Roadmap to HELL - One man caught on a barbed wire fence ....

[popshopper]

Originally Posted by Strongbow

I'll ask the questions again since you failed to DIRECTLY answer them:

So your saying that Israel has no right to intercept ships that could be carrying weapons to Gaza that will be used to kill Israely citizens?

So, what can Israel do to defend itself from the weapons being smuggled into Gaza from Iran and other places?

What precisely would you do if you were in charge of protecting Israel and its citizens from the harm this smuggled material is causing? What would you direct the IDF to do, TODAY, given the situation?

I'll say it again. Israel has no legal right to stop ships in international water, as it's 'blockade' can only be legal in the event of an International Armed Conflict with Gaza. It's really that simple. I don't believe it has a moral right to collectively punish the Gazan's by banning:

sage
cardamom
cumin
coriander
ginger
jam
halva
vinegar
nutmeg
chocolate
fruit preserves
seeds and nuts
biscuits and sweets
potato chips
gas for soft drinks
dried fruit
fresh meat
plaster
tar
wood for construction
cement
iron
glucose
industrial salt
plastic/glass/metal containers
industrial margarine
tarpaulin sheets for huts
fabric (for clothing)
flavor and smell enhancers
fishing rods
various fishing nets
buoys
ropes for fishing
nylon nets for greenhouses
hatcheries and spare parts for hatcheries
spare parts for tractors
dairies for cowsheds
irrigation pipe systems
ropes to tie greenhouses
planters for saplings
heaters for chicken farms
musical instruments
size A4 paper
writing implements
notebooks
newspapers
toys
razors
sewing machines and spare parts
heaters
horses
donkeys
goats
cattle
chicks

Almost none of these items offer any threat to Israel. So why ban them if not to collectively punish the Gazans?

Israel is under absolutely no real material threat from Hamas, the possible damage they could render on Israel is minuscule. Israel's actions are disproportionate to the threat they face from the Quassam rockets. The IDF are one of the best equipped standing armies in the world and the continued existence of Israel is under no threat from any weapons smuggled in from Iran. If Israel wants to improve its security situation the only long term way is to actually try negotiating in with Hamas. Both sides have unacceptable positions enshrined in their political parties charters. Punishing the Gazan's into voting out Hamas isn't the way to do it because simply all they are doing is fostering a bunker mentality.

If I were Israel I'd let the blockade down on the proviso of talks starting, back off from air raid for a month or so and see what happens. If the rocket attacks diminish (and they are already greatly diminished from 2008 levels). Don't forget that the previous ceasefire in 2008 almost completely stopped (rocket fire decreased 98% in the four and a half months between 18 June and 4 November) rocket attacks until Israel breached the ceasefire on the 4th of November by conducting a raid into Gaza. The blockade itself has not managed to get the rocket attacks down to the same level they were during the 2008 ceasefire so raiding ships and killing folk doesn't really seem to be the best approach to Israeli security now does it?

Don't get me wrong there are a number of problems with this approach, one involves both sides showing a bit of trust and two Hamas couldn't control all the other extremists groups in the previous ceasefire (hence why some rockets continued to fire).

Make no mistake if the reports from Turkey are true (that the Turkish Prime Minister is going to be on the next Flotilla, backed by a couple of Turkish destroyers) then the blockade is effectively over. So mister bigshot what should the IDF do next? Glass Gaza?

[Strongbow]

Originally Posted by popshopper

Israel is under absolutely no real material threat from Hamas, the possible damage they could render on Israel is minuscule.

Any weapons or groups that murder the citizens of another country obviously pose a threat to that country.

Israel's actions are disproportionate to the threat they face from the Quassam rockets.

As long as weapons in the hands of Humas continue to murder Israeli citizens, Israel's actions to interdict the smuggling of any such weapons are not at all disportionate.

The IDF are one of the best equipped standing armies in the world and the continued existence of Israel is under no threat from any weapons smuggled in from Iran.

No one has said that the continued existence of Israel is under threat by weapons sent into Gaza, just the lives of Israeli citizens.

If Israel wants to improve its security situation the only long term way is to actually try negotiating in with Hamas.

How do you negotiate with someone who's number 1 goal, who's reason for existence is the total destruction of your country?

Both sides have unacceptable positions enshrined in their political parties charters.

