe that's how leia sensed that she was sad. who knows. some of us star wars geeks also like to assume that leia was simply sensing things from inside the womb.

(lol, sometimes i can't believe i actually say these things...)

and to answer your question, no, these barely perceptible flaws in the storyline don't "bother me." there have been thirty years in between the original films and the prequels. and these few things are the only discrepancies we can come up with? lol, i think that's pretty good. and considering how unbelievably humongous this project was, i think lucas has done a hell of a job.

except with jar jar binks, of course

[WinnieThePoo]

i think leia spoke about senator's wife ( Beil Organa ?? ) , she was adopted by them

[AvsGirl41]

But why wouldn't Luke remember? He was stronger in the Force than Leia was, or so they've hinted. And Luke is the baby Obi-Wan is holding near her face, so really he should be the one with memories of her crying...

And while she *could* be taking about Mrs. Organa, what would be the point of the scene...after all, when Luke reveals that he's her brother, she says "I know--somehow, I've always known."
So why would she be talking about her adopted mother? Of course, relationships (love, family) are regrettably not Lucas' storng point.

It's just another one of those "I thought I could train him as well as Yoda trained me" type lines that Lucas forgets he ever wrote, before he realized he'd make up a character named Qui-Jon Ginn.
Yoda trains all of the Jedi, so that's not such a big deal, but Qui-Jon seemed to exert more personal influence and seems like the kind of mentor you'd remember to mention to your own student.

A "glitch" someone pointed out to me is that if Qui-Jon was the first Jedi to return as a ghost, presumably teaching it to Yoda and Obi-Wan, who taught Anakin? But that doesn't bother me like the Leia one does, because they could have told Anakin once he showed up on the Other Side.

[beegee]

she's not talking about bail organa's wife. luke specifically asks leia if she remembers her "real mother." i'm pretty convinced that she's talking about padme. besides, she would clearly have memories of bail organa's wife; the woman raised her.

why does leia remember padme and luke doesn't? lol, i don't know. maybe leia's jedi senses in that aspect are more developed than luke's at that point. maybe it's because they're both chicks. female intuition and all of that. in other words, i have no idea and am now making it up as i go along.

[knox]

Originally posted by bonosgirl84
why does leia remember padme and luke doesn't? lol, i don't know. maybe leia's jedi senses in that aspect are more developed than luke's at that point. maybe it's because they're both chicks. female intuition and all of that. in other words, i have no idea and am now making it up as i go along.

I think the implication in that scene is that their mother was alive for the first few years of Leia's life.

Anyway, besides that mind numbing disconnect between the events of the prequels and those of the original trilogy, here are some others I noticed:
[*]In A New Hope, Kenobi refers to the Jedi purges by saying that Vader hunted down the Jedi. In Revenge Of The Sith, though, we instead see the Jedi being all killed simultaneously by clone troopers (which begs the question, how do these guys go down so fast; are they Jedi or are't they?). This can be explained, however, by having a large number of Jedi that aren't on the front lines be considered to have survived all across the galaxy -- again, this is not actually indicated.
[*]At the end of Revenge Of The Sith, roughly 20 years before A New Hope, we see the beginning of the construction of the Death Star, which is presumably a 20 year venture. However, a larger Death Star is halfway completed after the ONE YEAR between The Empire Strikes Back and Return Of The Jedi. This is somewhat confusing. This could also be explained by saying that the Death Star at the end of Revenge Of The Sith is a prototype, or that the bulk of construction of the first Death Star was actually scientific research.
[*]By the way, am I supposed to buy that the Clone Troopers become the Stormtroopers when a) they suddenly stop sounding like clones; and b) their ability to successfully operate their firearms suddenly drops so low that they would be more successful if they armed themselves with safety pins?
[*]How is Darth Vader able to sense Kenobi on the Death Star, yet is seemingly unable to do the same on that volcanic planet? Is he really that far away? Of course, the question of Darth Vader's ability to sense things that should be obvious has been questioned since 1980 and 1983 (Luke the son and Leia the daughter, respectively).
[*]Anyone figure out yet why Owen Lars hates Obi-Wan Kenobi so much? It was one thing when we asumed that Anakin Skywalker and Owen actually knew each other for a significant period of time, but as they obviously did not, I find this somewhat mystifying.
[*]As hard to believe the duel was between Kenobi and Vader in A New Hope was before, how can I honestly believe it after having seen the same two duel in Revenge Of The Sith?
[*]How in the world does Palpatine's lighting so terribly disfigure himself in Revenge Of The Sith, while Luke walks away unscathed in Return Of The Jedi?

