What if (this view of)God is right?

[Macfistowannabe]

Yes, religion and philosophy can be two different things

This I agree with. I think that they can coexist, but one will take more control of your life than the other. I do however enjoy reading about philosophy and how it can relate to everyday life.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Just curious 80sU2isBest....do you follow your religion without question? Is there any doubt in your mind that perhaps there could be another way than what your parents taught you?

You assume I believe this because of "what my parents taught me"? What a bold assumption. My parents are believers, but I have been a Christian for 25 years. I grew in my faith because I have studied the Word for years and I pray to God and seek his wisdom. A lot of things have been thrown at me, so it's definitely not just a case of "oh my momma taught me this". I have faced the death of my 31 year old brother in 1989, the death of my own son in 1990, and the death of my father in 1993. And there were times when I asked "Why?!" But God has been gracious to me and has always pulled me through and comforted me. To answer your question, I no longer have doubts about whether Christ is who he said he is. He is as real to me as this keyboard with which I type this post.

Why don't you ask the born again Christian son of the late Madelyn Murray O'Hara (avowed athiest) if he got his faith from "what his parents taught him".

 

[80sU2isBest]

C'mon 80sU2.....answer my questions

Patience...I can't type 3 answers at once.

 

[unosdostres14]

It was a bold assumption. I am very sorry for the deaths you have encountered in my life. The point I was trying to make was that don't you ever think that perhaps things aren't the way they seem.

Swami Vivekananda spoke at the World's Parliament of Religions on September 11th, 1893. Here is an excerpt from his speech:

But I think I should tell you a story which would illustrate the cause of this variance. A frog lived in a well. It had lived there for a long time. It was born there and brought up there, and yet was a little, small frog. Of course, the evolutionists were not there then to tell us whether the frog lost its eyes or not, but, for our story's sake, we must take it for granted that it had its eyes, and that it every day cleansed the water of all the worms and bacilli that lived in it with an energy that would do credit to our modern bacteriologists. In this way it went on and became a little sleek and fat. Well, one day another flog that lived in the sea came and fell into the well.

"Where are you from?"

"I am from the sea."

"The sea! How big is that? Is it as big as my well?" and he took a leap from one side of the well to the other.

"My friend," said the frog of the sea, "how do you compare the sea with your little well?"

Then the frog took another leap and asked, "Is your sea so big?"

"What nonsense you speak, to compare the sea with your well!"

"Well, then," said the frog of the well, "nothing can be bigger than my well; there can be nothing bigger than this; this fellow is a liar, so turn him out."




I am honestly curious. Do you believe without question? If so, why is there no other way?

 

[80sU2isBest]

The word "sin" originates from a Hebrew word literally meaning "imperfect." We are all imperfect and we will never be anything but.

Melon, I know meanings, also. The New Testament was written in Greek, and the greek term for sin means a lot more than just a subtle "imperfection". Consult your Lexicon, and you'll see what I mean.

How does "aberration from prescribed law or duty" sound to you.

And you're right - my flesh is imperfect, so in my earthly shell, I am imperfect. My will is imperfect, and often sinful, and my mind is imperfect, and often sinful.

However, the spirit of a reborn person is absolutely perfect. I know you don't believe all the words of the Bible, especially Paul. But I'll say it anyway: Read Romans, Ephesians, and Galatians.

 

[80sU2isBest]

It was a bold assumption. I am very sorry for the deaths you have encountered in my life. The point I was trying to make was that don't you ever think that perhaps things aren't the way they seem.

Swami Vivekananda spoke at the World's Parliament of Religions on September 11th, 1893. Here is an excerpt from his speech:

But I think I should tell you a story which would illustrate the cause of this variance. A frog lived in a well. It had lived there for a long time. It was born there and brought up there, and yet was a little, small frog. Of course, the evolutionists were not there then to tell us whether the frog lost its eyes or not, but, for our story's sake, we must take it for granted that it had its eyes, and that it every day cleansed the water of all the worms and bacilli that lived in it with an energy that would do credit to our modern bacteriologists. In this way it went on and became a little sleek and fat. Well, one day another flog that lived in the sea came and fell into the well.

"Where are you from?"

"I am from the sea."