The two are not comparable. Israel has accepted peace plans in the past that would allow gaza to become apart of an independent state. Humas's #1 goal again is to destroy Israel.

Punishing the Gazan's into voting out Hamas isn't the way to do it because simply all they are doing is fostering a bunker mentality.

I agree with that, but its nothing compared to Humas which actively targets and tries to murder innocent Israeli civilians. Its rather obvious which party is showing restraint and being reasonable in terms of resolving the conflict.

If I were Israel I'd let the blockade down on the proviso of talks starting, back off from air raid for a month or so and see what happens. If the rocket attacks diminish (and they are already greatly diminished from 2008 levels). Don't forget that the previous ceasefire in 2008 almost completely stopped (rocket fire decreased 98% in the four and a half months between 18 June and 4 November) rocket attacks until Israel breached the ceasefire on the 4th of November by conducting a raid into Gaza. The blockade itself has not managed to get the rocket attacks down to the same level they were during the 2008 ceasefire so raiding ships and killing folk doesn't really seem to be the best approach to Israeli security now does it?

The interesting thing to note here is that a ceacefire with Humas is not actually the true definition of a ceacefire. Yes, there is a ceacefire, but were comparing the number of rockets coming over DURING the ceacefire to now.

Its also a well known fact that ceacefires are used by organizations like Humas and Hezbollah to re-stock, train, and refit.


Anyways, doing nothing from a military standpoint and just letting any type of weapons flow to what is a terrorist organization that murders your citizens is something that no sensible leader who cares about the security of their country would do. The fact that the so called ceacefire does not actually stop the attacks highlights the futility of dealing with Humas diplomatically.

Make no mistake if the reports from Turkey are true (that the Turkish Prime Minister is going to be on the next Flotilla, backed by a couple of Turkish destroyers) then the blockade is effectively over. So mister bigshot what should the IDF do next? Glass Gaza?

Mister Bigshot?
A foolish move by Turkey if they really care about the lives of people in Gaza and Israel. Preventing Israel from intercepting weapons going into Gaza will mean an increase in the means of Humas to murder Israeli citizens. This will force Israel to engage in other military options that will increase the loss of life for Palestinians living in Gaza.



What would you direct the IDF to do to prevent the murder of Israeli citizens if a new ceacefire did not lead to a significant decrease in the number rockets, or the ceacefire eventually collapsed. Say negotiations or a ceacefire are not possible, as commander of the IDF, what actions would you take to defend Israeli citizens from being murdered by weapons shipped into Gaza?

[financeguy]

Every few years, Israel gets involved in another conflict or atrocity and the predictable chorus of debate ensues. Few conflicts create such argument and division. And it is quite probable that among those sympathetic to the Israeli position will be many Westerners, like myself, who have visited Israel and experienced the kibbutz way of life.

As someone who has visited Israel frequently and who spent a formative six months on a kibbutz at the age of 19, all of this saddens me. For despite the conflict, there is something magical about this tiny state, created by the Jewish immigrants of over 120 countries and built on the beautiful desert of their biblical homeland.

The kibbutzniks are generally peacenik in outlook, although they are also over-represented in the elites of the army and air force. This reflects the high level of education on the kibbutz and its pioneering can-do spirit.

In recent years, I was shocked when I saw on the news that the towns nearest my kibbutz, Bet Shean and Afula, were attacked by gunmen and suicide bombers. In the early 1980s, the thought of such incursions was remote. But there was still a smouldering resentment in the Arab villages.

What a pity the Israelis didn't address all this then, rather than let it build up. When I think of old people on the kibbutz, the pioneers who came from Vienna and Warsaw, I am almost relieved that many of them are not around to see the impasses that have developed.

My love for Israel -- and why I still believe that peace will win in the end - Lifestyle, Frontpage - Independent.ie

[Irvine511]

different thread, same old same old.

someone has to be all right or all wrong. it's the height of immaturity and insecurity.

[AchtungBono]

Dear Friends,

Wow...I haven't been here for a few days and this thread has certainly grown into a very intense and friendly discussion.

Firstly, I really want to express my appreciation to all of you for all of your comments pro and con. It's so great to be able to have a free exchange of ideas on such a volatile issue.

During the day I'll be wading through all the comments and answering any comments addressed to me.

Again, I'm not assuming any official position of spokesperson for the Israeli government, but, as someone who lives here, I do feel that it is my duty as an Israel citizen to give you the truth of what has been going on here so you get the whole story and not just one side.