I'm sure there are a few more I will remember later...

All this said, Lucas did a remarkable job linking the two trilogies both thematically and factually, so thumbs up to that!

[Anthony]

Hrm, I think I can provide my two cents.

[*]In A New Hope, Kenobi refers to the Jedi purges by saying that Vader hunted down the Jedi. In Revenge Of The Sith, though, we instead see the Jedi being all killed simultaneously by clone troopers (which begs the question, how do these guys go down so fast; are they Jedi or are't they?). This can be explained, however, by having a large number of Jedi that aren't on the front lines be considered to have survived all across the galaxy -- again, this is not actually indicated.

Well, Jedi or not - they were all taken by surprise and were clearly outnumbered, you can't really do much when the numbers are totally against and you're surprised, though Yoda was the only one who had any idea, plus he had the 'good relations with the Wookies' and the fact that he's tiny help him. Either way, Vader must have killed some Jedi in the temple along with the Younglings (someone must have been watching over them), and I think its implied that there are a few more Jedi left to purge.

[*]At the end of Revenge Of The Sith, roughly 20 years before A New Hope, we see the beginning of the construction of the Death Star, which is presumably a 20 year venture. However, a larger Death Star is halfway completed after the ONE YEAR between The Empire Strikes Back and Return Of The Jedi.

Well, in Return of the Jedi the commander 'does' tell Vader that the Emperor is 'demanding the impossible' and that he 'needs more men'- now we know just how impossible it is, considering that the first one took 18 years to build. Even then, the Death Star is far from finished and still pretty rough looking. I don't know, I don't think thats farfetched.

[*]By the way, am I supposed to buy that the Clone Troopers become the Stormtroopers when a) they suddenly stop sounding like clones; and b) their ability to successfully operate their firearms suddenly drops so low that they would be more successful if they armed themselves with safety pins?

Maybe they cloned other people, other than Jango Fett. Don't forget, the original was killed in Attack of the Clones, and, sooner or later over the course of two decades they would have run out of clones and would need others - or maybe they just gave up on clones altogether, though, as you said, they should have stuck with them, considering their aim in the original trilogy.

[*]How is Darth Vader able to sense Kenobi on the Death Star, yet is seemingly unable to do the same on that volcanic planet? Is he really that far away? Of course, the question of Darth Vader's ability to sense things that should be obvious has been questioned since 1980 and 1983 (Luke the son and Leia the daughter, respectively).

As some have already stated, the ability to sense really does depend on the force and your ability at the time. i.e. - when the dark side of the force is powerful only the dark side can be tapped into, and other force users can't use the force as effectively - hence the lack of the Jedi's ability to even sense that the dark side was right under their very noses in the prequel trilogy. It could be argued that on Mustarfar, Vader's power with the dark side had not grown enough in order for him to sense everything - he had just turned from the 'light side' of the Force and was 'just' starting using his powers. Remember the Emperor saying that 'go to Mustarfar and kill the Viceroy, only then will you be powerful enough with the dark side'. Whehter he's lying or now, it is clear that Vader still has to continue growing with the dark side, and that takes time. On Mustarfar, the force is quite clearly with Obi-Wan (he wins) and he does, indeed, have the higher ground - Vader's abilities are less than his, in this moment.

[*]Anyone figure out yet why Owen Lars hates Obi-Wan Kenobi so much? It was one thing when we asumed that Anakin Skywalker and Owen actually knew each other for a significant period of time, but as they obviously did not, I find this somewhat mystifying.

I'm just reading the screenplay now and I don't really see Owen Lars hating Obi-Wan, though he probably is prejudiced against the Jedi, equating them with the failure of the Republic etc. Plus, he's on Tatooine, so what does he know? I find it curious that at the end of 'Revenge', its only Beru who greets Obi-Wan and Owen stands away. This distance could be interpreted as some resentment. Either way, his behaviour in 'A New Hope' seems to denote a very fatherly concern; being a Jedi did your father no favours and I don't want you running off becoming one.

[*]As hard to believe the duel was between Kenobi and Vader in A New Hope was before, how can I honestly believe it after having seen the same two duel in Revenge Of The Sith?

