Vrbno pod Pradědem Superthread

[major_panic]

Dude, didn't you know? Sex is EEEEEVIL.

What's that make people like Jen and WildHoneyAlways then?

Whoah, 45d for the first time tonight!

 

[Alisaura]

And sorry Bonnie, I don't think I have many pics of the R&H premiere (she says, three pages after question was asked)...

Besides, my pic folder is woefully disorganised.





more random: I love that sniff 'n' stiff ad!!

 

[major_panic]

Buddhism is quite possibly the religion I respect the most, all things considered. I could never be a Buddhist though. Its practices simply don't suit me.

Not the quiet meditative type?

When you come to Melbourne later this year, you, the Maj., and I should totally go out, get a bottle of good wine and some nibbles, and sit around having a theological discussion. All my life I've wanted to have an intelligent and open minded discussion about religion with a group of people my age ... all the folks I knew on the Gold Coast were either too absorbed in their almost fundie Christianity or simply didn't care for religion.

For sure. I'm always happy to discuss theology, although every once in a while I need to stop to clear my brain, it gets bottled up sometimes.

And on a side note, man I wish Larry was still drumming like he did on War or October. I mean, the live version of COBL's great, but stuff like Vertigo and ISHFWILF could be so, so, so much better. He needs to reinvigorate WOWY too.

 

[major_panic]

Just came across this on Wikipedia and thought I'd post it for the hell of it: The Four Noble Truths of Buddhism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Noble_Truths

# The Nature of Suffering (Dukkha):
"Now this ... is the noble truth of suffering: birth is suffering, aging is suffering, illness is suffering, death is suffering; union with what is displeasing is suffering; separation from what is pleasing is suffering; not to get what one wants is suffering; in brief, the five aggregates subject to clinging are suffering."

# Suffering's Origin (Samudaya):
"Now this ... is the noble truth of the origin of suffering: it is this craving which leads to renewed existence, accompanied by delight and lust, seeking delight here and there, that is, craving for sensual pleasures, craving for existence, craving for extermination."

# Suffering's Cessation (Nirodha):
"Now this ... is the noble truth of the cessation of suffering: it is the remainderless fading away and cessation of that same craving, the giving up and relinquishing of it, freedom from it, nonreliance on it."

# The Way (Marga) Leading to the Cessation of Suffering:
"Now this ... is the noble truth of the way leading to the cessation of suffering: it is the Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration."

Fascinating, isn't it?

 

[Alisaura]

I've wondered if I am perhaps an atheist rather than an agnostic. But I'm not comfortable with the label of atheist. I am, perhaps, strictly a weak atheist, but the line betweeen weak atheism and agnosticism is hopelessly blurred anyway. I love being an agnostic.

The only problem I have with the "atheist" thing is that choosing to NOT believe in God is just as strong a statement (to me) as believing in God is. A Christian believes there is a God - an atheist believes, just as strongly (again, this is my understanding), that there is NO God.

I'm inherently incapable of making such a definitive choice about anything I don't feel qualified to state definitively either way.

Fence-sitting FTW! ... I think agnosticism is the closest thing to that....


Can I sit in on your wine-fuelled theology discussion? I'll just sit quietly at the back and absorb your wisdom

Must go to bed....

 

[Axver]

I think people sometimes just read waaay too much into the Bible, or forget that God as shown in the Old Testament still has traces of polytheism clinging to Him (El, Yah, Jehovah, etc are all taken now to be "facets" of God - but could it just be the remnants of polytheism?)

Heresy I find hilarious, and always mention it for cheap lolz. Although, Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons...

Parts of Genesis CLEARLY show the polytheist origins of Judaism. I'm rusty on my Judaism history, but I know the original conceptualisations of Yahweh did not view him as the sole deity - just the sole deity for Israel to worship.

JWs and Mormons ... well, if I've nothing nice to say, maybe I shouldn't say anything! I don't know how people buy into that stuff. I especially love JW interpretations of the Book of Revelation. Nearly as bad as the Rapture theory kooks and the Left Behind series.

I think you misunderstood me a bit, old chap. I think humanity's great, it's just that it can never find God on its own due to its defects. Hence, "we're screwed". It does frighten me, though, that humans are capable of so much brilliance and so much violence at the same time - the atomic bomb being one example.