Have a great day and see you soon.

[AchtungBono]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

i want to quickly say that we are lucky to have people who are actually living in this area of the world posting in this thread.

i look forward to more posts from them and hearing their perspectives and opinions on these extraordinarily complex issues.

Thank you for that Irvine, it means a lot.

I can't tell you how frustrating it is sometimes to know that you're in the right while the world covers its ears and just goes "la la la la" and doesn't want to listen. It's like the old saying: "my mind is made up so don't confuse me with the facts".

And that's what I intend to do here - bring you the FACTS.

[AchtungBono]

Originally Posted by financeguy

I am on the record here of not being a fan of Israeli policies, but when I look at the people who are against the state of Israel (mainly, in my opinion, left wing types, some of questionable views. I am thinking largely of the European left here, a point raised by Irivine in the past, and I think he was onto something) I start to wonder what's going on here. The media portrayal of this incident is a bit suspect. Israel may well be in the wrong, but I resent being told by the European media that I must declare this an outrage because the media have decreed thusly. I have a hard time believing the Israeli military just went on aid relief boats and started killing civilians just for the hell of it.

Thanks Financeguy....As I told Anitram - you and I have had disagreements in the past but I'm very grateful that you're willing to believe that we didn't intentionally go there intent on killing people....which is the truth.

By the way, I salute the peace activists on the "Rachel Corrie" who gave up their ship without resistance. We did exactly what we intended to do with the first flotilla last week - mainly to stop the ships at sea, divert them to Ashdod, check the cargo and then let them convey the humanitarian aid by land to Gaza.

This is the main difference between the peace activists on the "Rachel Corrie" and the terrorist supporters on the "MV Marmara". The activists on the "Rachel Corrie" lowered rope ladders to allow the Israeli commandos to board the ship and they cooperated fully with our navy. Also, the cargo that the "Rachel Corrie" was carrying was purely humanitarian aid - there were no gas masks, guns, baseball bats, or any other weapons like there were on the "Marmara", which clearly proves that the Marmara was on a mission of provocation and confrontation and nothing more.

Incidently, the cargo from the first flotilla hasn't been conveyed to Gaza yet because Hamas won't let it in.....interesting, isn't it?

[popshopper]

Originally Posted by Strongbow

Any weapons or groups that murder the citizens of another country obviously pose a threat to that country.



As long as weapons in the hands of Humas continue to murder Israeli citizens, Israel's actions to interdict the smuggling of any such weapons are not at all disportionate.



No one has said that the continued existence of Israel is under threat by weapons sent into Gaza, just the lives of Israeli citizens.



How do you negotiate with someone who's number 1 goal, who's reason for existence is the total destruction of your country?



The two are not comparable. Israel has accepted peace plans in the past that would allow gaza to become apart of an independent state. Humas's #1 goal again is to destroy Israel.



I agree with that, but its nothing compared to Humas which actively targets and tries to murder innocent Israeli civilians. Its rather obvious which party is showing restraint and being reasonable in terms of resolving the conflict.



The interesting thing to note here is that a ceacefire with Humas is not actually the true definition of a ceacefire. Yes, there is a ceacefire, but were comparing the number of rockets coming over DURING the ceacefire to now.

Its also a well known fact that ceacefires are used by organizations like Humas and Hezbollah to re-stock, train, and refit.


Anyways, doing nothing from a military standpoint and just letting any type of weapons flow to what is a terrorist organization that murders your citizens is something that no sensible leader who cares about the security of their country would do. The fact that the so called ceacefire does not actually stop the attacks highlights the futility of dealing with Humas diplomatically.



Mister Bigshot?
A foolish move by Turkey if they really care about the lives of people in Gaza and Israel. Preventing Israel from intercepting weapons going into Gaza will mean an increase in the means of Humas to murder Israeli citizens. This will force Israel to engage in other military options that will increase the loss of life for Palestinians living in Gaza.



What would you direct the IDF to do to prevent the murder of Israeli citizens if a new ceacefire did not lead to a significant decrease in the number rockets, or the ceacefire eventually collapsed. Say negotiations or a ceacefire are not possible, as commander of the IDF, what actions would you take to defend Israeli citizens from being murdered by weapons shipped into Gaza?