"The sea! How big is that? Is it as big as my well?" and he took a leap from one side of the well to the other.

"My friend," said the frog of the sea, "how do you compare the sea with your little well?"

Then the frog took another leap and asked, "Is your sea so big?"

"What nonsense you speak, to compare the sea with your well!"

"Well, then," said the frog of the well, "nothing can be bigger than my well; there can be nothing bigger than this; this fellow is a liar, so turn him out."


I am honestly curious. Do you believe without question? If so, why is there no other way?

I have questioned and doubted Christianity in the past. But I earnestly sought answers; some were given to me, and with the others, I was given comfort and faith that even though I don't understand it, God is in complete control. But now, as far as the big things are concerned - Christ's deity, crucifixion resurrection, and slavation, I have no doubts whatsoever. I believe with all my heart.

I can even boil it down to a logical level. Logic and reason do play a role in my belief system. My knowledge is not limited to Christianity. I know quite a bit about many other religions. With every other monotheistic religion out there, a man's salvation depens on "how good he can be", "what he can do for God". Christianity takes that and stomps on it til it dies. In Christianity, man can't do a draned thing to "earn" God's acceptance, because man is sinful. Christ turns legalism on its ears - no matter what you do, you can't buy your way into his kingdom. Christ dies on teh cross to reconcile God and man. The other religions are all about "man reaching up to God". Christianity is all about "God reaching down to man, to lift him up - out of the mirey clay", to use the words of Bono. The way I see it, it makes more sense that if God is absolutely perfect and righteous, he cannot abide anything less than perfect and righteous. Therefore, the others don't cut it for me - they're exercises in futility. Christianity provided grace, and escape plan, that is based not on man's imperfect efforts but on the never failing love of God.

 

[melon]

How does "aberration from prescribed law or duty" sound to you.d my mind is imperfect, and often sinful.

If it's anything like our translation of "toe'vah" into "abomination," when it's really a "ritual taboo" within the NT-revoked "Purity Codes," then it doesn't mean much to me.

However, the spirit of a reborn person is absolutely perfect. I know you don't believe all the words of the Bible, especially Paul. But I'll say it anyway: Read Romans, Ephesians, and Galatians.

I like Paul, mainly because I think he's the most human element of the Bible. I see a man who aspires to be good and has intellectual prowess to back it up. But I also see a man who gets easily frustrated and writes harsh things that seem out of place with the rest of his works. That's okay, though.

I particularly like Romans 13:8-10:

"Owe nothing to anyone, except to love one another; for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. The commandments, 'You shall not commit adultery; you shall not kill; you shall not steal; you shall not covet,' and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this saying, (namely) 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' Love does no evil to the neighbor; hence, love is the fulfillment of the law."

I may not know everything, and I may not be perfect. That is the essence of one's humanity. But if I act out of love, then I know I don't have to get the rest correct necessarily. On the other hand, when people use Biblical legalism with ill intentions, I do believe that is a sin, as it is a violation against love.

But back to Paul and my admiration of his imperfections. God forbid my own FYM writings ever get entered into a religious canon someday, because I'd probably be equally confusing for audiences.

Melon

 

[shart1780]

Hmmm... I believe in everything the Bible says. That Jesus is the son of God and the only way to Heaven.

 

[80sU2isBest]

I particularly like Romans 13:8-10:

"Owe nothing to anyone, except to love one another; for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. The commandments, 'You shall not commit adultery; you shall not kill; you shall not steal; you shall not covet,' and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this saying, (namely) 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' Love does no evil to the neighbor; hence, love is the fulfillment of the law."

I may not know everything, and I may not be perfect. That is the essence of one's humanity. But if I act out of love, then I know I don't have to get the rest correct necessarily. On the other hand, when people use Biblical legalism with ill intentions, I do believe that is a sin, as it is a violation against love.

But back to Paul and my admiration of his imperfections. God forbid my own FYM writings ever get entered into a religious canon someday, because I'd probably be equally confusing for audiences.

Melon

I like Romans 13:8-10, also. It is exactly how people, should behave and what they should set in their hearts.