Kenobi's powers were, after all, weak during that one. Plus, Kenobi had a plan of what to do, anyway - he wanted to sacrifice himself, which explains why his moves are more defensive (i.e. stalling until Luke gets there) rather than oofensive. Also, by then Vader is more powerful with the dark side and hence more powerful in general, and was really just taunting Obi-Wan. Incidentally, people can say all they want about the Prequel fight sequences and how splendid they are (they are), for me, no fight is as cool as the one between Luke and Vader in 'Jedi'.

[*]How in the world does Palpatine's lighting so terribly disfigure himself in Revenge Of The Sith, while Luke walks away unscathed in Return Of The Jedi?

Thats a good one. I think the difference could be that in Jedi he's frying Luke at a distance and not necessarily aiming at his face, while in Sith his lightning is engulfing his face entirely as Windu's lightsabre is pretty much right next to him. Also, I think its a combination of things; its the lightning but its also the fact that his control of the dark side is becoming almost too great for him to contain, and it is ravaging his body. This is not entirely unsubstantiated, notice how his voice is given this terrifying bass and ghastly animal sounds immediately after frying Mace Windu - that is the sound of his body being totally consumed by the dark side; he is at the height of his powers here, and his body is paying the price for it.

Ant.

[bsp77]

Originally posted by Anthony

Maybe they cloned other people, other than Jango Fett. Don't forget, the original was killed in Attack of the Clones, and, sooner or later over the course of two decades they would have run out of clones and would need others - or maybe they just gave up on clones altogether, though, as you said, they should have stuck with them, considering their aim in the original trilogy.

Exactly right, Lucas confirmed that they had to use a mixture of clones (some not from the original source) and that they had to start drafting as well. Not mentioned in the movies anywhere but Lucas said this in an interview.

[U2Kitten]

The Palpatine = Anakin's Dad theory is good speculation (I like that! ) But if he had the power to create babies with the force, why wouldn't he have done that over and over and had many many powerful, force-filled children he could manipulate to the dark side? Wouldn't that have been better than making all those clones of Bobba Fett's Dad?

[U2Kitten]

Very interesting, Avsgirl and Anthony! Good ones!

I saw this on another message board, what do you guys think of this:

Was the prophecy correct? It said that Anakin was the chosen one who would defeat the Sith and bring balance to the force. But he turned to the dark side and joined the Sith, so how could this be? Wasn't it really Luke who was the chosen one? But hold on- who killed Palpatine? Vader! (Anakin) So maybe, from a certain point of view it was correct after all!

Was this the plan of Yoda and Obi Wan, to get Luke to face him and turn him back so he could defeat Palpatine, because they knew it was he who must? Is this why they originally didn't want Luke to know it was his father because then he wouldn't want to face him? Did they want him to do this, or kill Vader? What do you think?

[mdw3935]

Originally posted by U2Kitten
Very interesting, Avsgirl and Anthony! Good ones!

I saw this on another message board, what do you guys think of this:

Was the prophecy correct? It said that Anakin was the chosen one who would defeat the Sith and bring balance to the force. But he turned to the dark side and joined the Sith, so how could this be? Wasn't it really Luke who was the chosen one? But hold on- who killed Palpatine? Vader! (Anakin) So maybe, from a certain point of view it was correct after all!

That is a good one also U2 kitten. I didn't even think about that one. Now that I am, I think you might be right that Anakin was the chosen on after all. It would just take several years for it to come true.

One thing is for sure is that I'm enjoying reading everyone's different take on this saga.

[bono_man2002]

I have to say, theses star wars threads make for good reading at 1:11AM, as somone who can't sleep

[nbcrusader]

Originally posted by U2Kitten
Was the prophecy correct? It said that Anakin was the chosen one who would defeat the Sith and bring balance to the force. But he turned to the dark side and joined the Sith, so how could this be? Wasn't it really Luke who was the chosen one? But hold on- who killed Palpatine? Vader! (Anakin) So maybe, from a certain point of view it was correct after all!

The specific prophecy is never revealed, only a brief summary (which Yoda suggests may have been misinterpreted).

[U2Kitten]

Originally posted by nbcrusader


The specific prophecy is never revealed, only a brief summary (which Yoda suggests may have been misinterpreted).

But did Anakin not:

defeat the Sith
bring balance to the force
save the universe (and die?)

So he was the chosen one! Or do you think it was Luke?

[U2Kitten]

Originally posted by mdw3935


That is a good one also U2 kitten. I didn't even think about that one. Now that I am, I think you might be right that Anakin was the chosen on after all. It would just take several years for it to come true.

