Should we?

[Liesje]

You are a fine example and if everyone followed your lead then it wouldn't require legislation. But US citizens that I have worked with in the UK believe that the US is littered with people who are simply on the 'take'

Well, I'm embarassed by those US citizens, quite frankly. Yes, it would be great if everyone would take the time to learn the language of the country they are moving to, but the point I keep coming back to is that yes, I can learn Kiswahili because I can afford it and I can afford to spend a few hours in class taking time off from a job. I don't think it's right or fair to require people who are already trying to overcome economic hardship to learn a second language without providing any tax dollars to establish programs to do so, simply because it makes life more convenient for ME.

 

[BVS]

BVS can you please answer my other questions from the first page.

That can't be answered without the original question of fear being answered.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

Yes, I know this, but it doesn't apply to anything I was talking about...

You're making unreasonable allegations of racism. I know you're smart enough to know the difference between race, language, and culture. You don't fool me.

Look like I've said before, not learning English is a disadvantage to those who move here. But it's their choice. That's all I'm saying. We live in a country built on immigrants coming from different languages, a pretty unique background compared to most countries. Yet why are we the only ones that get pissed off when there's multilingual signage?

The country built by immigrants stood firm as a result of accepting ONE language in which they communicate.

How can the Tower of Babel be a gift and not a curse?

 

[BVS]

You're making unreasonable allegations of racism. I know you're smart enough to know the difference between race, language, and culture. You don't fool me.

I haven't made any false accusations. In fact I haven't actually made any actual accusations yet. I'm still trying to get to the root of the issue.

The country built by immigrants stood firm as a result of accepting ONE language in which they communicate.

How can the Tower of Babel be a gift and not a curse?

Your Tower of Babel analogy fails, for the point of the Tower of Babel story was not the different languages but goal of the tower. The goal of the tower was of pride and arrogance.

But nice try.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

I haven't made any false accusations. In fact I haven't actually made any actual accusations yet. I'm still trying to get to the root of the issue.

What is it about the issue that you don't understand?
Should we impose our English on Spanish-speaking countries?

Your Tower of Babel analogy fails, for the point of the Tower of Babel story was not the different languages but goal of the tower. The goal of the tower was of pride and arrogance.

But nice try.

The consequence of The Tower of Babel is that people could no longer communicate as a result of what they did. If we accept the imposing of any given foreign language, we can expect our country to regress drastically. That is why the analogy makes perfect sense.

The results are the heart of the matter, not the intentions.

 

[digsy]

don't know if this has been mentioned already but the UK are very strict and getting more so, on immigrants "fitting into" England

before you're granted permanent citizenship you have to prove you can speak english either by certificate or taking a test AND you now have to take and pass whats called the "life in the UK" test before you can apply.
its all about making sure people understand what living in the UK is about and integrating properly and so includes such "valuable" questions like "what do you do if you accidently knock over someones pint in a bar?" with multiple choice answers that range from logical to absurd

i don't personally have an issue with expecting people who hope to settle in a specific language speaking country to learn that language - if i wanted to live in France i'd expect to need to learn french

should it be a forced requirement of a visa...? well not a temporary visa but i think if people are applying to settle in a country permanently then once again its not unreasonable to expect that, if they plan on taking the benfits of citizenship and presumably contributing to that country, that they at least speak its language.
worth bearing in mind with that is that it takes years of residence to apply for permanent citizenship - at least 5 years in the UK (except for rare circumstance) where you had to have a visa to start with - and after 5 years of living in a country one should know the language.
if they dont then its reasonable for the powers that be to question what benefit this person is going to bring by joining the country if they can't even contribute on the most basic level
this is especailly prevailant in england where citizens can claim all sorts of things off the government and non-citizens can't - if you're going to be using the country to your benefit then i think you should also be contributing back to the country and speaking the language is obviously a core requirement for this.

but once again, thats only really for permanent visas - if you were planning on going to a country to spend time there and see what its like - get experience, financial benfit etc - i wouldn't expect or agree with a language being enforced. only really if you decided after several years that you now wanted to make this country your home do i think its fair to enforce an understanding of the local language.

however, i really don't care what language you put your signs in though

 

[BVS]

What is it about the issue that you don't understand?
Should we impose our English on Spanish-speaking countries?

What are you talking about? Did you see the line of questioning I had for Justin?