Ah, I must've misunderstood you, yeah. I'm just so used to the "we're screwed" sort of talk from folks putting forth a negative conceptualisation of humanity. I find a negative conceptualisation simply too depressing. Here I have an interesting theological and political interaction regarding the innate positivity of humanity in all its finitude, and the value of life within my pacifism.

Like I said to Saddo, it's a search that can take a lifetime, and I'm just glad that you've found something that you find peace in. Answers, however... That's a much harder and much more frustrating quest altogether.

I have so many questions these days and few answers. Theories, yes; conclusions, no. I love it though. The more inquiry, the better. My answer to "what is the point?" is knowledge ... unfortunately something being very challenged right now ...

 

[Alisaura]

What's that make people like Jen and WildHoneyAlways then?

Whoah, 45d for the first time tonight!

... No comment



And whoah! there's life in the old girl (the thread) yet...

 

[Axver]

Just as an aside, I really badly hope I haven't missed anybody's posts. I think at the moment I'm running about a page behind ...

 

[Alisaura]

He needs to reinvigorate WOWY too.

What he needs is probably a new spine and some spare tendons...

 

[The Sad Punk]

And sorry Bonnie, I don't think I have many pics of the R&H premiere (she says, three pages after question was asked)...

Oh, that's fine. I am of course, in no rush to see twenty year old photos of U2.

When you come to Melbourne later this year, you, the Maj., and I should totally go out, get a bottle of good wine and some nibbles, and sit around having a theological discussion. All my life I've wanted to have an intelligent and open minded discussion about religion with a group of people my age ... all the folks I knew on the Gold Coast were either too absorbed in their almost fundie Christianity or simply didn't care for religion.

That sounds fantastic. I consider myself lucky to have a couple of other amateur theologists as friends. It's basically the only thing we talk about after enough drinks, then I start rambling about Islamic reformation and why homophobia is so outdated in society, etc.

I'll have to make sure there's time for it and know where to stay in Melbourne, since most likely my brother will be coming with me.

I'm not a big wine drinker these days, though, other than fortified. Bad experiences with it and such. Since it'll probably be winter, I'll bring some gin along for tasting or some winter-type Belgian beers - that is, unless the heatwave is still going then!

Mind you, the nibbles must include the following:
- high quality feta
- quality tzatziki
- sun-dried tomato dip
- Camembert
- a shitload of Jatz.

 

[Axver]

Meaning of life = make more life

Meaning of consciousness = ... much more tricky.

Such a scientist.

On the point of God being lonely/fallible... is loneliness a flaw? I would consider a being who was all alone in the vast nothingness and who didn't feel lonely to be somewhat flawed.
On the other hand, if you were the only being that has ever existed, would you be able to even conceive of the idea of having company? Of course, God being God would be able to...

This is a really good point. I think a lot of the loneliness thing depends on how you address the matter and conceptualise God in the first place. If you understand God's perfection in the sense that God lacks and needs for nothing, then loneliness would indeed be a flaw, and more than a flaw - it would be a need for something, and would thus deny God's perfection within that conceptualisation.

But is an attribute of perfection or of "being God" a need for nothing? I actually originally worded this "a lack of lacking nothing" ... hello paradox, as that in itself is a lack! A lack of lack!

 

[major_panic]

Parts of Genesis CLEARLY show the polytheist origins of Judaism. I'm rusty on my Judaism history, but I know the original conceptualisations of Yahweh did not view him as the sole deity - just the sole deity for Israel to worship.

JWs and Mormons ... well, if I've nothing nice to say, maybe I shouldn't say anything! I don't know how people buy into that stuff. I especially love JW interpretations of the Book of Revelation. Nearly as bad as the Rapture theory kooks and the Left Behind series.

"I am the Lord your God, who delivered you out of Egypt; you shall have no other gods but me" clearly implies the existence of other gods.

the Left Behind series. You should see how my lecturers get when someone mentions those "books", one of them will immediately pull out heaps of scriptures disproving the Rapture and spend the next 45 minutes completely shredding the theory apart. Brilliant, brilliant man.

I have so many questions these days and few answers. Theories, yes; conclusions, no. I love it though. The more inquiry, the better. My answer to "what is the point?" is knowledge ... unfortunately something being very challenged right now ...

You remind me of this guy:

I paraphrase one of his quotes in DC's 52 series as something like "What's the point of life? Well, that's the question, isn't it? You won't always get an answer, and sometimes an answer will only lead to more questions. But you can always ask questions."