Thanks!

One thing is for sure is that I'm enjoying reading everyone's different take on this saga.

Me too!

[knox]

Originally posted by U2Kitten
Was this the plan of Yoda and Obi Wan, to get Luke to face him and turn him back so he could defeat Palpatine, because they knew it was he who must? Is this why they originally didn't want Luke to know it was his father because then he wouldn't want to face him? Did they want him to do this, or kill Vader? What do you think?

I think that Kenobi and Yoda basically have given up on Anakin/Vader, and it's Luke who brings them back. It's abundantly clear that the "old Jedi" have no clue how to handle Anakain, anyway *cough Mace Windu cough*, so it's not surprising that at least Yoda still doesn't have hope in him. Kenobi's lack of hope makes more sense (which it never had before I say Episode III), because of the way Vader acted before, during and after their duel.

[AvsGirl41]

Originally posted by knox
[*]How in the world does Palpatine's lighting so terribly disfigure himself in Revenge Of The Sith, while Luke walks away unscathed in Return Of The Jedi?

Because Palpatine is summoning/using the Force lightning. Yoda wasn't disfigured either. Neither was Mace Windu or Darth Vader (when he gets zapped in Jedi). Anthony is right, it's having to control that power that disfigures the Emperor.

I do wonder why Force lightning doesn't leave any scars on the person being fried, but maybe it works from the inside out.

[U2MaNaIcWeIdO]

Originally posted by AvsGirl41


Because Palpatine is summoning/using the Force lightning. Yoda wasn't disfigured either. Neither was Mace Windu or Darth Vader (when he gets zapped in Jedi). Anthony is right, it's having to control that power that disfigures the Emperor.

I do wonder why Force lightning doesn't leave any scars on the person being fried, but maybe it works from the inside out.

Yea.....but you got to remember that Vadar is metal/human hybrid.....so that may be part of the reason why he didn't looked fried in Jedi.


I dunno about Luke or Windu....you may be right on that part.

[Anthony]

Anthony is right, it's having to control that power that disfigures the Emperor.

You know, what I found distinctly disturbing (and cool, in a sick kind of way), was that I don't think the Emperor even wants to control the power, he wants to immerse in it with abandon even if it means disfiguring himself in the process 'POWER! UNLIMITED POWER!'). He hardly looks in pain, he looks like he's exhausted from the rush of it all, in that scene.

U2Kitten you raise a really cool point; I've always believed that Anakin was the chosen one. I remember someone crying out at the end of Phantom Menace 'so it was all Qui-Gon's fault!', in reference to his insistance of training Anakin. Well, yes and no. In the end, he was right - he 'did' bring balance to the force, just not in the way the Jedi thought (this is where the misinterpretation of the prophecy could be related to). I don't think that the series is insipid enough to say that it was 'Luke' (whom I've always hated, by the way) who brought balance to the force 'through his love for his father'. My, how insanely cheese would 'that' be.

No, it was Anakin. He was the Chosen one. However, I think Yoda and Obi-Wan's plan was less nuanced than that - they clearly believed that Vader could never be turned and wanted Luke to kill both the Emperor and Vader (rather ambitious, I thought). Incidentally, thats also why Obi-Wan didn't tell Luke who his father was, so he would have less angst when it came to killing daddy (quite cynical for Mr. Kenobi, but he was always the bitter realist).

Ant.

[Anthony]

But if he had the power to create babies with the force, why wouldn't he have done that over and over and had many many powerful, force-filled children he could manipulate to the dark side? Wouldn't that have been better than making all those clones of Bobba Fett's Dad?

Hrm... I think its important to remember why there are only ever two Sith lords. The Sith Rule of Two exists because the blood-stained history of the Sith reveals how the Sith have a propensity to self-destruct, as in, they stab each other in the back. Even now, its the common practice; it shouldn't have come as a surprise to Darth Plagueis when Darth Sidious killed him, had it not been for the fact he was asleep. So, had the Emperor had loads of unstable, power-hungry Vaders running around, he would have been in trouble.


Ant.

[trojanchick99]

Late to the discussion. Regarding Padme... I think that Lucas may have changed his mind on this. I read where Lucas had shot a storyline where Padme formed the Rebel Alliance. This was cut from the film. After seeing the end, I think he changed the death of Padme for reasons of shortening the film.