The 2008 ceasefire worked. It actually worked far better than the blockade in stopping the majority of the rocket attacks. It's not just hamas firing these things even the Israeli's have admitted that, Hamas were charged with stopping the rockets during ceasefire, and they largely did.

The entire international community is against the blockade, even the American's who while aren't insisting it stop are continuing are suggesting that it does. It's illegal and it's effects are disproportionate to the threat Israel faces. I have no problem with Israel searching ships in it's own water which it has every right to do, I do have a serious problem with storming boats international waters, finding no contraband but redirecting them anyway, but the list of items they are banning suggests this has as much to do with punishing the Gazans as it does with material security.

It's hardly a long term solution so what do you suggest?

[popshopper]

Originally Posted by AchtungBono

Thanks Financeguy....As I told Anitram - you and I have had disagreements in the past but I'm very grateful that you're willing to believe that we didn't intentionally go there intent on killing people....which is the truth.

By the way, I salute the peace activists on the "Rachel Corrie" who gave up their ship without resistance. We did exactly what we intended to do with the first flotilla last week - mainly to stop the ships at sea, divert them to Ashdod, check the cargo and then let them convey the humanitarian aid by land to Gaza.

This is the main difference between the peace activists on the "Rachel Corrie" and the terrorist supporters on the "MV Marmara". The activists on the "Rachel Corrie" lowered rope ladders to allow the Israeli commandos to board the ship and they cooperated fully with our navy. Also, the cargo that the "Rachel Corrie" was carrying was purely humanitarian aid - there were no gas masks, guns, baseball bats, or any other weapons like there were on the "Marmara", which clearly proves that the Marmara was on a mission of provocation and confrontation and nothing more.

Incidently, the cargo from the first flotilla hasn't been conveyed to Gaza yet because Hamas won't let it in.....interesting, isn't it?

So Israel let all the humanitarian aid through including the items on the banned list such as paper and spices?

Also to a man and woman the survivors of MV Marmara including Tony Blairs sister in law have claimed the ship came under fire before the IDF landed something which no video release has disproved.

As someone who has seen the IDF in action in Gaza (I was there working as a photographer for 6 months in 2003 during which time two UK civilians were murdered by the IDF), I wouldn't be surprised by anything they did. Tom Hurndall died when an IDF sniper shot him in the head for shielding a group of children who were being fired upon by the sniper to move them on. The initial testimony from the IDF was that Tom had a pistol which was a lie. The initial IDF investigation found that they done nothing wrong, it took an appeal by the UK government before the case was re-opened. And while I was visiting Gaza, a couple of weeks before Tom died James Miller, a filmmaker who I knew, got shot and killed by the IDF while holding a white flag. Initally it was claimed that there was a crossfire, however there is an audio tape of the incident were two shots are heard. One shot which miss the journalists, who shouted that they were British journalists and a second which killed James. Again the IDF story changed later on.

[AchtungBono]

Originally Posted by popshopper

So Israel let all the humanitarian aid through including the items on the banned list such as paper and spices?

According to what I've read, Israel is willing to let everything through provided the aid is distributed through international agencies to make sure that Hamas doesn't use the material for hostile use. For instance, cement should be used to rebuild schools and homes and not for building bunkers for their leadership to hide in...etc.

Also to a man and woman the survivors of MV Marmara including Tony Blairs sister in law have claimed the ship came under fire before the IDF landed something which no video release has disproved.

That is simply not true - please go to the official IDF channel on youtube and you'll see all the unedited raw footage of the takeoever. You will see exactly who attacked whom first and when the IDF had to open fire.

As someone who has seen the IDF in action in Gaza (I was there working as a photographer for 6 months in 2003 during which time two UK civilians were murdered by the IDF), I wouldn't be surprised by anything they did. Tom Hurndall died when an IDF sniper shot him in the head for shielding a group of children who were being fired upon by the sniper to move them on. The initial testimony from the IDF was that Tom had a pistol which was a lie. The initial IDF investigation found that they done nothing wrong, it took an appeal by the UK government before the case was re-opened. And while I was visiting Gaza, a couple of weeks before Tom died James Miller, a filmmaker who I knew, got shot and killed by the IDF while holding a white flag. Initally it was claimed that there was a crossfire, however there is an audio tape of the incident were two shots are heard. One shot which miss the journalists, who shouted that they were British journalists and a second which killed James. Again the IDF story changed later on.