The consequence of The Tower of Babel is that people could no longer communicate as a result of what they did. If we accept the imposing of any given foreign language, we can expect our country to regress drastically. That is why the analogy makes perfect sense.

The results are the heart of the matter, not the intentions.

That my friend is some backwards logic. That's like saying, as a result of playing with fire you burnt your hand, but the fire is not the problem it's the burnt hand.

 

[Justin24]

I agree with what digsy posted. I have already stressed that no one has to loose there language or culture, just learn your now new native countries language. If they dont how can we communicate? Am I going to have to take spanish or italian or what ever so I can finally speak with them?

 

[BVS]

Am I going to have to take spanish or italian or what ever so I can finally speak with them?

All coming back to your fear...

 

[adrball]

justin...very fair point. agree

 

[Justin24]

It's not fear, but an inconvinence for some. I speak spanish, so where is the fear. I can understand people who speak in spanish where is the fear. I can read spanish where is the fear?

Have you travel to any countries in Central America? The most likely english speakers you will find are in the capitol. How would you fair in the country side??? Would they expect you to know spanish? Or Mestiso

 

[BVS]

It's not fear, but an inconvinence for some.

I'd like to see how you are truly inconvenienced?

 

[Justin24]

I have given an example earlier where it was an inconvinience. I finally had to speak to her in spanish. But what if it was some one else?

 

[Liesje]

Justin, if you don't want tax money spent on making signs bi-lingual, is it safe for me to assume you don't want money spent on helping immigrants learn English? If so, how do you expect them to learn a completely new language? Do they have to pay for it? What if they WANT to become American citizens and WANT to work in this country and pay our taxes and support our economy but we're turning them away because they can't read Moby Dick and we're too stubborn to help them?

 

[Justin24]

I am all for helping them learn english, and I am all for them keeping there native language. Those signs should be more for tourist purposes. If they want to become american citizens good for them. But they must remember the primary language spoken here is English unless you go to different neighborhoods, but in General it's English. LivLuv answer yes or no to this. When you and other say they pay taxes especially into the Social Security System are they using a fake or stolen SS#? Isn't that ID theft?

no one has answered my other questions that I have asked for in the begining.

 

[BVS]

I have given an example earlier where it was an inconvinience. I finally had to speak to her in spanish. But what if it was some one else?

You mean the store?

Well that's probably a very rare case, for I now live in a majority Hispanic city in Texas and never have I once ever walked into a place that didn't speak English.

 

[Justin24]

Well texas and california are different.

 

[BVS]

I am all for helping them learn english, and I am all for them keeping there native language. Those signs should be more for tourist purposes.

See now you are clouding the issue once again. You first say you don't want your taxes to pay for, but now it's fine if it's for tourists? What's the difference?

I think you really need to define the core of your personal issue with all of this.

When you and other say they pay taxes especially into the Social Security System are they using a fake or stolen SS#? Isn't that ID theft?

no one has answered my other questions that I have asked for in the begining.

Once again this and most of your other questions are clouding the issue. ID theft is ID theft it doesn't matter by who, so really this has nothing to do with it...

 

[BVS]

Well texas and california are different.

So you honestly walk into a lot of restaurants and stores and can't find service?

 

[adrball]

I don't think it's right or fair to require people who are already trying to overcome economic hardship to learn a second language without providing any tax dollars to establish programs to do so, simply because it makes life more convenient for ME.

I think that's fine if it's a component of a controlled immigration program. One where a net benefit to society can be demonstrated by alternative methods.

But allowing immigration without such a basic requirement to learn the language prevents social integration to any degree.

But I think Justin's first post referred primarily to illegal immigration. I feel no obligation to provide financial support to someone that has bypassed all the legal channels.

 

[Justin24]

So you honestly walk into a lot of restaurants and stores and can't find service?

You can but some times they will call over someone who speaks english.

 

[Justin24]

What's the difference?



Once again this and most of your other questions are clouding the issue. ID theft is ID theft it doesn't matter by who, so really this has nothing to do with it...

The difference is Tourists are here temporary.

Yes but a person who is here illegally can ruin your credit and flee back hom or deny it was him, because he has no identity here in the first place.

 

[adrball]

Yes but a person who is here illegally can ruin your credit and flee back hom or deny it was him, because he has no identity here in the first place.

Not really a sound argument to substantiate your view. Anyone can ruin your credit, flee home and deny it. An illegal immigrant, legal immigrant, a tourist or even your mother.