 

[Alisaura]

Mind you, the nibbles must include the following:
- high quality feta
- quality tzatziki
- sun-dried tomato dip
- Camembert
- a shitload of Jatz.

I am definitely gatecrashing this get together!

 

[The Sad Punk]

The only problem I have with the "atheist" thing is that choosing to NOT believe in God is just as strong a statement (to me) as believing in God is. A Christian believes there is a God - an atheist believes, just as strongly (again, this is my understanding), that there is NO God.

I'm inherently incapable of making such a definitive choice about anything I don't feel qualified to state definitively either way.

Fence-sitting FTW! ... I think agnosticism is the closest thing to that....

It's the uncertainty about agnosticism I love. We are ignorant. That's how my mind is now, that nobody can be certain of anything about a god. Nobody can truly be theist or atheist. Agnosticism is the limbo, the connection between the two. I feel very safe there, but still not fulfilled.

 

[The Sad Punk]

I am definitely gatecrashing this get together!

Oh hell yes! I'm sure we'll probably talk about stuff other than theology, anyway.

 

[major_panic]

But is an attribute of perfection or of "being God" a need for nothing? I actually originally worded this "a lack of lacking nothing" ... hello paradox, as that in itself is a lack! A lack of lack!

I'm going to drag this thread down from its intellectual level to post this exchange that happened at my high school:

Maths Teacher: "What you have there is a surd in a surd in a surd."

Student: "That's absurd!"

 

[major_panic]

Oh hell yes! I'm sure we'll probably talk about stuff other than theology, anyway.

U2, for example?

I know, we'll talk about

ONE!

 

[The Sad Punk]

No, we won't talk about One. Unless it relates to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyZYnBN37IM

 

[Alisaura]

But is an attribute of perfection or of "being God" a need for nothing? I actually originally worded this "a lack of lacking nothing" ... hello paradox, as that in itself is a lack! A lack of lack!

But if lack is defined as a void or nothing or whatever... can you lack it? If you had EVERYTHING, then perhaps you would lack lack... but it's impossible to lack nothing, if you count a lack as something you can lack...


*headasplode*

It's too late at night for this ... I need milo.

*abandons hope of adequate sleep*

 

[major_panic]

Mind you, the nibbles must include the following:
- high quality feta
- quality tzatziki
- sun-dried tomato dip
- Camembert
- a shitload of Jatz.

Hell yes. You have good taste. Add some Jarlsberg to the mix for fun and I'm totally there!

Actually Ax, that reminds me of the fetta cheese / sundried tomato toasted sandwich thing - did you ever try that?

 

[Axver]

YES. The church (well, the parts of it that I know about) are well aware of this and are preparing for a massive fight.

I think that the Secular Age is going to come soon. Which is a bit sad and a bit exciting in equal parts really - sad when you consider that 6000+ years of human belief will be dropped, but exciting when you consider that we'll be going deep into uncharted territory and probably coming up with whole new ideas and concepts.

I'd say that the church would evolve and adapt to the new ideas. It has to, in order to survive. Even the Vatican is beginning to now - note how "pollution" is one of the 14 all-new deadly sins!

I worry that the church is approaching the Secular Age in the wrong way. I feel as if it has an inherently negative attitude. Now, I know, this is natural! It has a lot of self-interest at stake. But I feel that its attitude will only serve to discourage more people. I think it would be sad if the church became the old codger waving its stick, screaming "you bloody kids". It would only harm religion more.

Perhaps the best thing for the church to do is to stop viewing it as a fight! I know, I'm talking to a brick wall with regards to the American evangelicals, but many other Christian bodies are probably quite happy to sit down and talk things out respectfully with the non-religious. There's no fight. We're all just people looking for answers. Let's work together and share notes. I just so happen to think this process will lead to the irrelevancy of religion, but that's leading to another discussion entirely!

By the way, when I first heard about the Vatican's new sins thing, I thought it was an Onion parody!

 

[Alisaura]

"I am the Lord your God, who delivered you out of Egypt; you shall have no other gods but me" clearly implies the existence of other gods.

I remember wondering about that when I was having a go at a Gideon bible in some hotel room somewhere. I used to drive between Canberra and my parents' place (in Victoria) every so often, and stop overnight in Albury... and I'd read a bit of the bible in the room, just out of curiosity. I keep meaning to have a proper read of it...

(I did have to chuckle at the bit where some guy puts his hand under some other guy's thigh to solemnly swear something. *cough*)

 

[Axver]

Dude, didn't you know? Sex is EEEEEVIL.