For the record, I condemm and mourn the senseless loss of life of innocent civillians on both sides, but you must understand that one of the worst aspects of the Gaza situation is the fact that Hamas and Islamic Jihad wage their war against us from heavily populated areas - as you know doubt witnessed as you said you were there. Therefore, as horrible as it is, there will be innocent civillians (including your colleagues) who may be hurt or worse.

As for the sniper incident - It is unfathomable that the IDF soldiers were firing purposely on a group of children "to move them along". I wasn't there so I don't know, but I can only assume that they were engaged in a shootout and Mr. Hurndall was tragically and mistakenly killed. The IDF is not afraid to investigate itself, as we've done a few times in the past, and I can assure you that in this day and age of instant reporting and documenting NOTHING can be covered up and the truth will always come out.

Another aspect of the Gaza fighting is the fact that Hamas and the other terrorist organizations use ambulances to convey weapons and also use U.N. buildings and schools as launching pads - which I'm sure you saw also.
Therefore, it is nearly impossible to avoid civillian casualties even though we try - because, unlike the terrorists, we do NOT target civillians on purpose.

Did you witness the "white flag" incident yourself? Were the British Journalists wearing "Press" vests like I see on TV? Were they clearly identified as journalists? Can you post any links to this incident so I can read about them?

I'm very sorry for the loss of Tom and James - may they rest in peace.

[AchtungBono]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

there seem to be several posters who are under the impression that the single reason for the blockade of Gaza is to prevent Hamas from shooting rockets at Israel. while this is certainly a component of the blockade, this is far from the sole reason, or even the biggest reason. the main reason for the blockade, as has been stated, is the collective punishment of the people of Gaza -- some 40% of whom are under the age of 15 -- for electing Hamas. if this were not the reason, why, then, does Israel block exports from Gaza? why the ban on, you know, cilantro?

I'm sorry Irvine but I must disagree with you on this point.
First of all, Hamas was "elected" to power mainly because they killed anyone else who dared run against them and the Palestinian people didn't have a free choice of who to vote for. When you're standing in a polling station with a gun at your head (either literally or figurativly(sp?) it certainly can't be called a free election.
Also, if they were elected freely, then why did they feel the need to wage war against their own muslim brothers from the Fatah - including mass executions and throwing them off rooftops - until the entire area came under their exclusive control?

Israel's naval blockade and border restrictions didn't happen out of the blue, and it certainly wasn't meant as a "collective punishment" against the Palestinians as a whole. However, after Hamas seized power, we realized that our arch enemy, an enemy that has sworn to destroy us, controls an area which puts itself in a position to directly threaten us (as they've shown over and over again by their shelling of Sderot and other cities - including mine).

I assure you that Israel didn't wake up one morning and decide to "imprison" 1.5 million people just because we didn't like who they elected - that's proposterous. On the other hand, we couldn't ignore the fact that a bloodthirsty terrorist group is sitting on our southern border just waiting for the chance to wipe us out by suicide bombers and rockets smuggled in from Iran via the Rafah border crossing and by sea. Hence the naval blockade and the assistance from the Egyptians in monitoring and destroying the tunnels in the Sinai (as I mentioned in an earlier post). The blockade and border restrictions, as well as the construction of the security fence, is our only means of ensuring that Hamas is cut off from the materials they need to build the weapons used against us.

As for the legality of the naval blockade - we are at war with Hamas who controls Gaza, therefore Gaza is considered an area of hostility which gives Israel the right under international law to impose a naval blockade to prevent the passage of ships carrying weapons or materials without being checked first by Israel - and it also gives us the right under international law to stop the ships in international waters. We clearly didn't violate the sovereinty of any nation and we did exactly what we were entitled to.

i think most people find this intellectually and morally unacceptable as any sort of political strategy, not to mention that it's simply a bad strategy for Israel's security. it may well be true that these flotillas were designed to provoke precisely the incident we have just seen unfold -- "what luck!" they probably exclaimed in Iran, and in Egypt, "we're so happy to see the Palestinians suffer, and that's why we impose our own embargo, and now Israel looks bad when we're just as bad!" -- and the Israelis gave them just what they asked for.