 

[Justin24]

Ok I will take it back. But for them to have it in the first place is absurd.

What you said earlier about how the British enforce there immigration policy is something the US should look into. We have every right like all the other countries of the world to police and protect our borders. North, South, East West.

 

[Muggsy]

And how many languages are you willing to learn in order to conversate in your own country?

well... In my own country (if you don't know, spanish is my primary language) I had to pass the english language test, to get my Graphic designer degree... and I don't even plan to work in your country . And to be honest that question only shows a very lazy and comfortable attitude... I wouldn't mind to learn every single language in the world if I could, because I like to learn, and I think that it is important to communicate with others, respecting their difference...

the first time I traveled to the US my dad told me that it doesn't matter if I didn't know how to speak english properly, but If I could say "thank you" or "please" that would show that I'm polite and that I'm willing to comunicate with others. Is it so hard to say "por favor " or "gracias" or "arigato", "merci" etc. ??? don't these words show you as an open minded and correct person??

reading those kind of comments just makes me feel so frustrated, it is like, illegal or not, we were some kind of menace for you . and the worst part is that I'm just throwing these words to the air because I know I will be ignored as always

 

[adrball]

anyone who ruins your credit intentionally is not a postive contributor to society - illegal immigrant or legal resident. Suggest you find more compelling reasons to support your view.

 

[sulawesigirl4]

I grew up in a country (Indonesia) that has one "national" language and thousands of completely distinct local languages. I lived in Switzerland for about a year...they have I believe 4 official languages. I never met anyone there who wasn't at least bi- if not tri-lingual. And recently living in Mali where the "official" language is of the colonial occupiers, the French, everyone speaks at least one local language and usually more depending on their geographic location. You could be ethnically from the Dogon tribe and speak Dogon because it's what you speak at home, live in an area where the Peuls are the dominant group and also speak Peul in order to get practical business done, speak Bambara because it really is the unofficial language of Mali (again to get business done) and hopefully some French that you learned in school (if you had a chance to go) to do school and/or government business.

I guess I can't be bothered to be upset if one more language is added to the roster of our linguistic homogeneous country. I'd like to learn Spanish one of these days. I'm busy with Chinese at the moment, but hopefully this will be the next one on my list.

 

[Justin24]

Listen I know 99.9% of the illegal immigrants here are good people and I do not have a problem with them. What I do have a problem is when they demand the same rights as everyone else when they made the choice to come here illegally in the first place. Yes you will say that many had no choice. Why not find a friend who will sponsore them?? Does illegal immigration cause a burden to our economy??? I say yes and no. We get cheaper items because we dont mind people working for shit wages and pay into the system and dont get any of that money back. They cause a burden with unpaid medical expenses, insurance premiums going up, schools being over crowded and creating special classes for them. Will they ask for reperations if they were given amnesty for all the taxes they paid??? I am sure they will but I doubt they will get anything since they came here illegally, bought fake ID's, so who's problem is that??

 

[Justin24]

Spanish is hard to learn at first but it will get easier in the end.

I grew up in a country (Indonesia) that has one "national" language and thousands of completely distinct local languages. I lived in Switzerland for about a year...they have I believe 4 official languages. I never met anyone there who wasn't at least bi- if not tri-lingual. And recently living in Mali where the "official" language is of the colonial occupiers, the French, everyone speaks at least one local language and usually more depending on their geographic location. You could be ethnically from the Dogon tribe and speak Dogon because it's what you speak at home, live in an area where the Peuls are the dominant group and also speak Peul in order to get practical business done, speak Bambara because it really is the unofficial language of Mali (again to get business done) and hopefully some French that you learned in school (if you had a chance to go) to do school and/or government business.

I guess I can't be bothered to be upset if one more language is added to the roster of our linguistic homogeneous country. I'd like to learn Spanish one of these days. I'm busy with Chinese at the moment, but hopefully this will be the next one on my list.

 

[adrball]

reading those kind of comments just makes me feel so frustrated, it is like, illegal or not, we were some kind of menace for you

I'm probably getting too involved in this topic, but I did because I think the UK faces similar issues.

Legal and controlled immigration is GOOD for many reasons. It allows for different people to mix and form a healthy cohesion, and ensure that resources can cope. No-one is a menace if they're making a contribution,.

But why would anyone choose to enter illegally and not expect to be treated differently?