But read Romans chapters 6 through 8, and you'll see that man cannot live up to that standard. That is why we need the Savior.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Hmmm... I believe in everything the Bible says. That Jesus is the son of God and the only way to Heaven.

As do I. But some people in Free Your Mind will "let you have it" you for having the gumption to actually believe that all religions aren't the same.

 

[unosdostres14]

I have questioned and doubted Christianity in the past. But I earnestly sought answers; some were given to me, and with the others, I was given comfort and faith that even though I don't understand it, God is in complete control. But now, as far as the big things are concerned - Christ's deity, crucifixion resurrection, and slavation, I have no doubts whatsoever. I believe with all my heart.

I can even boil it down to a logical level. Logic and reason do play a role in my belief system. My knowledge is not limited to Christianity. I know quite a bit about many other religions. With every other monotheistic religion out there, a man's salvation depens on "how good he can be", "what he can do for God". Christianity takes that and stomps on it til it dies. In Christianity, man can't do a draned thing to "earn" God's acceptance, because man is sinful. Christ turns legalism on its ears - no matter what you do, you can't buy your way into his kingdom. Christ dies on teh cross to reconcile God and man. The other religions are all about "man reaching up to God". Christianity is all about "God reaching down to man, to lift him up - out of the mirey clay", to use the words of Bono. The way I see it, it makes more sense that if God is absolutely perfect and righteous, he cannot abide anything less than perfect and righteous. Therefore, the others don't cut it for me - they're exercises in futility. Christianity provided grace, and escape plan, that is based not on man's imperfect efforts but on the never failing love of God.

How do you know "Christ's deity"? How do you know "crucifixion resurrection"?How do you know "slavation". How do you know that humans are innately sinners? Isn't it possible that we just.....do bad things sometimes. How do you know (your version of) God picks us up when we are down. How can any of this be known?

 

[unosdostres14]

If I told you that I was the son of God, would anyone in here believe me?

 

[80sU2isBest]

If it's anything like our translation of "toe'vah" into "abomination," when it's really a "ritual taboo" within the NT-revoked "Purity Codes," then it doesn't mean much to me.

Melon, as you probably know, a Lexicon is a Greek dictionary. Do you not believe what a Greek dictionary has to say about the meaning of a Greek word?

 

[melon]

I like Romans 13:8-10, also. It is exactly how people, should behave and what they should set in their hearts.

But read Romans chapters 6 through 8, and you'll see that man cannot live up to that standard. That is why we need the Savior.

I'm not going to disagree, really, because of my own Christian heritage.

However, the rational side of me still cannot reconcile the other 4-5 billion people in the world. After all, the Koran makes plenty of judgments against the "infidels." What it all boils down to, I guess, is what book we give authority to, and if we believe something merely to be literature, no matter all the moral proclamations in the world, we won't believe them.

And who am I to say that they're "wrong," when they'll readily declare me "wrong" for not believing in their own scriptures?

Melon

 

[melon]

Melon, as you probably know, a Lexicon is a Greek dictionary. Do you not believe what a Greek dictionary has to say about the meaning of a Greek word?

"I don't know." The trouble is who is writing the dictionary, and a "chicken and egg" scenario. Did the definition come from the original ancient Greek or through traditional interpretations of that ancient Greek? It means a world of difference to me.

That's what I get for studying semiotics. Umberto Eco would be proud of me overanalyzing everything.

Melon

 

[financeguy]

How do you know "Christ's deity"? How do you know "crucifixion resurrection"?How do you know "slavation". How do you know that humans are innately sinners? Isn't it possible that we just.....do bad things sometimes. How do you know (your version of) God picks us up when we are down. How can any of this be known?

You're kind of asking questions that 80s' already answered and the debate is in danger of going in circles.

 

[God Part III]

God didn't create man, man created God.

There is no god.

 

[80sU2isBest]

How do you know "Christ's deity"? How do you know "crucifixion resurrection"?How do you know "slavation". How do you know that humans are innately sinners? Isn't it possible that we just.....do bad things sometimes. How do you know (your version of) God picks us up when we are down. How can any of this be known?

Lacking 100% percent proof, the best a man can do is trust his life to faith. I have sufficient reason as displayed many times in my life to have faith in Christ.