Irvine - we can't base our action or non-action on how good it will look in the newspapers or on TV. We were well aware that the eyes of everyone were upon this flotilla but we couldn't take that into account because this is our lives we're talking about not a photo-op. It is because we were aware of the massive coverage that the IDF took their own camera crew to film exactly what happened in order to refute any arguments that we stormed the ship and opened fire indiscriminately - and this is clearly shown in all of the footage.
Regardless of what the world thought, we had absolutely no choice but to stop the ships from violating our legally-imposed blockade. You've probably seen the clips of the soldiers calling to the captain to turn around and getting a negative response....a response which prompted the takeover.

and, for the US, it reduces our credibility when justifying things like drone attacks as being in the best interests of the world when it appears as if we're supporting a policy that actively seeks to punish 1.5m Muslims living in a shattered strip of land.

The fact that 1.5 million people are living in a shattered strip of land is not disputed. Hamas has made their lives a living hell - using them as human shields and preventing them from receiving the aid that they so desparately need (as proven by their refusal to let the aid from the first flotilla into Gaza).

The only ones punishing the Palestinians are Hamas and Islamic Jihad who put their war against us before the suffering of their own people.

I can also assure you that as soon as Hamas is routed from Gaza (and the world), and a true Palestinian leadership arises that really and truly wants peace with Israel, only then will the Palestinians truly be free to establish their own state with us as friendly and cooperative neighbors.

But I'm afraid that until that day comes, or until Hamas and Islamic Jihad put down their arms, then the blockade must stand - our survival depends on it.

[Strongbow]

Originally Posted by popshopper

The 2008 ceasefire worked. It actually worked far better than the blockade in stopping the majority of the rocket attacks. It's not just hamas firing these things even the Israeli's have admitted that, Hamas were charged with stopping the rockets during ceasefire, and they largely did.

The entire international community is against the blockade, even the American's who while aren't insisting it stop are continuing are suggesting that it does. It's illegal and it's effects are disproportionate to the threat Israel faces. I have no problem with Israel searching ships in it's own water which it has every right to do, I do have a serious problem with storming boats international waters, finding no contraband but redirecting them anyway, but the list of items they are banning suggests this has as much to do with punishing the Gazans as it does with material security.

It's hardly a long term solution so what do you suggest?

Again, the chart just shows that the ceasefire failed. A ceasefire means no one is firing anything at all. Of course, if Humas literally stops attacking Israel, that will be more effective then a continuation of the fighting in which Israel only options for defending itself is to try to stop the flow of weapons into Gaza or raid Gaza itself.

Why does Humas fire any rockets at all into Israel? Why are they dedicated to the destruction of Israel?


I suggest Israel continue to what is necessary on a daily basis to defend the citizens of their country. That involves intercepting weapons from getting into Gaza that are used to murder Israeli citizens. Israeli citizens are being murdered by these weapons that are being sent into Gaza. As apart of Israel's right to defend itself and its citizens they certainly have the right to intercept any ship or group headed for Gaza in order to prevent weapons from getting in that are killing Israeli citizens.



What would you direct the IDF to do to prevent the murder of Israeli citizens if a new ceacefire did not lead to a significant decrease in the number rockets, or the ceacefire eventually collapsed. Say negotiations or a ceacefire are not possible, as commander of the IDF, what actions would you take to defend Israeli citizens from being murdered by weapons shipped into Gaza?

[Strongbow]

Originally Posted by popshopper

So Israel let all the humanitarian aid through including the items on the banned list such as paper and spices?

Also to a man and woman the survivors of MV Marmara including Tony Blairs sister in law have claimed the ship came under fire before the IDF landed something which no video release has disproved.

As someone who has seen the IDF in action in Gaza (I was there working as a photographer for 6 months in 2003 during which time two UK civilians were murdered by the IDF), I wouldn't be surprised by anything they did. Tom Hurndall died when an IDF sniper shot him in the head for shielding a group of children who were being fired upon by the sniper to move them on. The initial testimony from the IDF was that Tom had a pistol which was a lie. The initial IDF investigation found that they done nothing wrong, it took an appeal by the UK government before the case was re-opened. And while I was visiting Gaza, a couple of weeks before Tom died James Miller, a filmmaker who I knew, got shot and killed by the IDF while holding a white flag. Initally it was claimed that there was a crossfire, however there is an audio tape of the incident were two shots are heard. One shot which miss the journalists, who shouted that they were British journalists and a second which killed James. Again the IDF story changed later on.