And it TOTALLY harms Christ's divinity if Mary subsequently got it on with Joseph. We must stay away from the evil sex! NATURAL DESIRES ARE OF SATAN!

(Yeah, there's another one of my problems with mainstream religion. It doesn't even try to put forward an intelligent argument that natural desires need to be properly channelled to be healthy; it just rants and raves about sin and tsks at everyone.)



(Wow, am I now about 30 posts behind or something? I guess I stop to ponder a bit when writing some of these posts as religion is very important to me and that slows me down ...)

 

[Alisaura]

It's the uncertainty about agnosticism I love. We are ignorant. That's how my mind is now, that nobody can be certain of anything about a god. Nobody can truly be theist or atheist. Agnosticism is the limbo, the connection between the two. I feel very safe there, but still not fulfilled.

Me too, totally. It's the unfulfilledness that keeps me curious about theology and spirituality in general - I'm not necessarily looking for something to believe in, I don't think I necessarily NEED to believe in something, but I'm still curious.

 

[The Sad Punk]

Hell yes. You have good taste. Add some Jarlsberg to the mix for fun and I'm totally there!

Actually Ax, that reminds me of the fetta cheese / sundried tomato toasted sandwich thing - did you ever try that?

Oh, Jarlsberg - how could I forget? We could fry up some Cypriot haloumi, too.

I'm rather glad none of you are vegan.

 

[major_panic]

I worry that the church is approaching the Secular Age in the wrong way. I feel as if it has an inherently negative attitude. Now, I know, this is natural! It has a lot of self-interest at stake. But I feel that its attitude will only serve to discourage more people. I think it would be sad if the church became the old codger waving its stick, screaming "you bloody kids". It would only harm religion more.

Perhaps the best thing for the church to do is to stop viewing it as a fight! I know, I'm talking to a brick wall with regards to the American evangelicals, but many other Christian bodies are probably quite happy to sit down and talk things out respectfully with the non-religious. There's no fight. We're all just people looking for answers. Let's work together and share notes. I just so happen to think this process will lead to the irrelevancy of religion, but that's leading to another discussion entirely!

By the way, when I first heard about the Vatican's new sins thing, I thought it was an Onion parody!

I'm hoping for more interfaith dialogue and promotion of cross-understanding (if that's even a word).

By fight though, I mean a spiritual one, where they have to undergo some sort of transformation to remain relevant and they know it.

Which is why I'm trying to find more theologians. I'm doing cutting-edge stuff for the church as a hobby: writing studies and discussions, and hoping to influence the coming generation to coexist peacefully with everyone else.

 

[The Sad Punk]

And it TOTALLY harms Christ's divinity if Mary subsequently got it on with Joseph. We must stay away from the evil sex! NATURAL DESIRES ARE OF SATAN!

I'm not completely certain on this, since I haven't read much about the subject, but there is the possibility that Mary was not a virgin at all, and it's simply from an accidental mistranslation of New Testament Greek that we have this interpretation.

However, I always take theories like this with a grain of salt.

 

[major_panic]

(I did have to chuckle at the bit where some guy puts his hand under some other guy's thigh to solemnly swear something. *cough*)

I remember reading that and going a giant WTF?!.

You should all check out the Brick Testament by the way - it includes some absolutely hilarious takes on the Torah laws!

 

[Axver]

Not the quiet meditative type?

The sometimes quiet, sometimes very excitable intellectual type , yes!

And on a side note, man I wish Larry was still drumming like he did on War or October. I mean, the live version of COBL's great, but stuff like Vertigo and ISHFWILF could be so, so, so much better. He needs to reinvigorate WOWY too.

I agree entirely. I was especially disappointed by Larry during The Fly last tour. It was the best version of The Fly ever, but Larry's drumming was made of epic phail. I tried to headbang, but he was far too boring. I headbanged anyway as Edge was rocking the fuck out, but had to imagine more drumming there to make it worthwhile ...

 

[major_panic]

I'm not completely certain on this, since I haven't read much about the subject, but there is the possibility that Mary was not a virgin at all, and it's simply from an accidental mistranslation of New Testament Greek that we have this interpretation.

Really? I haven't heard this one - I do know that the Catholic idea of transubstantiation comes from a mistranslation by Jerome from Greek into Latin, and I think (but I'm much less certain of) similarly with the worship of Mary.

Once I learn NT Greek, I'll have to check on that.