I have also seen it physically in 2 grand miracles in my own life, one of which I shall briefly describe:

3 or 4 years ago, the Holy Spirit/God/Christ saved my life by giving me a command, a command that came out of nowhere. I did not expect it and I did not actually want to obey, because it went contrary to everything human reasoning was tellling me. However, I did obey and was spared from what would have been a horrible accident.

That miracle is not what I base my faith upon, but it did provide a certain level of support and strength to my faith. If it had never happened, I would still have faith, if I were actually even still alive.

 

[financeguy]

There is no god.

Well hello. Fundamentalist atheism I find no less dogmatic that fundamentalist belief. It rests on unprovable assumptions.

 

[unosdostres14]

You're kind of asking questions that 80s' already answered and the debate is in danger of going in circles.

How was 80sU2 already answered this? All he/she has said that answered his/her prayers during rough times and things like that. I haven't found factual evidence proving that this stuff actually is true.

 

[unosdostres14]

Are only Christians going to heaven?

Are non-believers condemned to an eternity of burning in hell?

 

[financeguy]

But you're not going to get factual evidence! 80's belief is based partly on personal revelation (if I understand him correctly, and he can correct me if I'm wrong.)

 

[melon]

I haven't found factual evidence proving that this stuff actually is true.

You probably asked questions you knew couldn't be answered, and in the absence of their inability to be answered, his ideas would, by default, be dismissed.

Faith, or the lack thereof, is all based on irrationality, and, by its nature, cannot be proven. Nothing any of us can say here can be proven outright.

Melon

 

[80sU2isBest]

How was 80sU2 already answered this? All he/she has said that answered his/her prayers during rough times and things like that. I haven't found factual evidence proving that this stuff actually is true.

And you won't find 100 % evidence, as I said before. If that's what you require, then you might as well stop now. However, if you are willing to look beyond, if you start to believe that man's wisdom is like a single grain of sand on the beach at Ft. Lauderdale, then you will open up to the idea that maybe we can't find all the answers in our textbooks and universities.

 

[80sU2isBest]

But you're not going to get factual evidence! 80's belief is based partly on personal revelation (if I understand him correctly, and he can correct me if I'm wrong.)

Thank you

 

[unosdostres14]

In Greece, they believed in Zeus and all those gods and stuff. They believed that the sun came up in the morning because Apollo carried it in his chariot across the sky. They believed that we had winter because Demeter's daughter Persephone got captured and Demeter (the god of agriculture) wept during those months when Persephone has to return to Hades. In retrospect we realize how ridiculous the Greek religion was. Yet they believed it. Why? Were they dumb? The Greeks were expert scientists and understood much about nature. Is there any difference between what they believed and what some Christians believe. Did Noah really live to be 600? I'm not trying to say Christianity is WRONG. I'm trying to say that perhaps "everything you know is wrong".

 

[unosdostres14]

And you won't find 100 % evidence, as I said before. If that's what you require, then you might as well stop now. However, if you are willing to look beyond, if you start to believe that man's wisdom is like a single grain of sand on the beach at Ft. Lauderdale, then you will open up to the idea that maybe we can't find all the answers in our textbooks and universities.

Yes but the answers you have found (that weren't taught to you). Since your knowledge is but a grain of sand on the beach, how can you be sure that your religious views are correct?

 

[80sU2isBest]

You probably asked questions you knew couldn't be answered, and in the absence of their inability to be answered, his ideas would, by default, be dismissed.

Faith, or the lack thereof, is all based on irrationality, and, by its nature, cannot be proven. Nothing any of us can say here can be proven outright.

Melon

That's right

(I don't know about the irrationality part, because my brain is turning to jello and have lost the meaning of what is rational, so I'm going to bed)

Good night, Melon. I've enjoyed our conversation.

 

[melon]

Good night, Melon. I've enjoyed our conversation.

I've enjoyed it too. Take care.

Melon

 

[unosdostres14]

That's right

(I don't know about the irrationality part, because my brain is turning to jello and have lost the meaning of what is rational, so I'm going to bed)

Good night, Melon. I've enjoyed our conversation.

Sleep is for the weak!


hehe....just kidding. We had a good conversation though. Don't forget to pray before you go to sleep.