If the IDF were anything like the terrorist organization Humas, everyone in the Gaza strip would have been slaughtered decades ago. Think about it!

[dazzlingamy]

I can see why this will never end from reading Achtung Bono's posts. Although very nicely written, they spend the whole time pointing the finger at Hamas and blaming them for all the problems Israel has and all the deaths on both sides must lay at the feet of the terrorists because if their was a nice palestnian in power both sides would be best of friends and nothing would be wrong. However do you not think Palestine is thinking the same thing? If Israel stopped being such bastards and moving into their land and killing dozens of innocent people including children to get at one 'suspected' terrorist. You claim it is all in retaliation for whatever Hamas and the terrorists throw at you but like some other posters said Israel defends 10x more then what is threatened at them and then claim its only trying to defend itself. Its ludicrious!

To be honest we all know what Palestine wants, not what just Hamas or the terrorists (who in any other country would be called an army) want is for Israel to not exist, for Israelis to move away and for them to get back the land stolen from them. However as this is not going to happen, and as Israel seems to hit back at every small little thing nothing will change.

But I'm afraid that until that day comes, or until Hamas and Islamic Jihad put down their arms, then the blockade must stand - our survival depends on it.

what about you putting down your arms? Does Palestine not have their survival on their minds as well? Do you not see how both sides think the same thing of the other?

[Strongbow]

Originally Posted by dazzlingamy

I can see why this will never end from reading Achtung Bono's posts. Although very nicely written, they spend the whole time pointing the finger at Hamas and blaming them for all the problems Israel has and all the deaths on both sides must lay at the feet of the terrorists because if their was a nice palestnian in power both sides would be best of friends and nothing would be wrong. However do you not think Palestine is thinking the same thing? If Israel stopped being such bastards and moving into their land and killing dozens of innocent people including children to get at one 'suspected' terrorist. You claim it is all in retaliation for whatever Hamas and the terrorists throw at you but like some other posters said Israel defends 10x more then what is threatened at them and then claim its only trying to defend itself. Its ludicrious!

To be honest we all know what Palestine wants, not what just Hamas or the terrorists (who in any other country would be called an army) want is for Israel to not exist, for Israelis to move away and for them to get back the land stolen from them. However as this is not going to happen, and as Israel seems to hit back at every small little thing nothing will change.



what about you putting down your arms? Does Palestine not have their survival on their minds as well? Do you not see how both sides think the same thing of the other?

Israel has shown overwhelming restraint in this conflict. "Small little thing"? I don't think the murder of Israeli citizens is a "small little thing".

It should be noted that successful interception of smuggled weapons before they get to Gaza saves the lives not only of Israeli citizens, but also of citizens of Gaza.

[popshopper]

Originally Posted by AchtungBono

According to what I've read, Israel is willing to let everything through provided the aid is distributed through international agencies to make sure that Hamas doesn't use the material for hostile use. For instance, cement should be used to rebuild schools and homes and not for building bunkers for their leadership to hide in...etc.



That is simply not true - please go to the official IDF channel on youtube and you'll see all the unedited raw footage of the takeoever. You will see exactly who attacked whom first and when the IDF had to open fire.



For the record, I condemm and mourn the senseless loss of life of innocent civillians on both sides, but you must understand that one of the worst aspects of the Gaza situation is the fact that Hamas and Islamic Jihad wage their war against us from heavily populated areas - as you know doubt witnessed as you said you were there. Therefore, as horrible as it is, there will be innocent civillians (including your colleagues) who may be hurt or worse.

As for the sniper incident - It is unfathomable that the IDF soldiers were firing purposely on a group of children "to move them along". I wasn't there so I don't know, but I can only assume that they were engaged in a shootout and Mr. Hurndall was tragically and mistakenly killed. The IDF is not afraid to investigate itself, as we've done a few times in the past, and I can assure you that in this day and age of instant reporting and documenting NOTHING can be covered up and the truth will always come out.

Another aspect of the Gaza fighting is the fact that Hamas and the other terrorist organizations use ambulances to convey weapons and also use U.N. buildings and schools as launching pads - which I'm sure you saw also.
Therefore, it is nearly impossible to avoid civillian casualties even though we try - because, unlike the terrorists, we do NOT target civillians on purpose.

Did you witness the "white flag" incident yourself? Were the British Journalists wearing "Press" vests like I see on TV? Were they clearly identified as journalists? Can you post any links to this incident so I can read about them?

I'm very sorry for the loss of Tom and James - may they rest in peace.

I've seen the IDF footage. The survivors are claiming to a man that they were shot at and suffered two deaths before the IDF landed on the boat as the IDF footage starts with the IDF absailing it's hardly unedited.

In the case of Hurndall a British corners inquest found very clearly he was murdered. There was no firefight unlike the IDF initially claimed. Tom Hurndall - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The raw footage from James death is here, [James Millers death]. There is no firefight unlike the IDF initially claimed (you being to see a pattern here?), and you can see the white flag and here the journalists identify them as British. Then James is murdered and the firing from a single source continues.

[popshopper]

Originally Posted by Strongbow

Again, the chart just shows that the ceasefire failed. A ceasefire means no one is firing anything at all. Of course, if Humas literally stops attacking Israel, that will be more effective then a continuation of the fighting in which Israel only options for defending itself is to try to stop the flow of weapons into Gaza or raid Gaza itself.

Why does Humas fire any rockets at all into Israel? Why are they dedicated to the destruction of Israel?


I suggest Israel continue to what is necessary on a daily basis to defend the citizens of their country. That involves intercepting weapons from getting into Gaza that are used to murder Israeli citizens. Israeli citizens are being murdered by these weapons that are being sent into Gaza. As apart of Israel's right to defend itself and its citizens they certainly have the right to intercept any ship or group headed for Gaza in order to prevent weapons from getting in that are killing Israeli citizens.



What would you direct the IDF to do to prevent the murder of Israeli citizens if a new ceacefire did not lead to a significant decrease in the number rockets, or the ceacefire eventually collapsed. Say negotiations or a ceacefire are not possible, as commander of the IDF, what actions would you take to defend Israeli citizens from being murdered by weapons shipped into Gaza?

Hamas are not the only group firing rockets at Israel from Gaza. If you knew anything about the situation instead of spouting the same crap over and over again you'd know this. Only between 50%-70% of the rockets fired from Gaza are from Hamas. Hamas, the murdering bastards that they are, make no mistake I'm no fan of Hamas either, actually managed a reasonable job of policing the other extremist groups, not perfect but then again the ceasefire was not perfectly observed from the Israeli side either. The ceasefire was by an large a success until it was broken primarily for Israeli political reasons, there was an election on the way and the incumbents wanted to look tough. The ceasefire ended attacks by Hamas, and was far more effective than an illegal blockade.

I imagine the reason Hamas etc fire rockets into Israel, is that they believe their homeland has been stolen. It's probably that simple. I agree with Israel's right to exist (if a enough people want to form a country, feel free) but I recognise that existence came at a terrible price for the Palestinians. You can argue about historic rights to the land, but the bottom line is before Israeli's returned, people were living on that land, and the Israeli's weren't exactly gentle in moving them off. Irgun weren't exactly all flowers and roses to the Palestinians as Deir Yassin amply states. People forget the existence of Israeli was based largely on the sort of terrorism that the Israeli's condemn Hamas for. Doesn't make any of it right, but it makes it understandable. As with the formation of Israel peace is only going to come from negotiations which neither side has had a stellar record in.

[Bluer White]

CQ Politics | Craig Crawford's Trail Mix - With Regrets (and Ms. Thomas' agent dumps her)

With Regrets

By Craig Crawford | June 6, 2010 2:23 PM | Permalink | Comments (25)

I concur with the following response from my agent to Helen Thomas' lamentable remarks about Israel, and will no longer be working with Helen on our book projects. -- Craig Crawford

"It is with a heavy heart that Nine Speakers, Inc. announces its resignation as the agent for Helen Thomas, Dean of the White House Press Corps. Ms. Thomas has had an esteemed career as a journalist, and she has been a trailblazer for women, helping others in her profession, and beyond. However, in light of recent events, Nine Speakers is no longer able to represent Ms. Thomas, nor can we condone her comments on the Middle East. Nine Speakers will continue to enthusiastically represent all of our other current and future clients." -- Diane Nine

[Moonlit_Angel]

I totally missed this-what did Helen Thomas say?

Angela

[deep]

Something like, Israel has a population of 7.5 million people, 75% are Jewish.

Germany and Poland have a deficit of about 6 million, they can go there.